punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) So if the F-35 proves to be the right aircraft for our operational needs, the NDP will support it. Right? That is what Jack said in the 2011 debates if you were watching and listing while Harper was saying only an Idiot would do what he is doing presently. Edited December 8, 2012 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 That is what Jack said in the 2011 debates if you were watching and listing. Jack is gone. What will the NDP do when their bluff is called ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Again the Navy ships bidding and contact WAS AN NDP IDEA put forward by MP Peter Soffer I am not sure why they would be against an idea THEY CAME UP WITH! You need to spend more time researching your talking points because they look stupid. But the calculation was not even close to the same, no one counted the 200+ sailors per ship, the hundreds of sailors who are needed to maintain and support those ships from shore or the manpower needed to keep them afloat. Then no one added the infrastructure and everything else mainly because when presented with 300 billion dollar price tag for the ships people might be ever so slightly pissed off. Your logic is that its ok to use a formula as long as the project is either supported by the NDP or benefits the NDP but if it does not benefit the NDP but rather the CPC then we should use an inflated formula. Use the same formula for all projects or none at all because right now you are complaining about the lies of the Government while praising the lies of the NDP. If Harper wanted to make all the points you are making he could have in 2011 when he ran an election on this issue. PM Harper does not need to make the point, he knows we need the new ships, what is needed is one intelligent and fair news source that dives deep in the issue and pointing out the hypocrisy of the NDP. He didn't instead he avoided the question and repeated his talking points. So what was he to do? The AG, the PBO, and the opposition have all now said those talking points were wrong and the Canadians people are angry about that. And yet no one is angry about the lies of the NDP its ok to add the "full" cost to the F35's but we will not fight to have the same formula applied to the shipbuilding program because we pushed for it... that means you will hold the government accountable but will not hold yourselves accountable... They aren't dumb if what you say is now the party line then he should have said in 2011 but that might have cost him 16 seats in parliament and he needed his majority so it was just easier to lie to the people. It is not about the PM, it is about the NDP... the NDP is calling the government liars for presenting a cost using the same formula for both project, one benefits the NDP and therefore the formula is perfectly ok the other does not benefit the NDP and suddenly its lying. He had a chance, he was asked the question, he was asked to explain his answer. Maybe if he and the Conservative party didn't treat Canadians like dummies the Military wouldn't be a place where they are going to be hurting because of a tug of war between the Conservative and popular opinion. THIS IS THE PRICE FOR LYING. The Liberals paid and now the Conservatives are paying it. Will of the people runs this country get use to it. Did the CPC lie about the full cost of the ship building program? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Jack is gone. What will the NDP do when their bluff is called ? We might just find in the future now the Conservatives have admitted their whole 2011 election argument was BS and their mandate is tarnished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 That is what Jack said in the 2011 debates if you were watching and listing while Harper was saying only an Idiot would do what he is doing presently. Is Jack around? The NDP will never support the F-35. They can't, because they've been completely dishonest with the Canadian people about the costing. Quote and citation please. The NSPS does not include lifecycle costs. The NDP want that as a model for the NGF competition (which it now is) His numbers were over 30 years while the AG did 42 years. The same reason why the DND numbers were different from both. Which is a fine explanation that the Conservatives could have used in the 2011 debates they didn't however. Instead they choose to treat Canadians like idiots. His numbers were A + B over time. The AGs numbers were A + B + C. They weren't at all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 But the calculation was not even close to the same, no one counted the 200+ sailors per ship, the hundreds of sailors who are needed to maintain and support those ships from shore or the manpower needed to keep them afloat. Then no one added the infrastructure and everything else mainly because when presented with 300 billion dollar price tag for the ships people might be ever so slightly pissed off. Your logic is that its ok to use a formula as long as the project is either supported by the NDP or benefits the NDP but if it does not benefit the NDP but rather the CPC then we should use an inflated formula. Use the same formula for all projects or none at all because right now you are complaining about the lies of the Government while praising the lies of the NDP. PM Harper does not need to make the point, he knows we need the new ships, what is needed is one intelligent and fair news source that dives deep in the issue and pointing out the hypocrisy of the NDP. So what was he to do? And yet no one is angry about the lies of the NDP