Gay "in denial"....and Gay-to-straight theraphy

[Wilber]

The older I get, the more I realize that life is just too short for this kind of shit. Look after your own damn life and stop trying to remake others so they fit in your pigeon hole.

[guyser]

Oh man,if you want your laugh of the day and go to the People can change website. Click around on some of the iterms on the front page in order to see what these people can do.

For the record , no one should classify this website as anything other than quackery.

DO these folks even read their own website. FOr a website the promotes reversing the gay feelings one has they advertise this...

Men leave the weekend with new insights, new feelings of brotherly love and self love

Oh I bet they do.

Under the heading " Does it work" they have convince me of their stellar record with these facts....

In follow-up surveys of men who took the JiM weekend between 6 months and 6 years earlier, about 75% report a decrease in homosexual feelings (yay I learned to repress things better)and behaviors. Also:

• About 90% of men who responded to the survey are less distressed over their same-sex attractions now.( Yea, I still get excited seeing guys in the shower, its just that I am less distressed now. )
  
• More than half report an increase in heterosexual attractions.( Well , I best be getting some so women look out!)
  
• Two-thirds of married men say their marriages have improved since "JiM."
  
• In addition, a large majority report feeling more masculine, more confident and powerful. They have more and better male friendships. They feel better about themselves and have more peace in their lives.( Repression works ! Woot!)
  
• About 95% say they would recommend the Journey Into Manhood weekend to others (Duh, go and feel some brotherly love of your own)
  

But this one seals the validity of the whole change thingy these folks are foisting on suckers.....

It is not professional therapy; it is a peer-led experience run by men who have been where you are now.

No pro therapy, just a bunch of dudes who can teach happy regression in a weekend, culminating in a feeling of brotherly love .

Fahbulous!

By the way betsy, great find. This should really bolster your arguments now.

Edited December 12, 2012 by guyser

[cybercoma]

Thanks for bringing that up, guyser. I mean to write about that earlier and didn't get around to it. This counselling not professional, although as we can see from the website, they cloak themselves in the language of professionals, using statistics and showing pseudo-scientific results of their "therapies."

It's no better than feng shui or homeopathy. In reality, someone that needs serious mental help could be damaged even further by these quacks.

[Smallc]

Perhaps too many straight people are choosing to live a gay lifestyle by choice. Let's be honest here I've seen lots of people who seem straight but lead a gay lifestyle by choice, it is happening everyday.

If you're not Mr. Canada, you sure sound like him.

[betsy]

People can change their behaviors, yes, but they don't become "un-gay." They don't lose their attraction to the same sex, only to replace it with an attraction to the opposite sex - any more than people could be counselled to become gay. But the question is - why should they change?

Their behavior changed, yes. But again, why should it have to change? Any more than heterosexuals' behavior should change?

Why is there even such a website? Why would people even give such "testimony," if they hadn't felt as if they needed to change?

What "works?" Denying their natural instincts in order to be accepted by society?

All we can do is speculate about all the whys. If it really interests you, perhaps it is best to contact those people in that website and ask them. They're the ones going through it....

[Mighty AC]

I completely agree with your rejection of the claim that they don't want to be gay because they would rather be straight; it's that they would rather not be abused by society any more.

Exactly, in certain times and places the same could be said about those born black, Jewish, as a Dalit, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the oppressed individual; it is the abhorrent abusers that need to be reprogrammed. I find it amazing that these bigots delude themselves into believing discrimination based on sexual orientation is somehow different than race or class based hatred.

[betsy]

Here, you are shifting the subject from whether adults who want their relationships recognized and receive the same respect that everyone else in society should have the same rights - to - whether young men need therapy after being sexually violated when they were children. Need I remind you that your side is the one that feeds the abuse! Because it's your side that shames homosexuals and drives them into the closet in the first place, where they may act out in unacceptable ways. And when abuse occurs, some churches respond with damage control, rather than dealing with the problem honestly:

Catholic Church Paying to Defend Convicted Child Molesters

What makes you think that respect is the only motivating factor why a gay wants to become straight? Your mind could only connect the dot from homosexuality to religion. Your tunnel's got only one exit - and it's religion!

I'm saying there are other possible reasons! We're talking sexuality! The victim impact statement I gave showed the victim got into SEX ADDICTION, among other things! You talk as if you're an authority on the subject. Never mind bringing the discussion to church bashing! If you want to bash the chruch, create your own church-bashing thread! No one's stopping you. I've already urged you several times to have your own thread - instead of trying to hijack each and every thread in your attempt to bring it to the same old same old church gripes by WIP!

