Gay "in denial"....and Gay-to-straight theraphy

[Mighty AC]

Because religion is a hell of a drug. It'll make you do vile and repulsive things that you wouldn't otherwise do. Like comparing a loving sexual relationship between consenting adults to f***ing children.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

The root of this ridiculous therapy idea is that Betsy feels compelled to follow 2,000 year old beliefs that favours hate and discrimination over humanism. In this thread, she is pretending that her motivations are something other than religious. Unfortunately, this topic disappears without her Bible sanctioned belief that it is unacceptable to be homosexual.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Mighty AC

[betsy]

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

The root of this ridiculous therapy idea is that Betsy feels compelled to follow 2,000 year old beliefs that favours hate and discrimination over humanism. In this thread, she is pretending that her motivations are something other than religious. Unfortunately, this topic disappears without her Bible sanctioned belief that it is unacceptable to be homosexual.

Yeah. Like Hitler, and the way he made a lot of people believe in the absurdity that the Jews were not really human! Then they committed the atrocities of slaughtering the Jews. Now, we are being forced to believe in the absurdity that the fetus being carried by a human female is not human....so we can all rejoice in a guilt-free slaughterfest! Nothing really new, eh?

Ha-ha. Here's another alleged quote by Voltaire.

The famous, genius, philosopher sneered,

In no more than one hundred years,

Intellects like mine will make the Bible disappear.

But alas; Au Contraire, Voltaire,

After you were dead and buried, Mon Frère,

They printed new Bibles at your own Demeure

Voltaire - whose house was located at 47 rue de clichy, Paris, was later used by the British and Foreign Bible Society (based in London), then by the French Bible Society. Today, the "French Protestant federation of France" occupies it.

You know what? You are focusing on my belief. You are unable to separate that from the issue, can you? And discuss the issue on the grounds that they are being presented? You just have to make it about me.

I know why. Because you cannot refute the arguments I've presented without appearing irrational, and ignorant. Trying to refute a very solid argument will make you look immature in your inability to grasp it. So of course, my religion is the convenient scape goat!

I won't be too unkind and rub your nose in it....so I'll just say, whatever.

Whatever floats your boat.

I hope you know how to swim.

Edited December 12, 2012 by betsy

[guyser]

I know of a group of Christian gays who decided to a vow of celibacy. They have their own support system.

Lets be honest, you dont know a group of gay christians at all. For one they would not want to know or talk w such a sanctimonious pious person such as you.

Secondly , you virtually spit on the sidewalk at the mere mention of gays.

Funny, no reply about the website you recommended? Not surprising though. It shoots all your idea down anyhow.

Do yourself a favour, open your eyes to reality. You are seriously deluded on this issue.

Sure sure...you know

[GostHacked]

Yes. Not to be stereo-typed that all gays just want to be accepted as gays. That's why I've been enphasizing about these gays in question as being, adults.

Shouldn't the gay person have any say in it at all? What kind of "change" he'd like to have?

Where he wants to go? What therapy he thinks he needs?

If the gays want help they will seek it out themselves. You cannot force a person to change, they have to do it willingly on their own. And if they are not changed even by willingly seeking help, then they 1) never wanted to change to begin with 2) have accepted that they are the way they are.

Denying who and what you are only leads to psychological problems later on in life.

I know of a group of Christian gays who decided to a vow of celibacy. They have their own support system.

So if they want to be celibate then that is their choice. However that does not answer the question of their sexual orientation.

[Mighty AC]

Yeah. Like Hitler, and the way he made a lot of people believe in the absurdity that the Jews were not really human! Then they committed the atrocities of slaughtering the Jews.[/Quote] Exactly. Believing in the absurdities in the Bible is the root of your discrimination against a class of human beings. Using your Hitler reference and my current understanding of your beliefs about homosexuals: Your slice of Christianity would be Hitler and the Jews could be made human and therefor be saved if they went through some de-Jewification therapy.

