Keepitsimple Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) Funny....it started out as $15 billion over 20 years - $750 million per year. Then Kevin Page said $29 billion over 30 years - One Billion per year Then the Auditor General said $25 billion over 20 years - $1.25 billion per year. Now the latest report says $45 billion over 42 years - about One billion per year. Seems the costs really weren't that far off and the reality is that we will be paying somewhere around a billion a year to have a proper airforce. Clearly, critics use the total dollars to damage the government because the per-year costs provide too much common sense perspective. The real issue is whether the F35 will be able to overcome it's development problems and if it does, will it STILL be the right solution for Canada. Edited December 8, 2012 by Keepitsimple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Because the opposition and the media don't want us spending a lot of money on the military. The whole reason we are dealing with, not the price of these aircraft, but the total operational cost of them over 35 odd years, including the pilots uniforms and dental care, is so that the larger number will outrage more people and create more political damage for the government. It's like you being presented with a bill for $150,000 to buy a Ford Focus. Your eyes get a lot bigger and you hesitate. That's why the total life price is the only one ever used by the media and opposition. Neither will ever suggest (except some of the NDP) that we don't need to buy new aircraft, but they want to damage the government as much as possible when they buy something. You seem to be blaming the opposition and media with out mentioning the Canadian people. If the Cons think this is what the people want then they should do it and go to the polls and face the electorate. Go over the oppositions head. I have feeling though they would lose that question because it has NOTHING to do with the opposition or media it has to do with the internal polls on the questions that the Cons keep seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 That just proves then that people are uninformed idiots. Jets cost money. We're going to be spending a similar amount over 40 years no matter what we buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 That just proves then that people are uninformed idiots. Jets cost money. We're going to be spending a similar amount over 40 years no matter what we buy. For sure. Plus you have an item that few people understand yet alone have seen or touched. To most folks, a jet is a jet is a jet is a jet. They roar out of the skies at the airshow and that's the last they see of them. Names and numbers mean nothing w/o context. P-80? Is that new? I dunno... Eighty is higher than 18...it must be newer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) That just proves then that people are uninformed idiots. Jets cost money. We're going to be spending a similar amount over 40 years no matter what we buy. I know that is what Harper thinks and that is what Conservatives think that the Canadian people are idiots. However the NDP don't. If you want to buy these planes then turn public opinion around but you don't do that by lying to the people telling it costs one thing while knowing it costs something else. If your team stopped treating Canadians like dummies and stopped lying to them I bet Canadians would listen and digest your argument. The Conservatives have no one but their own PR machine to blame for this mess, they didn't want to go into an election with this price tag so they low balled it and are now dealing with the fall out of lying to the people. Key message: Regardless of the cost if you lie about it, it is going to sting you. You lie to the people and they aren't going to want to hear any argument after that. If you remember the whole 2011 election was triggered by this purchase and Harper not letting the documents and saying "Just trust me". Canadians did trust him when he said that we would be exempt from the rising costs and we still get the planes for 75 million each. We have now found HE WAS LYING. He said the life time costs were going to be 14 Billion and just trust me. Now we know THAT WAS A LIE. The NDP said we should just start over this the bidding and purchasing and Harper said they were dumb for now. NOW WE FIND OUT THAT IS WHAT THE CONSERVATIVES WILL DO. Canadians gave Harper his majority on his just trust me and now we find out all of that trust was lies smallc. This has nothing to do with the planes it has to do with the Conservatives running a election knowingly lying to Canadians. The military is caught in the cross fire because of an incompetent government who could not be bothered to tell Canadians the truth. Edited December 8, 2012 by punked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) I know that is what Harper thinks and that is what Conservatives think that the Canadian people are idiots. However the NDP don't. If you want to buy these planes then turn public opinion around but you don't do that by lying to the people telling it costs one thing while knowing it costs something else. No program has ever been costed this way. Do you know what the new shipbuilding plan would be costed this way? Probably in excess of $200B. The jets still do cost $9B. No one seems to understand these realities, and the opposition sure isn't going to tell them. The media should be, but I think that it's mainly incompetence on their part. That said, I support what's about to be done, because when it's done (and I'm not even sure that the F-35 will win - the Rafale or the Gripen may in fact win on cost benefit alone) no one can say anything. Edited December 8, 2012 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 No program has ever been costed this way. Do you know what the new shipbuilding plan would be costed this way? Probably in excess of $200B. The jets still do cost $9B. No one seems to understand these realities, and the opposition sure