You never did answer the question, btw. Are you by any chance a disgruntled gay because your church refused to change its doctrine to suit you?

Anyway...never mind. Don't bother. It might just lead to one of your explosive tirades.

[Sleipnir]

What makes you think that respect is the only motivating factor why a gay wants to become straight?

Because of negative peer pressure from the society who cannot accept them for who they are.

[betsy]

Speaking of confusions....

Am I just confused, or am I truly bisexual/gay?

http://www.psychforums.com/sexuality/topic29850.html

[Sleipnir]

Speaking of confusions....

Homosexuality: sexual attractions exclusively between the same sex to the exclusion of the opposite sex.

Heterosexuality: sexual attractions between the opposite sex to the exclusion of the same sex.

Bisexuality: sexual attractions exclusively between both of the two sex.

Female - Male bisexuality ratio:

50-50 bisexuality: equal sexual attraction between male and female.

40-60 bisexuality: sexually more attracted to males than females.

60-40 bisexuality: sexually more attracted to females than males.

25-75 bisexuality: sexually mainly attracted to males, sometimes females.

75-25 bisexuality: sexually mainly times attracted to females, sometimes males.

10-90 bisexuality: sexually almost always attracted to males, but rarely females.

90-10 bisexuality: sexually almost always attracted to females, but rarely males.

Asexual: attracted to neither sex.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Sleipnir

[cybercoma]

I'm saying there are other possible reasons! We're talking sexuality! The victim impact statement I gave showed the victim got into SEX ADDICTION

Homosexuality is not a sex addiction. What the hell is wrong with you? First pedophilia, now you liken it to a behavioural disorder. Being gay is not a dysfunction. Persecuting people because they don't love the kind of person you believe they should is dysfunctional and anti-social. Seek help.

[cybercoma]

Homosexuality: sexual attractions exclusively between the same sex to the exclusion of the opposite sex.

Heterosexuality: sexual attractions between the opposite sex to the exclusion of the same sex.

Bisexuality: sexual attractions exclusively between both of the two sex.

Female - Male bisexuality ratio:

50-50 bisexuality: equal sexual attraction between male and female.

40-60 bisexuality: sexually more attracted to males than females.

60-40 bisexuality: sexually more attracted to females than males.

25-75 bisexuality: sexually mainly attracted to males, sometimes females.

75-25 bisexuality: sexually mainly times attracted to females, sometimes males.

10-90 bisexuality: sexually almost always attracted to males, but rarely females.

90-10 bisexuality: sexually almost always attracted to females, but rarely males.

Asexual: attracted to neither sex.

I prefer the conceptual model that I posted earlier. You should go back and take a look at it. It's the post with the genderbread person. Follow the link.

[Wilber]

Really, whether someone is born gay or choses to be gay is their business. I really don't see why others feel the need to stick their faces in it.

[Sleipnir]

What the hell is wrong with you?

Apparently plenty

I prefer the conceptual model that I posted earlier. You should go back and take a look at it. It's the post with the genderbread person. Follow the link.

Will do, thanks for the recommendation.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Sleipnir

[BC_chick]

Homosexuality is not a sex addiction. What the hell is wrong with you? First pedophilia, now you liken it to a behavioural disorder. Being gay is not a dysfunction. Persecuting people because they don't love the kind of person you believe they should is dysfunctional and anti-social. Seek help.

There is a difference between a pedophile and a child-molester. A pedophile is exclusively attracted to children. He grooms the child and falls 'in love' with his victim and believes the relationship is consensual. Child-molesters are typically married men who abuse their own kids or the kids in their access. They know what they do is wrong, but they are master manipulators. All pedophiles are child-molesters but not all child-molesters are pedophiles.

In this sense, pedophilia is classified as a disorder. The abuser is either willfully deceitful or they have delusions about the nature of their exploitations.

However, in some ways it mirrors orientation in the sense that the attraction is innate and there is a continuum. For example, 4% of men have pedophilic tendencies to varying degrees and many never act on it. In the scientific community there is a general consensus that pedophiles and child-molesters can't help their sexual attraction to children any more than I can help being attracted to men.

Having said that, even if we were to whole-heartedly embrace the idea that pedophilia is merely an sexual-orientation, there is simply no comparison to a sexual orientation that is between two consenting adults.