its ok to add the "full" cost to the F35's but we will not fight to have the same formula applied to the shipbuilding program because we pushed for it... that means you will hold the government accountable but will not hold yourselves accountable... It is not about the PM, it is about the NDP... the NDP is calling the government liars for presenting a cost using the same formula for both project, one benefits the NDP and therefore the formula is perfectly ok the other does not benefit the NDP and suddenly its lying. Did the CPC lie about the full cost of the ship building program? Again your arguments could have been made WHEN WE HAD AN ELECTION ON THIS ISSUES. Harper instead choose to lie to the Canadian people. We don't like people who lie to us. Sorry case closed, he had a whole election to make any argument you are making now instead he choose to paint the opposition as the villains and say "Just Trust Me". Which is what Canadians did and now as we learn we were mislead he looses that "just trust me" mandate. I am sorry we had an election on this issue, this issue was pretty much the whole focus of the election why weren't these arguments made then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Again your arguments could have been made WHEN WE HAD AN ELECTION ON THIS ISSUES. Harper instead choose to lie to the Canadian people. Again, Harper is not the one lying. The NDP is lying, and you're lying on their behalf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I really want to know what will happen when the bidding process is going through and suddenly the cost of the F35 drops down to 14 billion right along with the other aircraft... how will the opposition explain that one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 His numbers were A + B over time. The AGs numbers were A + B + C. They weren't at all the same. Which is what the Conservatives should have said in 2011. We were mislead. Again I bet we would be buying the F35s and our military would be better off if the Conservatives just treated the Canadian public like adults in 2011 but they didn't. They might not have gotten their majority but at least they would have their mandate on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I really want to know what will happen when the bidding process is going through and suddenly the cost of the F35 drops down to 14 billion right along with the other aircraft... how will the opposition explain that one? We are about to find out aren't we? Although I suspect the damage is done already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Again, Harper is not the one lying. The NDP is lying, and you're lying on their behalf. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I don't know what the Criteria will be, but I don't see the F/A-18E/F as a valid option because of the fact that it won't be un use in 40 years by anyone else. The Typhoon may be, but it is expensive. That leaves the F-35, the Rafale, and the Gripen. I agree that the F-18E/F is a non starter but while the others may be among the best currently operational fighters, they have all been in service 10 years or more, so they aren't the future. The Gripen has been around for 15 years and the Rafale for 13. I think the real question is whether the F-35 will live up to its specification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Oh, I agree with you Wilber, but, like I said, I don't know the criteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Again your arguments could have been made WHEN WE HAD AN ELECTION ON THIS ISSUES. Harper instead choose to lie to the Canadian people. How did he lie? The government used the same formula that they have used since they took office, no one complained about any of the other projects but suddenly the F35 is being counted in a different way? You are lying because you are trying to present the ship building project as an NDP project that uses formula x and therefore it is an amazing project and the NDP should be praised for ti, while the CPC is using formula x for the F35 and they are therefore liars. We don't like people who lie to us. Thats why the NDP will not last long. Sorry case closed, he had a whole election to make any argument you are making now instead he choose to paint the opposition as the villains and say "Just Trust Me". Again you are trying to cover up that the NDP is fighting one project while ignoring the other. If the government were liars why not challenge them on the ship building project for the navy and the CG? Which is what Canadians did and now as we learn we were mislead he looses that "just trust me" mandate. I am sorry we had an election on this issue, this issue was pretty much the whole focus of the election why weren't these arguments made then? Why didn't the NDP bring these argument then as well? They could have pointed out that the government used the exact same formula for both project and therefore they are liars... now you are trying to say they are liars for the F35 but for the naval project they are a ok because its supported by the NDP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Oh, I agree with you Wilber, but, like I said, I don't know the criteria. Right, will the criteria be political, economical or operational? The first two generally turn out to be more expensive in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 How did he lie? The government used the same formula that they have used since they took office, no one complained about any of the other projects but suddenly the F35 is being counted in a different way? You are lying because you are trying to present