You know what? You are focusing on my belief. You are unable to separate that from the issue, can you? And discuss the issue on the grounds that they are being presented? You just have to make it about me.[/Quote]

Maybe I misunderstand your beliefs then. Please answer these questions and clarify them for me. Do your beliefs allow you to support equal rights for homosexuals? Is it acceptable for same sex couples to marry, raise a family, split pension income, be each other's next of kin? Should homosexual teens be free to pursue relationships with whomever they wish without fear of assault, ridicule or pressure to seek help for their "condition"?

Edited December 12, 2012 by Mighty AC

[Wilber]

Yes. Not to be stereo-typed that all gays just want to be accepted as gays. That's why I've been enphasizing about these gays in question as being, adults.

Shouldn't the gay person have any say in it at all? What kind of "change" he'd like to have?

Where he wants to go? What therapy he thinks he needs?

I know of a group of Christian gays who decided to a vow of celibacy. They have their own support system.

My issue isn't with people who are uncertain of their sexuality and want help, it's with people who are unable to accept a person who's sexuality is different from their own.

Please explain the difference between a group of gays who take a vow of celibacy and a group of straights who take a vow of celibacy.

[betsy]

Exactly. Believing in the absurdities in the Bible is the root of your discrimination against a class of human beings. Using your Hitler reference and my current understanding of your beliefs about homosexuals: Christianity would be Hitler and the Jews could be made human and therefor be saved if they went through some de-Jewification therapy.

Nope. Christianity couldn't be Hitler.

In Hitler's political relations dealing with religion he readily adopted a strategy "that suited his immediate political purposes."^[76] According to Marshall Dill, one of the greatest challenges the Nazi state faced in its effort to "eradicate Christianity in Germany or at least subjugate it to their general world outlook" was that the Nazis could not justifiably connect German faith communities to the corruption of the old regime, Weimar having no close connection to the churches.^[77] Because of the long history of Christianity in Germany, Hitler could not attack Christianity as openly as he did Judaism, Communism or other political opponents.^[77] The list of Nazi affronts to and attacks on the Catholic Church is long.^[78] The attacks tended not to be overt, but were still dangerous; believers were made to feel that they were not good Germans and their leaders were painted as treasonous and contemptible.^[78] The state removed crucifixes from the walls of Catholic classrooms and replaced it with a photo of the Führer.^[79]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Maybe I misunderstand your beliefs then. Please answer these questions and clarify them for me. Do your beliefs allow you to support equal rights for homosexuals? Is it acceptable for same sex couples to marry, raise a family, split pension income, be each other's next of kin? Should homosexual teens be free to pursue relationships with whomever they wish without fear of assault, ridicule or pressure to seek help for their "condition"?

My belief has little to do with my arguments. So no point scratching there.

We're talking about adult gays, who for some reasons of their own are miserable being gays - so much so that they wanted to go through therapy to find the peace or fulfillment or answer or whatever it is they feel they need. Be it church-sponsored, religion-based or traumatic experience....the fact is that they want some change. This all boils down to choice. Simple as that.

You guys want to lump them all together and stamp a label on them as one and the same - and I say no. Each one is an individual with his own history. That you guys want to keep bringing up my faith and belief only shows that to most of you.....your perspective is so confined and you are fueled by your petty little agenda: anti-religion.

It's unbelievable how some try dishonest debating by taking my words or explanations out of context. Futile to discuss with a dishonest poster - and also futile to discuss with someone who cannot understand! It's like arguing with a kindergarten about the meaning life. So I just ignore those posters. If I'm not responding to them - that means they're on the "kindergarten" list.

So I'm responding to you Mighty AC because I think you're not being dishonest....and you seem to be trying. But I'm getting tired of doing the merry-go-round with you. So get in the game. We cannot have a meeting of minds if we are not on the same page.

Edited December 12, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

My issue isn't with people who are uncertain of their sexuality and want help, it's with people who are unable to accept a person who's sexuality is different from their own.

Oh. Well, the topic is about those who are uncertain, unhappy of their sexuality and want help.

Please explain the difference between a group of gays who take a vow of celibacy and a group of straights who take a vow of celibacy.

None.

[GostHacked]

My belief has little to do with my arguments. So no point scratching there.

This is a load of bull. Your beliefs creep into each and every argument you are trying to put forth and debate.