That's the part that the Betsies of the world can't seem to grasp for some strange reason.

ETA - I purposely used the male pronoun when referring to pedophiles because that's most often the case - 96% of pedophiles are men.

Edited December 12, 2012 by BC_chick

[betsy]

Really, whether someone is born gay or choses to be gay is their business. I really don't see why others feel the need to stick their faces in it.

That's right. No one should label and stereo-type all gays into one lump. If a gay is miserable being gay, so badly enough that he wants to go to these therapy to become straight, he should be able to do so without anyone insisting, "No, you cannot change!"

[betsy]

BC_chick' timestamp='1355303506' post='863804

There is a difference between a pedophile and a child-molester. A pedophile is exclusively attracted to children. He grooms the child and falls 'in love' with his victim and believes the relationship is consensual. Child-molesters are typically married men who abuse their own kids or the kids in their access. They know what they do is wrong, but they are master manipulators. All pedophiles are child-molesters but not all child-molesters are pedophiles.

In this sense, pedophilia is classified as a disorder. The abuser is either willfully deceitful or they have delusions about the nature of their exploitations.

However, in some ways it mirrors orientation in the sense that the attraction is innate and there is a continuum. For example, 4% of men have pedophilic tendencies to varying degrees and many never act on it. In the scientific community there is a general consensus that pedophiles and child-molesters can't help their sexual attraction to children any more than I can help being attracted to men.

Having said that, even if we were to whole-heartedly embrace the idea that pedophilia is merely an sexual-orientation, there is simply no comparison to a sexual orientation that is between two consenting adults.

That's the part that the Betsies of the world can't seem to grasp for some strange reason.

ETA - I purposely used the male pronoun when referring to pedophiles because that's most often the case - 96% of pedophiles are men.

DUH!

Nicely romanticized version..... but full of bull, BC Chick. Your little "lecture" above only accomplished showing you are so very ignorant about the difference between a pedophile and a child molester. Sorry. But true.

Here, let me separate the facts from the bull....

Paedophilia is a disorder. It is defined as:

Noun 1.

paedophile - an adult who is sexually attracted to children

There is no law against paedophilia. You can be sexually attracted to children, and you can fantacize having sex with children all you want, and you can freely do so, AS LONG AS IT'S ALL JUST IN YOUR HEAD or just a FANTASY!

A child molester, on the other hand, commits a crime by doing the act of sexually abusing children.

It is defined as:

Noun 1.

child molester - a man who has sex (usually sodomy) with a boy as the passive partner.

There are however, other acts that falls under the definition of child molester

Diagnostic criteria for pedophilia

Pedophilia is a well-known disorder. It's defined by the American Psychiatric Association in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, DSM-IV-TR.

You may be familiar with the main features of this disorder, but we want to be sure you understand the importance of some of the details.

To be diagnosed with pedophilia, a person must:

• be sexually aroused by, have intense, recurring sexual fantasies of, or be involved in sexual behavior with a prepubescent child or children (generally 13 years or younger);
  
• be aroused by, have sexual fantasies of, or be involved with a child for at least six months.;
  
• be at least 16 years old, and
  
• be at least five years older than the child or children he or she is attracted to.
  

http://www.childmole..._the_cause.html

In other words, if a person falls into the criteria given above, he is a paedophile! A child molester can be a paedophile. And vice versa, IF, the paedophile acts on his fantacies. Emphasize on the word, ACTS.

So with you saying, "All pedophiles are child-molesters"......that was a wrong statement!

A pedophile becomes a child molester ONLY when he actually molests a child. Comprende?

As to your percentages of 96% of pedophiles are men, where did you pluck that number? Picked it up among the flowers? Thin air? The fog? Or tabloid headline, too?

The diagnosis of females with the disorder pedophilia is exactly the same. However, we are concentrating on male pedophiles because they come into either the mental health or criminal justice system in huge numbers. Of the over 16,000 people in the original sample in the Child Molestation Prevention Study, only 601 were women. Of the 4,000 people who admitted to being a child molester, only 1.4 percent or 55 of them were women. However, female sexual abusers do present a problem. In reports of daycare workers who are abusers, women account for 40 percent.

http://www.childmole..._the_cause.html

So we see this isn't all that simple, either! I hope that was beneficial to your enlightenment. You're welcome, btw.

The BC Chicks of this world - and there's lots of them on this board - imagine themselves the "authority" on a lot of issues.....they're so good with posturing. But when you really read what they say - it clearly shows how very little they know.