the ship building project as an NDP project that uses formula x and therefore it is an amazing project and the NDP should be praised for ti, while the CPC is using formula x for the F35 and they are therefore liars. He had plenty of opportunities to make that very point. Yet he never did in 2011. He should have though I bet he still would have won. Again you are trying to cover up that the NDP is fighting one project while ignoring the other. If the government were liars why not challenge them on the ship building project for the navy and the CG? If the Conservatives want to cancel the Shipbuilding and blame it on the NDP they can. If they don't then they can just shut their mouths can't they? Why didn't the NDP bring these argument then as well? They could have pointed out that the government used the exact same formula for both project and therefore they are liars... now you are trying to say they are liars for the F35 but for the naval project they are a ok because its supported by the NDP. They were never asked this question. Unlike Harper who was asked repeatedly about his costing vs. other costing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Right, will the criteria be political, economical or operational? The first two generally turn out to be more expensive in the long run. I think it will probably be operational and cost related, given the model that they're using, but I don't know when everything is considered, who will come out on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 We are about to find out aren't we? Although I suspect the damage is done already. The NDP lied and you are lying for them... somehow it makes it ok in your mind to calculate the cost one way if it benefits you but if it does not benefit you it should be calculated in the most ridiculous way possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 He had plenty of opportunities to make that very point. Yet he never did in 2011. He should have though I bet he still would have won. The is an unimportant point, and it isn't even accurate, so I'm not sure why you keep saying it over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The NDP lied and you are lying for them... somehow it makes it ok in your mind to calculate the cost one way if it benefits you but if it does not benefit you it should be calculated in the most ridiculous way possible. Nope. Unless, Citation and quote I will be waiting for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 He had plenty of opportunities to make that very point. Yet he never did in 2011. He should have though I bet he still would have won. And what give the NDP an opportunity to fight him as the defender of the working people whom Mr Harper is trying to put out of work? Can you see it? If he had used this argument suddenly the NDP would cry that this would cost 10,000 jobs and billions of dollars in investment in areas that need it... If the Conservatives want to cancel the Shipbuilding and blame it on the NDP they can. If they don't then they can just shut their mouths can't they? Again you seem to ignore that the NDP finds fault in one but not the other, simply because one benefits them while the other does not... They were never asked this question. Unlike Harper who was asked repeatedly about his costing vs. other costing. No but if the NDP was honest and had any integrity they would level the same accusations about both project but if they do they face losing votes in the affected regions. That is where the hypocrisy comes in, you are trying to shovel bullshit our way saying that Mr. Harper should have done this or that but ignore that the NDP called the man a liar but were awfully quiet about the project that benefits their riding. That is hypocrisy at its worst and soon the Canadian public will realize that the NDP is nothing but crooks that try to score points regardless of how many lives will be put on the line for their political gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Nope. Unless, Citation and quote I will be waiting for this. F35 is all over the news because the government "lied"... 30 billion dollar ship building program is not in the news even though its with the same formula... Both are conservative government programs both were calculated the same way one is ok the other apparently makes the government liars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Oh, but just wait until it comes time to pick ships for the shipyards to build. They will have guns, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 F35 is all over the news because the government "lied"... 30 billion dollar ship building program is not in the news even though its with the same formula... Both are conservative government programs both were calculated the same way one is ok the other apparently makes the government liars... I have yet to hear this argument come from Harper. In fact all have heard is the NDP was right from the get go and it took me the Conservatives years to come around. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I have yet to hear this argument come from Harper. In fact all have heard is the NDP was right from the get go and it took me the Conservatives years to come around. Sorry. Selective hearing? Why don't you ask why the NDP is so quiet about the ship building program? You seem to be a hypocrite just like the NDP, accusing the government of lying while the NDP is lying to the Canadian public and endangering the lives of members of the military for political points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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