F-35 Purchase Cancelled; CF-18 replacement process begins

[wyly]

And from the very bottom of the link in the OP:

Not the slightest bit concerned……..Since it was never planned that we would make our actual purchase until after the next federal election, does anyone wish to bet that the winner of said fighter competition isn’t announced until late 2015 or early 2016?

A cagey political move by the Government that just defused one of the main attacks against them by the Peanut Gallery…………

Don’t believe me……..Notice there is no mention of Canada leaving the JSF partnership in the “storey” (And I use such term lightly)

As I said several days ago in reference to John Ivison’s piece and the graphic linked to by Cybercoma, the National Post is guilty of sloppy, lazy journalism.

it's gone, done like dinner... the conservatives are backing away looking for a way out to save face...this golden plated pig ain't gonna fly...

[Guest Derek L]

it's gone, done like dinner... the conservatives are backing away looking for a way out to save face...this golden plated pig ain't gonna fly...

Then why is the CBC saying different? And why no news of Canada leaving the JSF program?

[wyly]

I'm surprised that people are who are on the left aren't singing the praises of the Harper government. They've been screaming about wanting this for months, maybe years and it's happened now. The left wing supporters here should be dancing in the streets, I don't understand why they aren't.

seriously, praise harper?... he was embarrassed into doing this...he wouldn't have done if could have got away with it, he doesn't want this hanging around his neck...

[wyly]

Then why is the CBC saying different? And why no news of Canada leaving the JSF program?

ahh that would be publicly admitting the opposition forced them into it...a slow exit makes look like it was their idea...

[login]

Something like this wouldn't have been that bad.

http://www.defensene...-Block-Purchase

But I think that what is really needed is a mixed force.

A 4 billion purchase of 33 planes would be a good mix for Canada. but I think the problem is the US isn't really offering national support to Canada to buy its jets. Theres no doubt they would be used for US security issues anyway. I think the bottom line is the US doesn't need or want Canada to have these jets, otherwise it would offer DOD support to the jets.

Edited December 7, 2012 by login

[Guest Derek L]

ahh that would be publicly admitting the opposition forced them into it...a slow exit makes look like it was their idea...

O-K.........And let’s say they hold a competition and the F-35 wins on “merit”, would that mean it was rigged by the Government or would the Opposition accept that?

[Merlin]

seriously, praise harper?... he was embarrassed into doing this...he wouldn't have done if could have got away with it, he doesn't want this hanging around his neck...

Yes, you should be praising him as he is doing as you and your kind have asked him to do. It's a great victory for the left, it must feel wonderful.

[wyly]

O-K.........And let’s say they hold a competition and the F-35 wins on “merit”, would that mean it was rigged by the Government or would the Opposition accept that?

it can't win it's an over priced pig and will only become more expensive over time (defense acquisitions always do)and not something we need, there are planes that meet our requirements for much less money...the fact we cannot buy the required minimum number of planes makes the entire process futile... Edited December 7, 2012 by wyly

[wyly]

Yes, you should be praising him as he is doing as you and your kind have asked him to do. It's a great victory for the left, it must feel wonderful.

the opposition deserves praise for highlighting the issue and forcing harper to back away, he didn't do it because he wanted to...

[Merlin]

We need more planes. What's important is that Canada is going to get them. Our air force deserves the very best equipment we can get for it, whatever shape that takes, so be it. Our pilots deserve to fly the best equipment we can get them. Let's rally behind our troops and support them instead of trying to drag them down.

[login]

my thought was a simple holy sh1t

40 billion!!!!!!

[Moonbox]

the opposition deserves praise for highlighting the issue and forcing harper to back away, he didn't do it because he wanted to...

The opposition doesn't deserve any praise for anything. They highlight and criticize EVERY issue by default. If anyone deserves praise it's the PBO and the auditor general...you know...people who actually have a clue and aren't just wetting their pants over EVERYTHING.

[wyly]

Something like this wouldn't have been that bad.

http://www.defensene...-Block-Purchase

But I think that what is really needed is a mixed force.

A 4 billion purchase of 33 planes would be a good mix for Canada. but I think the problem is the US isn't really offering national support to Canada to buy its jets. Theres no doubt they would be used for US security issues anyway. I think the bottom line is the US doesn't need or want Canada to have these jets, otherwise it would offer DOD support to the jets.

really why do we need a carrier version o f the F35 or even a STOL version?

[Smallc]

That carrier version may be somewhat useful to us, as it has slightly increased range, a stronger landing gear, and probe and drogue already installed.

[DogOnPorch]

wooo hooo!...well this should kill the other thread at 249 pages!

now we can switch the topic to more sensible options, super hornet, typhoon, or rafale...maybe the russians have something to offer at a great price...

[DogOnPorch]

Canada to go with proven design.

[Moonbox]

Gee we haven't seen/heard that joke about 5000 times on this forum. I guess that's the direction you take though, when the fantasy costing figures you and LM have been insisting on get completely debunked.