We're talking about adult gays, who for some reasons of their own are miserable being gays - so much so that they wanted to go through therapy to find the peace or fulfillment or answer or whatever it is they feel they need. Be it church-sponsored, religion-based or traumatic experience....the fact is that they want some change. This all boils down to choice. Simple as that.

So if we are talking about gay adults, then stick to that. Your tangent on pedophilia and other behaviors don't help clarify whatever point it is you are trying to make.

You guys want to lump them all together and stamp a label on them as one and the same - and I say no. Each one is an individual with his own history. That you guys want to keep bringing up my faith and belief only shows that to most of you.....youyr perspective is so confined and you are fueled by your petty little agenda: anti-religion.

No one has lumped them together. However you have managed to lump several groups together to try and make an argument here.

It's unbelievable how some try dishonest debating by taking my words or explanations out of context. Futile to discuss with a dishonest poster - and also futile to discuss with someone who cannot understand! It's like arguing with a kindergarten about the meaning life. So I just ignore those posters. If I'm not responding to them - that means they're on the "kindergarten" list.

So I'm responding to you Mighty AC because I think you're not being dishonest....and you seem to be trying. But I'm getting tired of doing the merry-go-round with you. So get in the game. We cannot have a meeting of minds if we are not on the same page.

There is only one person in this thread that is being dishonest, and it's not Mighty AC.

You are still my fave troll Betsy.

[Black Dog]

We're talking about adult gays, who for some reasons of their own are miserable being gays - so much so that they wanted to go through therapy to find the peace or fulfillment or answer or whatever it is they feel they need. Be it church-sponsored, religion-based or traumatic experience....the fact is that they want some change. This all boils down to choice. Simple as that.

Ask yourself why someone would feel terrible about their god-given sexuality. What possible reason could there be for hating who you are? It's because of hate-filled people like you and institutions like the Church.

Only a clueless tool or an ignorant prick would pretend that the issue of people wanting to change their sexuality is somehow separate from (hopefully declining) social views of homosexuality that are still promoted by bigots.

[cybercoma]

Maybe I misunderstand your beliefs then. Please answer these questions and clarify them for me. Do your beliefs allow you to support equal rights for homosexuals? Is it acceptable for same sex couples to marry, raise a family, split pension income, be each other's next of kin? Should homosexual teens be free to pursue relationships with whomever they wish without fear of assault, ridicule or pressure to seek help for their "condition"?

She's never going to address this because it would require reflexivity, something betsy is demonstratively lacking.

My belief has little to do with my arguments. So no point scratching there.

See what I mean. She sidesteps and ignores inconvenient questions and anything that requires introspection and critical reflection.

Oh. Well, the topic is about those who are uncertain, unhappy of their sexuality and want help.

Fine. Riddle me this, betsy. Let's talk about people that are uncertain and unhappy of their sexuality and want help.

What about straight people that are uncertain and unhappy about being straight and want to become gay. Do you share your concern for them as well?

Ask yourself why someone would feel terrible about their god-given sexuality. What possible reason could there be for hating who you are? It's because of hate-filled people like you and institutions like the Church.

Only a clueless tool or an ignorant prick would pretend that the issue of people wanting to change their sexuality is somehow separate from (hopefully declining) social views of homosexuality that are still promoted by bigots.

This is exactly the point that betsy absolutely refuses to acknowledge or understand because it means, once again, being reflexive and critically evaluating her beliefs. It hasn't happened in years and it's not going to happen today. She's too busy trying to keep this thread on track about criticizing people that support homosexuals for forcing the poor oppressed gays to continue being gay when they really don't want to. It's patently absurd.

[Wilber]

Ask yourself why someone would feel terrible about their god-given sexuality. What possible reason could there be for hating who you are? It's because of hate-filled people like you and institutions like the Church.

Only a clueless tool or an ignorant prick would pretend that the issue of people wanting to change their sexuality is somehow separate from (hopefully declining) social views of homosexuality that are still promoted by bigots.

To be fair, there are Christian denominations that do embrace gays and have openly gay people in their hierarchy.

[guyser]

Please explain the difference between a group of gays who take a vow of celibacy and a group of straights who take a vow of celibacy.

The former will have better decorations.

The latter will be nerdy and play X box .