Edited December 12, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

This was moved from the topic, Darwin.

Yes! I'll go with what the sleazy tabloids say about Hollywood stars living in denial when it shows up in the Enquirer. You see, the three main tabloids are all owned by the same company. One prints pure bullshit, another prints rumours that get passed around, but the Enquirer gets their stories through checkbook journalism, so when they have a story...like the one about John Edwards impregnating a secret mistress, the odds are it's a real story that will eventually surface in the MSM. Whenever I'm in the supermarket checkout line, I notice that the stories about Obama being a secret Muslim, being secretly gay, having other women, still using drugs, being an illegal etc. are splashed all across the other two tabloids on a constant basis, but not on the main brand! And that's because the company that owns these tabloids is rightwing extremist, so they make sure the other two have all the crap about Obama that doesn't really matter, but like rightwingers in general, they give Obama a free pass on doing nothing...not even mentioning the poor...doing nothing on climate change...expanding U.S. wars of aggression and the military budgets...NDAA and other attacks on civil rights etc. etc., all these things that should have had some opposition from somewhere, get stuffed by the way the U.S. two party system functions....but getting back to the issue at hand, yes, if it's in the Enquirer, they probably bought an insider's testimony to get the story!

No, I'm not gay, and I've will have been officially married for 25 years this January....not including the almost 3 years prior that we lived together in sin! And, of course I am aware that there are many men and women who are gay or highly bisexual, who have lived secret lives, while putting on the front of conventional marriage to please their families, their church communities and society in general. But, I want to see those days when gays have to live in denial, and young gay men have to be careful in public to avoid attack, all come to an end! Most of the reason why gays would live in denial in the first place and have a sham cover marriage, is because of the type of brainwashing that you were subjected to and wish to subject others to!

I've heard Brother Ray talk on this subject, and he spouts the conventional rightwing evangelical line; but the way him and Kirk interact....especially the fondling of that banana in the video, left a lot of people wondering what was being said at a subconscious level! All I know is I like bananas, I make sure we have plenty at home, especially in the winter time, but I have never felt the impulse to fondle a banana!

And, on a public forum, those of us who refrain from posting personal information about ourselves so we can feel more freely in speaking our minds, would have no need to hide whether we were gay or straight, or whether or not we support gay rights. But, in my personal life fwiw, I pretty much say the same thing on this topic whenever I hear gay bashers or the stupid comments that were bandied about before gay marriage was recognized regarding gays attempting to 'recruit' children into their lifestyles. People should be accepted the way that feels natural to them. There should be no such things as "reparative therapies" to try to turn gays straight. We don't come into this world off some cookie cutter assembly line! People are all different, and have different needs. There are not even sharp lines between what's normal for each gender. Some males seem effeminate, while some females are quite masculine in behaviour. It does seem from casual glance that effeminate men have a bigger problem gaining acceptance than butch women. But that's getting off topic too, and these behaviours do not even track specifially along the lines of who's gay and who's straight anyway.

Thanks, I'll go check it out, because I believe your views on social issues are more of a concern for others than whether or not you accept the theory of evolution.

They may've gotten some scoops accurate....but not all.

The Enquirer openly acknowledges that it will pay sources for tips, a practice generally frowned upon by the mainstream press. At least one prominent story, connected to the Elizabeth Smart case, had to be retracted after it was revealed that two informants had fabricated false information. The informants had been paid a large sum for the story^{[citation needed]}.

The tabloid has struggled with declining circulation figures due to competition from glossy tabloid publications. As of 2010, the National Enquirer sells for $3.49 on newsstands in the United States. Subscription rates are $1.90 per issue for 52 issues, and $2.40 for 26.

Noted stories and lawsuits

http://en.wikipedia....tional_Enquirer

The way they put out their stories - they're sensationalized. How much is fact...how much are pure suggestive innuendoes to make the story more appealing to the public that want to see dirt on the high and mighty celebrities who live charmed lives - just like the way you want to see dirt on whom you call hypocritical Christians. The more dirt the better, huh? Even if only part of it is accurate....and the rest are all paddings.

I guess you approve of libel/slander, and infringement on privacy, and what tantamounts to symbolical public "stoning"- as long as it's Christians we're stoning and shaming in public. They deserve it, don't they....for having their silly little doctrine, that don't want to accept homosexuality as a normal lifestyle.

