punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Selective hearing? Why don't you ask why the NDP is so quiet about the ship building program? You seem to be a hypocrite just like the NDP, accusing the government of lying while the NDP is lying to the Canadian public and endangering the lives of members of the military for political points... Again the government should take this argument to the Canadian people then. I have yet to hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I'm hearing through the grapevine that all the nations that were into the F-35, are now looking at the Eurofighter Typhoon because its everything the F-35 wasn't. The decision will be made in 24 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I'm hearing through the grapevine that all the nations that were into the F-35, are now looking at the Eurofighter Typhoon Mind providing some proof of this grapevine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Again the government should take this argument to the Canadian people then. I have yet to hear it. Why? Why should the government have to take it to the Canadian people? The NDP is accusing the government of lying so by not touching the ships then they prove that its political and the government was right all along and that the NDP was and is lying. Think about the sudden about turn if the government was to give maintenance contracts to companies in NDP riding? Suddenly this becomes one big non issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The ship building contracts are all in Canada. The money stays here, invested in OUR economy and OUR citizens. The aircraft contract was for the profits of other nations and investors, why not do it at home? Save the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Except for all the defense contract money that will leave Canada for firms like Lockheed Martin, Thales, Siemens, Raytheon, General Electric, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) Why? Why should the government have to take it to the Canadian people? The NDP is accusing the government of lying so by not touching the ships then they prove that its political and the government was right all along and that the NDP was and is lying. Think about the sudden about turn if the government was to give maintenance contracts to companies in NDP riding? Suddenly this becomes one big non issue. WOW a Conservative asking why big money items should be taken to the Canadian people. How the mighty have fallen. Again go ahead make that argument if you want but don't have an election on an issue to get a mandate then be surprised the Canadian people are angry when they find out you willingly lied to them. Edited December 8, 2012 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 And if the pig wins a competition and shows it can wipe the floor with the Super Hornet and its ilk? Do you think we should hang our future for the next 30 years on an aircraft that is already outclassed? what kind of nonsense is this, now you have us fighting our nato partners who may be flying f35's....the super hornet is superior to any plane flown by third world nations we may confront, the only "potential" adversary with possibly better equipment is the chinese ...and we aren't going to war with any super power regardless what kind of plane we buy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The ship building contracts are all in Canada. The money stays here, invested in OUR economy and OUR citizens. The aircraft contract was for the profits of other nations and investors, why not do it at home? Save the money. Well we can buy the fighters from the US for 9 billion dollars or we can develop them in Canada for 300 billion dollars... I wonder which one is more affordable.Designing an aircraft from scratch costs a lot of money, the US designs the aircraft and places a substantial purchase and when we put our little 65 plane purchase it is affordable but when we design, build and field the aircraft in Canada we need to sell an unrealistic amount just to break even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Well we can buy the fighters from the US for 9 billion dollars or we can develop them in Canada for 300 billion dollars... I wonder which one is more affordable. Designing an aircraft from scratch costs a lot of money, the US designs the aircraft and places a substantial purchase and when we put our little 65 plane purchase it is affordable but when we design, build and field the aircraft in Canada we need to sell an unrealistic amount just to break even. All great arguments. I just wonder why they were never made in 2011? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) what kind of nonsense is this, now you have us fighting our nato partners who may be flying f35's....the super hornet is superior to any plane flown by third world nations we may confront... Technically, that is not true for air combat, as Iran's F-14's in the right hands will outperform Canadian Uber Bugs, even if they existed. Iranian F-14s shot down at least 160 Iraqi aircraft during the Iran-Iraq war, which include, 58 MiG-23s, 23 MiG-21s, nine MiG-25s, 33 Dassault Mirage F1s, 23 Su-17s, one Mil Mi-24, five Tu-22s, two MiG-27s, one Dassault Mirage 5, one B-6D, one Aérospatiale Super Frelon, and two unknown aircraft Edited December 8, 2012 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 WOW a Conservative asking why big money items should be taken to the Canadian people. How the mighty have fallen. Again go ahead make that argument if you want but don't