[WIP]

For something that should be a factual issue, there has been remarkably little (zero) scientific evidence presented throughout this thread. Either sexual orientation can change throughout one's lifetime, or it cannot. If it can change throughout one's lifetime, what factors can influence it.

Now, I happen to agree with cybercoma when he says that sexual orientation is not binary, but a spectrum. And, I think people can move where precisely they fall on that spectrum throughout their life.

I made that point too, early on and with a couple of reference links, indicating that viewing human sexuality as a spectrum of preferences is the preferred explanatory model today for clinicians. And I also tried to stress the point....which didn't seem to take hold as well....that the perceived differences between male and female sexuality are more than just superficial perceptions. It's not just imagination and male fantasies...women really are more open to bisexual behaviour than men are; and may change preferences between men and women during their lifetimes. But, I don't believe that this is happening very often in men. One of the reasons one of my links observed that female sexuality is less well understood than male sexual behaviour is because male sexual arousal becomes very fixed, at least by the time we reach adulthood. That's why my source noted that most of the talk about homosexuality focuses on male homosexuality, and leaves lesbianism in a void where it is largely ignored as a serious topic for research.

So, in this argument about the merits of so called "reparative" therapies, the main problem I have with this is that we still live in a society that does not regard homosexuality as completely normal for those people who are inclined towards it. I'm not even happy with the scenario of a fundamentalist Christian family putting their teenage daughter into some kind of reparative therapy if she declares herself attracted and interested in girls, even if it is more likely that she will change her sexual interests than a teenage boy. It is still coercive mind control. And when it is applied to boys, I can't see any sort of upside to this; it should be declared child abuse if it's forced on a minor, case closed!

[WIP]

Fine. Riddle me this, betsy. Let's talk about people that are uncertain and unhappy of their sexuality and want help.

What about straight people that are uncertain and unhappy about being straight and want to become gay. Do you share your concern for them as well?

Interesting! If I got changed to become gay would I finally have a sense of fashion and an ability to match colours and textures?

[GostHacked]

Interesting! If I got changed to become gay would I finally have a sense of fashion and an ability to match colours and textures?

Nah, I know some gays who have a horrible sense of fashion.

[WIP]

What makes you think that respect is the only motivating factor why a gay wants to become straight? Your mind could only connect the dot from homosexuality to religion. Your tunnel's got only one exit - and it's religion!

I'm saying there are other possible reasons! We're talking sexuality! The victim impact statement I gave showed the victim got into SEX ADDICTION, among other things! You talk as if you're an authority on the subject. Never mind bringing the discussion to church bashing! If you want to bash the chruch, create your own church-bashing thread! No one's stopping you. I've already urged you several times to have your own thread - instead of trying to hijack each and every thread in your attempt to bring it to the same old same old church gripes by WIP!

You never did answer the question, btw. Are you by any chance a disgruntled gay because your church refused to change its doctrine to suit you?

Anyway...never mind. Don't bother. It might just lead to one of your explosive tirades.

And you didn't answer my question: are you, by any chance a closeted lesbian denied by her community and her own dogmas the capacity to express your sexual arousal towards women? Is that the reason for your obsession with what or what not homosexuals are doing?

My "tirades" go way beyond the gay/straight issues to how your kind of religion gives tacit approval for our sexually obsessed, materialistic culture, but responds by shaming and denying all unfortunate people with some sort of sexual obsession that is damaging their personal lives and their own sense of worth.

Your kind of Christianity makes people act worse than they otherwise would to others, and allows itself to be used to justify greed, materialism, nationalism and lauds the powerful who oppress the weak and impoverished. There is nothing of merit to your Christianity, because rather than doing what religion is supposed to -- provide people hope and relief from their troubles in this world, and challenge the rich and the powerful, your Christianity does the exact opposite! Your Christianity is the equivalent to the Judaism of the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus's day....who made public displays of their holiness through their rigid observance of the Law and application of it to others - including executing those charged with breaking the Law, but used their superficial holiness to curry favour with the wealthy and the Roman overlords of Judea. Is that any different than the modern right wing Christian following the Prosperity Gospel to varying degrees?