isn't going to tell them. The media should be, but I think that it's mainly incompetence on their part. That said, I support what's about to be done, because when it's done (and I'm not even sure that the F-35 will win - the Rafale or the Gripen may in fact win on cost benefit alone) no one can say anything. Look the Conservatives dug their own hole on this. If they didn't lie to Canadians and they explained the differences in costing instead of trying to smear the PBO then they would have a leg to stand on. I bet a lot of Canadians would have supported them. Instead they ran a whole election lying about this plane. Now that those lies are being exposed because Canadians will find out the price either now or in the future they are mad. They were mad with Liberals lied and the Conservatives are treating Canadians the same way. The Conservatives promised to be open and transparent about the country and its finances and they aren't. They are losing that voting bloc, and in Canada that might be the largest voting bloc. They wanted their majority and they poll tested what to say and said it. However what they were saying was a bunch of half truths and now Canadians don't want any of it. Lesson is don't lie to Canadians. It is a real shame that the military is getting caught up in this but Canadians aren't going to support buying something unless they know the true cost and if they are lied to about these things they are very unforgiving. The argument is now more about the moral fiber of the PM then anything else. Which is why the PM is taking the advice given to him 2 years ago by Jack and reassessing the options. Seems like over the last 5 years the NDP has been right A LOT on these issues. It just takes the conservatives a while to come around on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The initial Canadian decision to engage the Joint Strike Fighter Program and resulting inertia to purchase aircraft was not started by PM Harper and the CPC. The process to become a Tier 3 partner did not include such public inspection and review, just wide eyed expectations for defense contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Lesson is don't lie to Canadians. I guess not....look what happened with the costs of a "Gun Registry". PM Harper finally put it out of its misery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The initial Canadian decision to engage the Joint Strike Fighter Program and resulting inertia to purchase aircraft was not started by PM Harper and the CPC. The process to become a Tier 3 partner did not include such public inspection and review, just wide eyed expectations for defense contracts. That does not give them the right to lie to Canadians when asked point blank the last election about the PBO's costing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I guess not....look what happened with the costs of a "Gun Registry". PM Harper finally put it out of its misery. Yep. Another huge lie what a political party paid dearly for. Great point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) No program has ever been costed this way. Do you know what the new shipbuilding plan would be costed this way? Probably in excess of $200B. The jets still do cost $9B. No one seems to understand these realities, and the opposition sure isn't going to tell them. The media should be, but I think that it's mainly incompetence on their part. That said, I support what's about to be done, because when it's done (and I'm not even sure that the F-35 will win - the Rafale or the Gripen may in fact win on cost benefit alone) no one can say anything. We are not buying a cost benefit, we are buying a fighter aircraft. If we have to rely on one single type for the next 30+ years, it had better be the best one available to fit our operational needs, not our political needs or immediate financial wishes. Edited December 8, 2012 by Wilber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signals.Cpl Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) That does not give them the right to lie to Canadians when asked point blank the last election about the PBO's costing. The PM did not lie to Canadians, he used the exact same method of calculation that the Canadian government has used for a long time the only difference is that the NDP wanted to stir up trouble and started calling it a lie. Why is the NDP so quiet about the new ships for the navy? They use the exact same formula when calculating the cost as the original calculation for the F35 yet not a peep from the NDP. One is of little benefit to the NDP politically and they lack the understanding of why we need it and then kick up a lot of dirt, while keeping quiet over the ships makes sense to them as they don't want to piss off their voter base in those regions which will be getting the new jobs and funding.That is the two faced NDP for you... Edited December 8, 2012 by Signals.Cpl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 We are not buying a cost benifit, we are buying a fighter aircraft. If we have to rely on one single type for the next 30+ years, it had better be the best one available to fit our operational needs, not our political needs or immediate financial wishes. This is pretty much word for word what Jack said in the debate in 2011. At the time maybe it didn't poll test as well as what the Conservatives were saying but it was the right thing to say. Over just a year Canadians have come to the same opinion maybe because what the NDP was saying wasn't a lie to get votes and it was actually good policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 That does not give them the right to lie to Canadians when asked point blank the last election about the PBO's costing. They didn't lie. The DND didn't even have good flight hours costs available for their own aircraft, so they used American figures and cost estimates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 We are not buying a cost benefit, we are buying a fighter aircraft. If we have to rely on one single