have an election on an issue to get a mandate then be surprised the Canadian people are angry when they find out you willingly lied to them. Willingly lied to them? Like the NDP did and still does? The main fault of this government is that they seem to be allergic to presenting their argument in an understandable way which leads to the NDP crooks to play the honest party. We will buy a replacement aircraft, that is not in question what is in question is wether the NDP will raise up enough stink to cover up their lies and thus force us to buy an aircraft that will cost us more in the long run and cost us lives because of the reduction in capabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 All great arguments. I just wonder why they were never made in 2011? so thats what you are basing your position on "we lied but the Conservatives didn't call us out on it therefore they are the liars and bad guys"? Kind of destroys your position don't you think? You are not arguing that the NDP lied you are arguing that the conservatives failed to all them out on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 so thats what you are basing your position on "we lied but the Conservatives didn't call us out on it therefore they are the liars and bad guys"? Kind of destroys your position don't you think? You are not arguing that the NDP lied you are arguing that the conservatives failed to all them out on it. No one lied. I don't know where you are getting this from. Harper was asked point blank about the PBO's estimate and acted like the PBO was wrong. That is how it is sorry. Again this isn't the NDPs bid they didn't run the 2011 election on this. Sorry the NDP aren't the Liberals you plan of blaming everything on the opposition is going to fall flat with the Canadian people because it is absurd. Harper is the one with the Majority government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) Well its not just for carriers they are short take off meaning they are more versatile. If you've ever seen these things hover over you you know how impressive they are, bombing something from a stationary hover is pretty cool you could even do search and rescue with it if you put some type of recovery tool in the bombay... mach 2 search and recovery....stationary bombing ? eew enemy sam batteries are gonna love that tactic...F35 search and rescue that's the most ridiculous idea yet, you may have heard of another invention specifically designed for such uses, it's called a helicopter...I wonder what it would be like to search for someone on the ground at mach2 ...none the less it is nice to have a mix of possibilities.. but having the support is useful. I'm not 100% against the project as I think it is good to have a few stealth aircraft, but putting all the blood into them is a bit of a nonsense or having the lifespan go to 40 years.. I think this plane will be way obsolte sometime in the next decade. any plane we pick will be obsolete long before the 40 yr lifespan is up, pilot-less drones will be the next generation of defense...plane performance is limited by pilot endurance, eliminate the pilot and you can build a smaller faster more maneuverable plane at less cost...The main benefit of the f35b's is that they can be forward based away from regular airfields.waste of money we'll never use it... Edited December 9, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Well we can buy the fighters from the US for 9 billion dollars or we can develop them in Canada for 300 billion dollars... I wonder which one is more affordable. Designing an aircraft from scratch costs a lot of money, the US designs the aircraft and places a substantial purchase and when we put our little 65 plane purchase it is affordable but when we design, build and field the aircraft in Canada we need to sell an unrealistic amount just to break even. I read that it was 40 billion for 65 aircraft and the Arrow proposal was for 120 planes at 9 billion. Those are not my numbers plucked out of thin air. There is a company that claims to be able to make 120 Arrows for 9 billion dollars. It took a lousy 5 years to build the first Arrow from scratch and they fly away the prototype as a production model. We had to literally design and construct every single system in the aircraft. There never was anything like it before, and we did it in five years. How soon do folks think we were going to get F35's, not a day before 2016 and stretching out until 2023....seven more years to get 65 planes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 No one lied. I don't know where you are getting this from. Harper was asked point blank about the PBO's estimate and acted like the PBO was wrong. That is how it is sorry. Again this isn't the NDPs bid they didn't run the 2011 election on this. Sorry the NDP aren't the Liberals you plan of blaming everything on the opposition is going to fall flat with the Canadian people because it is absurd. Harper is the one with the Majority government. Because the PBO used a different formula, Mr Harper was well within his rights considering every purchase for the military since he came to office was made using the same formula as the F35's. Saying the government lied because someone somewhere used a different formula is stupid to say the least, but the NDP took up the flag and went to fight the conservatives at every point because they "lied" all the while conveniently ignoring that the same formula was used for the Naval and CG projects where if using the formula presented for the F35s would bump the price to 