[DogOnPorch]

Gee we haven't seen/heard that joke about 5000 times on this forum. I guess that's the direction you take though, when the fantasy costing figures you and LM have been insisting on get completely debunked.

Nieuports should work just fine for Canada's airshow needs.

[Wilber]

O-K.........And let’s say they hold a competition and the F-35 wins on “merit”, would that mean it was rigged by the Government or would the Opposition accept that?

From his reply, it looks like that would be a No.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I would like to see the government show us how this should be done. Give them the free hand as to how this unfolds now. Some folks have mentioned Canadian content and I agree with them. This is a very expensive project and I would like to think that our government knows how much of this money being spent has to actually leave the country. Is it not reasonable to suggest the public interest could best be served by spending as little money outside of the country as possible?

There are more than simply two dimensions to this question regarding defense procurements. The F 35 is the best choice before counting the dollars, but those same dollars may in fact be the reason for the demise of the program in Canada. Other options can be explored, there is the potential for building the aircraft in Canada under license. It has been elsewhere suggested that Bombardier could partner with a European firm to build one of their aircraft here. There are in fact many ways to get this done, the F 35 may or may not be the governments choice, but the citizens are now looking at the programs costs and are asking questions. That is a good thing.

The F 35 program has problems in the USA, that is known. Costs have escalated, that is known. Canadians now have the opportunity to pause and rethink the purchase. Where we go from here is important because the expense is very significant and sharply in public focus. The Harper government may have created more of a public relations problem than they think now that the media is bringing Canadian content into the question. The backside of the proposals I have read are the involvement of Bombardier is the very real existing debt the company has with the nation. Throwing good money after bad will have traction, but of course from my view Bombardier would get the chance to PAY BACK what they already owe.

Is not the question of Canadian content in this program of vital relevance?

[Moonbox]

Good points Jerry. That's pretty articulate and fair.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Good points Jerry. That's pretty articulate and fair.

Thanks but what about Canadian content....where do you stand with that.

[DogOnPorch]

Thanks but what about Canadian content....where do you stand with that.

If it's felt that a strategic air force of some sort is not needed in Canada, we could devote our money to cheaper aircraft that suit a particular mission or a particular conflict. Whichever one we're knee deep in at the moment. If we're not going to be world policemen, then there's an argument for no air force at all outside S&R. Many feel the Russians and Chinese aren't a serious military threat anymore...so why bother with interceptors or any pricey jets? If we really want to keep an eye on the North...launch a satellite or three.

[wyly]

From his reply, it looks like that would be a No.

are you not paying attention? the military wanted a minimum 65 planes to be effective for our needs and that was when the price was claimed to be 9 billion, now rumors are the all-in cost will be between 40-45billion that 65 number is now a fantasy, this golden flying pig is dead...my guess is it's the super hornet... Edited December 8, 2012 by wyly

[login]

really why do we need a carrier version o f the F35 or even a STOL version?

Well its not just for carriers they are short take off meaning they are more versatile. If you've ever seen these things hover over you you know how impressive they are, bombing something from a stationary hover is pretty cool you could even do search and rescue with it if you put some type of recovery tool in the bombay... mach 2 search and recovery....

none the less it is nice to have a mix of possibilities.. but having the support is useful. I'm not 100% against the project as I think it is good to have a few stealth aircraft, but putting all the blood into them is a bit of a nonsense or having the lifespan go to 40 years.. I think this plane will be way obsolte sometime in the next decade.

now for 1/2 of

$45,802,000,000 , no

but if the US wants to buy at their rate and transfer them to Canada with Canada paying the US that 4 billion for those jets, and offer technical support it may be more viable, as they would be used for Norad and US wars over seas regardless. If Canada is to be a US satalite it should expect the US to offer support, otherwise there is little incentive for Canada to do it.

As stated my buy ins would be a few every year starting around 2016 for about 5 years. (about 1 billion per year, that would come direct from the DND budget) but I would also ramp into it with f18s and Rafael.... or a Canadian option or all of the above. The cost wouldn't be higher than just buying f35's actually it would offer more aircraft by trimming off a chunk of the high costing F35s.

Personally I like the VTOL F35's the best and if it was a choice the whole order would be the VTOLS even if only 21 of them. (in addition to about 21 F18superhornets, and 14 Rafael, and 42 Arrow II's provided they are built right.

Fact is the VTOLs are more operable and can land and take off from a whole lot more places which is indispensable. I've seen these things used in deckplans in place of helicopters meaning if Canada planned properly it could put these things on its ships or use ships as "jump points" to extend range without need of aerial refuling. They are just strategically way more useful.

Here is the B landing

http://www.gizmag.co...g-at-sea/20051/

I don't get why people ask, why more than one type of aircraft.. its useful to have cards.

Even 14 instead of 21 with cost increases would still be a go.

Of course my buys are with a much different budget and different tax structure too... since my total policy plan is to restructure the public debt and insure 0 deficit budgeting.

The main benefit of the f35b's is that they can be forward based away from regular airfields.

Edited December 8, 2012 by login