If Jesus were to come back and judge this world, who would face his wrath? Would it be those who lost faith, those who broke sexual codes and moral rules, or those who enriched themselves at the expense of everyone else? Well...obviously it depends on which of the Gospels you want to use for your authority....but the Jesus of the Gospel of John forced the crowd bent on following the Law, who were about to stone the prostitute on strict, legal grounds to back down. In that parable, it wasn't the woman who broke the Law...who likely had been forced into a life of prostitution out of necessity who was the sinner -- instead, it was those self-righteous men who surrounded her with rocks in hand, bent on carrying out the Law, with no consideration of context or underlying motives of people. So, I'm guessing that Jesus coming back would be extremely bad news for Pat Robertson and his ilk, and Republican politicians like Scott Walker, who somehow can harmonize fundamentalist Christianity with their most important religion- worshiping the market.

[WIP]

Nah, I know some gays who have a horrible sense of fashion.

Yer probably right! I wonder if that stereotype leaves some gays with the expectation that they should be able to pick out the right clothes or know how to decorate a home.

[Moonlight Graham]

For something that should be a factual issue, there has been remarkably little (zero) scientific evidence presented throughout this thread. Either sexual orientation can change throughout one's lifetime, or it cannot. If it can change throughout one's lifetime, what factors can influence it.

Now, I happen to agree with cybercoma when he says that sexual orientation is not binary, but a spectrum. And, I think people can move where precisely they fall on that spectrum throughout their life. Let's say that on the axis between homosexual and heterosexual, one is close to the homosexual side but not 100% at the end. Well, let's say they happen to have a relationship with an opposite sex partner, and that relationship turns out to be very fulfilling, so much so that said individual couldn't imagine being in a relationship with someone else. You don't think said life experience would have changed that person's preferences, changed the way they think about their sexuality, in fact moved them on that spectrum of sexual orientation?

To me that seems like the default position, that, like almost every single other manifestation of human behavior, sexual orientation is a combined result of biological predisposition and life experiences. In order to believe that it is 100% pre-set biologically and completely unalterable through life experiences, I would need to see some solid scientific evidence demonstrating that.

You're stating claims/opinions too, yet there's zero reference to scientific studies in your post either.

I think we're all just too lazy to look them up. At least I am.

[Mighty AC]

My belief has little to do with my arguments. So no point scratching there.

We're talking about adult gays, who for some reasons of their own are miserable being gays - so much so that they wanted to go through therapy to find the peace or fulfillment or answer or whatever it is they feel they need. Be it church-sponsored, religion-based or traumatic experience....the fact is that they want some change. This all boils down to choice. Simple as that.[/Quote]

I'm trying to get you to see how the source of the pain is important. Maybe this example will help:

A boy is relentlessly bullied at school. He fears going to school, feigns illness, hides in the washroom during recess but regardless of his attempts to avoid harm, he is attacked multiple times per week. The boy notices that the girls at his school do not physically bully one another and decides he would be happier as a girl. Let's pretend that age is not an issue for sex change procedures. Should a therapist help the boy with his request or help the boy deal with the root issues?

[Sleipnir]

Oh. Well, the topic is about those who are uncertain, unhappy of their sexuality and want help.

Yeah right and I'm the pope of Spain.

We cannot have a meeting of minds if we are not on the same page.

you have few hundred pages to catch up on.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Sleipnir

[Bonam]

You're stating claims/opinions too, yet there's zero reference to scientific studies in your post either.

I think we're all just too lazy to look them up. At least I am.

I am too. But if I was interested enough in this topic to have posted several dozen times in this thread, arguing at length, as some posters have, I would have gone and looked up some scientific evidence.

[Bonam]

Ask yourself why someone would feel terrible about their god-given sexuality. What possible reason could there be for hating who you are? It's because of hate-filled people like you and institutions like the Church.

People who are homosexual may want to be heterosexual because they may want to have and raise children of their own and be fulfilled in the relationship in which they are doing so. This would have nothing to do with any third party opinions of said individuals.

[Moonlight Graham]

I'm going to try to go completely and ridiculously gay over the next week and see if I can change. I'll let you all know the results.

[Mighty AC]

The latter will be nerdy and play X box .

Ha ha...true and it will be more of a lack of opportunity than a vow.