Ontario Teachers Strike

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Teacher's are being harassed in their daily life. This is ridiculous.

I don't envy them. Why would anyone want to become a teacher just to be hated because you chose the profession?

Funny, how a Toronto Sun article actually talks about it. I wouldn't have expected it. But, the Toronto Star has been borderline slanderous in their reporting. So... strange indeed.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/08/18/fighting-anti-teacher-blowback

Edited August 19, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Wild Bill]

Teacher's are being harassed in their daily life. This is ridiculous.

I don't envy them. Why would anyone want to become a teacher just to be hated because you chose the profession?

Funny, how a Toronto Sun article actually talks about it. I wouldn't have expected it. But, the Toronto Star has been borderline slanderous in their reporting. So... strange indeed.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/08/18/fighting-anti-teacher-blowback

Or perhaps the teachers are simply losing public support because they are getting a better deal than most these days and even more, bitch about it!

Is the media creating an impression or responding to one already there?

Every parent who has experienced frustration on behalf of his child develops his own opinion. Too many teachers seem to have become so used to just telling children what to do that they think parents have to obey as well.

Of course, they don't have to do anything of the kind! They may not have the power to change anything but that will do nothing to stop how they feel and what they will do if they ever get a chance to express that feeling.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Or perhaps the teachers are simply losing public support because they are getting a better deal than most these days and even more, bitch about it!

Almost everyone with a degree + professional certification is doing better than most.

Many bitch about it.

Let's claw back everyone down to the median wage that includes high school drop outs and delinquents of various sorts. Let's be fascist about it.

[socialist]

Frankly, I'm tempted to contact the school board and let them know that someone claiming to be a teacher is saying these ridiculous things.

oh i see. because my views are different than yours you're going to go out of your way to damage me. you are intolerant and can't accept opposing views other than your own.

[TheNewTeddy]

I can not "Damage" you in this instance, you can only "Damage" yourself by what you say and how you say it.

[Boges]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1243978--liberals-recall-legislature-in-bid-to-push-through-bill-freezing-teachers-wages

The Legislator is being called back next Monday to legislate a wage freeze for teachers

The Education Premiere

After signing a deal with the NDP to ram through a horrible budget now McDalton has to look to Hudak to be Kingmaker.

I doubt the PCs will make this process easy for Dalton.

I wonder if the Working Uni. . . I mean Working Families people are on the ground trying to get the Libs elected in Vaughan and K-Dub.

[PIK]

Funny thing the male teachers I know are embarressed by this action, but the female teachers are a go on holding kids ransom untill they get everything they want.

[The_Squid]

Funny thing the male teachers I know are embarressed by this action, but the female teachers are a go on holding kids ransom untill they get everything they want.

How much are they charging for the release of the children? Do they have bombs strapped to vests? Holding the poor children for ransom sounds serious....

[Boges]

How much are they charging for the release of the children? Do they have bombs strapped to vests? Holding the poor children for ransom sounds serious....

Though they aren't holding children hostages, both parties use platitudes like "Putting Children First" when neither are.

The fact that teacher can bank 20 sick days a year for when they retire has nothing to do with funding going to schools.

When you look at how school boards spend money they tend to have little regard for the welfare of children.

[TheNewTeddy]

The reason I hate the left as much as the right is it always is "all about me" and this shows the perfect example of that.

If it's not about MY tax dollars, it's about MY wages.

[westguy]

IF it's a small business, then yes.

If it's a big business in a market of diminishing competitors as they are bought up (majority of markets) then the consumer pays (read: tax payer).

In the end, we end up paying. Regardless of whether it is for profit of rich people(private sector), or to provide a service to regular people(Public sector). Companies that should fail receive government funding (GM), healthy companies receive government subsidies and breaks and then just leave the country(Caterpillar). Don't give us that silly "private sector" utopia that doesn't exist bull crap.

consumers may pay but in many cases it is their choice to do so. Taxpayers never have a choice...

[MiddleClassCentrist]

consumers may pay but in many cases it is their choice to do so. Taxpayers never have a choice...

Taxpayers do have a choice. The vote for the person who controls the money.

They can lobby their government and petition citizens...

Doesn't matter now though. We have entered an age of "Hate everyone who has more than I do, and actively try to take it away" era. For now, our corporatocracy is winning. Make no mistake about it. People used to fight to improve their working conditions and wages, now they fight to get everyone else's taken away. The corporate world is laughing, they don't need to even try to negotiate when the general population hates themselves so much.

[Boges]

Doesn't matter now though. We have entered an age of "Hate everyone who has more than I do, and actively try to take it away" era. For now, our corporatocracy is winning. Make no mistake about it. People used to fight to improve their working conditions and wages, now they fight to get everyone else's taken away. The corporate world is laughing, they don't need to even try to negotiate when the general population hates themselves so much.