type for the next 30+ years, it had better be the best one available to fit our operational needs, not our political needs or immediate financial wishes. I don't know what the Criteria will be, but I don't see the F/A-18E/F as a valid option because of the fact that it won't be un use in 40 years by anyone else. The Typhoon may be, but it is expensive. That leaves the F-35, the Rafale, and the Gripen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Look the Conservatives dug their own hole on this. If they didn't lie to Canadians They didn't lie. The NDP is actually lying. The Liberals are not only lying, but they're being totally dishonest in pretending that they wouldn't have done the exact same thing. and they explained the differences in costing instead of trying to smear the PBO then they would have a leg to stand on. Well yeah, they did that, and that was stupid. A simple explanation would have solved all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The PM did not lie to Canadians, he used the exact same method of calculation that the Canadian government has used for a long time the only difference is that the NDP wanted to stir up trouble and started calling it a lie. Why is the NDP so quiet about the new ships for the navy? They sue the exact same formula when calculating the cost as the original calculation for the F35 yet not a peep from the NDP. One is of little benefit to the NDP politically and they lack the understanding of why we need it and then kick up a lot of dirt, while keeping quiet over the ships makes sense to them as they don't want to piss off their voter base in those regions which will be getting the new jobs and funding. That is the two faced NDP for you... Again the Navy ships bidding and contact WAS AN NDP IDEA put forward by MP Peter Soffer I am not sure why they would be against an idea THEY CAME UP WITH! You need to spend more time researching your talking points because they look stupid. If Harper wanted to make all the points you are making he could have in 2011 when he ran an election on this issue. He didn't instead he avoided the question and repeated his talking points. The AG, the PBO, and the opposition have all now said those talking points were wrong and the Canadians people are angry about that. They aren't dumb if what you say is now the party line then he should have said in 2011 but that might have cost him 16 seats in parliament and he needed his majority so it was just easier to lie to the people. He had a chance, he was asked the question, he was asked to explain his answer. Maybe if he and the Conservative party didn't treat Canadians like dummies the Military wouldn't be a place where they are going to be hurting because of a tug of war between the Conservative and popular opinion. THIS IS THE PRICE FOR LYING. The Liberals paid and now the Conservatives are paying it. Will of the people runs this country get use to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Again the Navy ships bidding and contact WAS AN NDP IDEA put forward by MP Peter Soffer I am not sure why they would be against an idea THEY CAME UP WITH! You need to spend more time researching your talking points because they look stupid. No, you're trying to cover the dishonesty of the NDP. If they're going to criticize the government for not using full lifecycle costs for the F-35, they shouldn't point to the shipbuilding decision as a model since it also doesn't use full lifecycle costing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Again the Navy ships bidding and contact WAS AN NDP IDEA put forward by MP Peter Soffer I am not sure why they would be against an idea THEY CAME UP WITH! You need to spend more time researching your talking points because they look stupid. The NDP has been lying all along about the total life cycle costs for the shipbuilding program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Well yeah, they did that, and that was stupid. A simple explanation would have solved all of this. I agree. I think they could have gotten the plane they wanted if they stood by their conviction and just came up with a good 3 sentence answer for the question of the difference in costing. They didn't though and that makes this a lie of omission. It really is I don't know what to say. If you say the plane is going to cost 15 Billion and the other guy says 40 Billion but you costed it differently then just say that. In 2011 they instead choose to say the PBO was wrong and they were right. Then the AG stepped in back up the PBO after we had a whole election because the Conservatives would not release the costing documented to parliament and it looks pretty bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The PBO was wrong, actually. His numbers were different than those of the AG, something you don't seem to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The PBO was wrong, actually. His numbers were different than those of the AG, something you don't seem to understand. His numbers were over 30 years while the AG did 42 years. The same reason why the DND numbers were different from both. Which is a fine explanation that the Conservatives could have used in the 2011 debates they didn't however. Instead they choose to treat Canadians like idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The NDP has been lying all along about the total life cycle costs for the shipbuilding program. Quote and citation please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 This is pretty much word for word what Jack said in the debate in 2011. At the time maybe it didn't poll test as well as what the Conservatives were saying but it was the right thing to say. Over just a year Canadians have come to the same opinion maybe because what the NDP was saying wasn't a lie to get votes and it was actually good policy. So if the F-35 proves to be the right aircraft for our operational needs, the NDP will support it. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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