[Sleipnir]

That's right. No one should label and stereo-type all gays into one lump. If a gay is miserable being gay, so badly enough that he wants to go to these therapy to become straight, he should be able to do so without anyone insisting, "No, you cannot change!"

No gays on Earth want to be straight for the heck of it - do your research.

Here, let me separate the facts from the bull....

Paedophilia is a disorder. It is defined as:

Noun 1.

paedophile - an adult who is sexually attracted to children

Pedophilia is not a sexually, get it through your thick skull

A child molester, on the other hand, commits a crime by doing the act of sexually abusing children.

It is defined as:

A sexual attraction, not a sexual orientation - do your research.

In other words, if a person falls into the criteria given above, he is a paedophile! A child molester can be a paedophile. And vice versa, IF, the paedophile acts on his fantacies. Emphasize on the word, ACTS.

So with you saying, "All pedophiles are child-molesters"......that was a wrong statement!

A pedophile becomes a child molester ONLY when he actually molests a child. Comprende?

Why do I get the feeling you're condemning homosexuality but defending the acts of pedophilia?

Well this thread only proves how little she knows of the gay/lesbian topic.

[Black Dog]

That's right. No one should label and stereo-type all gays into one lump. If a gay is miserable being gay, so badly enough that he wants to go to these therapy to become straight, he should be able to do so without anyone insisting, "No, you cannot change!"

Nah they should be allowed to feel that who they are is OK without sanctimonious, superstitious pricks getting on their case.

[Wilber]

That's right. No one should label and stereo-type all gays into one lump. If a gay is miserable being gay, so badly enough that he wants to go to these therapy to become straight, he should be able to do so without anyone insisting, "No, you cannot change!"

If someone is unhappy let them go to a professional who's intent is to produce a well adjusted person who is comfortable with their sexuality whatever it may be, not someone who wants to rebuild them in their own image

[Moonlight Graham]

From Wikipedia:

The Bible contains several references to slavery. The Bible does not condemn slavery, but in fact supports the regulated practice of it, especially under the Old Testament, but also in the New Testament. Male Israelite slaves were to be offered release after six years of service, with some stipulations.Foreign slaves and their posterity became the perpetual property of the owner's family,except in the case of certain injuries.

The regulation of slavery in the Bible, and absence of outright condemnation of it as an institution, was later used to justify slavery by its defenders.

This is to show why the Bible shouldn't be taken as "the word of God" by fundamentalists. And if fundamentalists like betsy reject homosexuality and gay marriage based on their reading of the Bible, then they should also have no problem whatsosever with the practice of slavery either.

Slavery in the US and elsewhere was justified based on Christian grounds, partly from references found in the Bible. Now, homosexuality and gay marriage is rejected by many Christians based on Biblical interpretations. Same with birth control. Christian fundamentalists have been on the wrong side of history numerous times. Time for them to get an education on the history of the Bible, how it was written and who exactly wrote it.

[cybercoma]

That's right. No one should label and stereo-type all gays into one lump. If a gay is miserable being gay, so badly enough that he wants to go to these therapy to become straight, he should be able to do so without anyone insisting, "No, you cannot change!"

Nobody argued that at all. The issue is that there's absolutely no obstacle to a gay person being straight. Unless of course they're not actually straight and only doing it to escape persecution. Then their own denial of self is a massive obstacle.

[cybercoma]

No gays on Earth want to be straight for the heck of it - do your research.

Pedophilia is not a sexually, get it through your thick skull

A sexual attraction, not a sexual orientation - do your research.

Why do I get the feeling you're condemning homosexuality but defending the acts of pedophilia?

Well this thread only proves how little she knows of the gay/lesbian topic.

Because religion is a hell of a drug. It'll make you do vile and repulsive things that you wouldn't otherwise do. Like comparing a loving sexual relationship between consenting adults to f***ing children.

What's worse is you can't even say she doesn't know any better because it has been explained to her repeated throughout this thread. She's intentionally doing it and it's disgusting.

[betsy]

If someone is unhappy let them go to a professional who's intent is to produce a well adjusted person who is comfortable with their sexuality whatever it may be, not someone who wants to rebuild them in their own image

Yes. Not to be stereo-typed that all gays just want to be accepted as gays. That's why I've been enphasizing about these gays in question as being, adults.

Shouldn't the gay person have any say in it at all? What kind of "change" he'd like to have?

Where he wants to go? What therapy he thinks he needs?

I know of a group of Christian gays who decided to a vow of celibacy. They have their own support system.

Edited December 12, 2012 by betsy