300 billion at least, something contrary to desire of the NDP. The price tag that was given out was the cost of the planes, the extra 24 billion is not in extra cost, it is already there for the CF18's and will be there for any fighter regardless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kward Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 We don't need F35s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 We don't need F35s. OK...what will Canada use to bomb Iraqis, Serbs, or Libyans in 25 years ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 We need something. The F-35, F/A-18E/F, and Typhoon are all going to be around the same price (the typhoon may be more). The Rafale may cost a bit less, and the Gripen does cost less, but at least in the case of the Gripen, it is not in any way ideal. I think it will probably come down to the Rafale and the F-35. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I read that it was 40 billion for 65 aircraft and the Arrow proposal was for 120 planes at 9 billion. It is 14 billion for the F35's I think and that is the purchase of the aircraft the rest of the cost is in manpower and infrastructure as well as weapons and such. The whole point is that if we develop our own aircraft it will be prohibitively expensive as the US placed an order more than 2,400 planes while other nations placed roughly 600 planes on order. The development cost of the aircraft is split upon all the aircraft, if there are more nations buying suddenly the cost drops if there are only 120 planes on order suddenly the entire development and infrastructure falls only on the 120 aircraft. So either we buy American Aircraft or we become very convincing as to why the US should place an order for 2400 aircraft with us. Those are not my numbers plucked out of thin air. There is a company that claims to be able to make 120 Arrows for 9 billion dollars. Yes, but when we use the same calculation as is being used on the F35 it would jump up to 35 billion. Also why would we spend 9 billion on an aircraft that was outdated 50 years ago? It took a lousy 5 years to build the first Arrow from scratch and they fly away the prototype as a production model. And technology is much more advanced now while we don't have the same the same infrastructure or experience as post war canada of 60 years ago. We had to literally design and construct every single system in the aircraft. There never was anything like it before, and we did it in five years. Again this is after the Second World War and we had the expertise and infrastructure to do so while now we are short on both and will be facing serious competition just like 60 years ago. How soon do folks think we were going to get F35's, not a day before 2016 and stretching out until 2023....seven more years to get 65 planes. And designing an aircraft simply for an order of 120 planes is going to be much more expensive then buying 4 times the number of F35's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 There are three different numbers being dealt with. The cost of the aircraft, the cost of maintaining the aircraft, and the cost of operating the aircraft. The last number is the hardest to predict over 42 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I know that is what Harper thinks and that is what Conservatives think that the Canadian people are idiots. With very little knowledge, and very easy to manipulate. Yup. . However the NDP don't. Oh, of course they do. If you want to buy these planes then turn public opinion around but you don't do that by lying to the people telling it costs one thing while knowing it costs something else. I have never seen full life cycle costs included in any public announcement of a major government spending project, be it a power plant, a new office building, public housing, vehicles, or roads. When a new highway is announced we get the costs to build it, and that's it. They don't include the full costs of maintenance over the next twenty odd years. The reason the opposition want to include the full cost is simply to scare and outrage people, precisely because they know how ignorant the public is. And suddenly they claim doing anything else is lying. Even though that's the way every government has done it forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 With very little knowledge, and very easy to manipulate. Yup. Oh, of course they do. I have never seen full life cycle costs included in any public announcement of a major government spending project, be it a power plant, a new office building, public housing, vehicles, or roads. When a new highway is announced we get the costs to build it, and that's it. They don't include the full costs of maintenance over the next twenty odd years. The reason the opposition want to include the full cost is simply to scare and outrage people, precisely because they know how ignorant the public is. And suddenly they claim doing anything else is lying. Even though that's the way every government has done it forever. All of your arguments are great. My question and the Canadian people's question is why weren't they made when we had an election on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 All of your arguments are great. My question and the Canadian people's question is why weren't they made when we had an election on this issue. So your position is that the conservatives didn't lie, they just suck at explaining themselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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