The truth is there are people in the private sector and people in the public sector. And their plight is very different.

People in the private sector have seen stagnant wages, furloughs, hiring freezes, layoffs and outsourcing. Say it's the big bad corporations fault, perhaps it is, or it could just be market conditions.

It seems that people in the public sector feel they shouldn't share in experience many in the private sector have.

When you have people that, while everyone was fearing for their jobs, got huge raises from this government you feel that it's time for them to at least share a little bit in the pain.

What about this legislation are you opposing? The teachers have said they'll take a pay freeze as long as they can still move up the grid, which isn't really a pay freeze. The furloughs have happened before.

I think it's the sick day thing that's the deal breaker. Which I sort of understand because you're taking something away some might have depended on. But do even the big fat cat 1%ers you hate get a set number of sick they don't lose if they don't use them? Heck most people lose their vacation days if they don't use them.

Call it jealousy if you want, I'd call it fairness, especially since the rest of the private sector funds the public sector's wages. And the deficit this horrible government is "trying" to fight is all of our problems not just the teachers.

[Michael Hardner]

I have to say that Boges has worded this very tough, but he's right. They enjoy benefits not enjoyed by the rest of us. They don't have to give them up, but politics is at the core of this and there will be less empathy for teachers this time around IMO.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

the sick day thing that's the deal breaker. Which I sort of understand because you're taking something away some might have depended on. But do even the big fat cat 1%ers you hate get a set number of sick they don't lose if they don't use them? Heck most people lose their vacation days if they don't use them.

Call it jealousy if you want, I'd call it fairness, especially since the rest of the private sector funds the public sector's wages. And the deficit this horrible government is "trying" to fight is all of our problems not just the teachers.

You call it fairness but, you won't be saying that teachers deserve a raise when times are good. Because... that would be fair

None of these solutions are long term. The drummond report gave some good plans for cutting. It included avoiding a lengthy and costly fight attacking wages and warned against it.

5 Billion in business subsidies? How about that?

1.5 Billion in all day kindergarten? how about that?

This legislation is just an attack on organized labour because of today's Zeitgeist. I don't know anyone who took the time with a professional career focused diploma/degree who is suffering. They all have jobs. I know two that lost their job but quickly found a new one for more pay. Our unemployment isn't ridiculous. We don't have ghettos forming.

People believe it is much worse than it actually is because of the global, not local situation.

The corporate world and media of Canada has capitalized on it to push an austerity agenda.

OH, and fat cat 1%s get yearly bonuses that often exceed a teacher gratuity for an entire careerfor one year of work. Just saying.

Edited August 22, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[eyeball]

People believe it is much worse than it actually is because of the global, not local situation.

The corporate world and media of Canada has capitalized on it to push an austerity agenda.

I believe it so badly that I'm convinced steep (with a capital S) tax hikes on the wealthiest Canadians and corporations are the only solution.

OH, and fat cat 1%s get yearly bonuses that often exceed a teacher gratuity for an entire careerfor one year of work. Just saying.

[Boges]

You call it fairness but, you won't be saying that teachers deserve a raise when times are good. Because... that would be fair

The teacher's employer is in a 15 billion dollar deficit, I don't call that good times.

None of these solutions are long term. The drummond report gave some good plans for cutting. It included avoiding a lengthy and costly fight attacking wages and warned against it.

5 Billion in business subsidies? How about that?

1.5 Billion in all day kindergarten? how about that?

If you oppose All-Day Kindergarten then why are unionized teachers demanding getting what is essentially an ECE job? And what are some of the things that would cut costs related to the cost of education?

This legislation is just an attack on organized labour because of today's Zeitgeist. I don't know anyone who took the time with a professional career focused diploma/degree who is suffering. They all have jobs. I know two that lost their job but quickly found a new one for more pay. Our unemployment isn't ridiculous. We don't have ghettos forming.

So I'm sure you have evidence to support that everyone that went to school for 5 years currently has gainful employment.

What about all those people who went to teacher's college who have to wait for a call everyday to supply teach because there's a dearth of teaching jobs available?

Teacher's college really only amounts to one year doesn't it? The degree you have to qualify for teacher's college can be in Art History can't it?

The corporate world and media of Canada has capitalized on it to push an austerity agenda.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Do you suggest the government not look to cut costs because the deficit is just a corporate plot?

OH, and fat cat 1%s get yearly bonuses that often exceed a teacher gratuity for an entire careerfor one year of work. Just saying.

Funny how you can compare an executives salary to a teachers but it's not right for a private sector professional to compare what they get to a teacher or other civil servants.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Boges

[TheNewTeddy]

I have to say that Boges has worded this very tough, but he's right. They enjoy benefits not enjoyed by the rest of us. They don't have to give them up, but politics is at the core of this and there will be less empathy for teachers this time around IMO.

I say you are almost right, but miss one more line.

Strikers, of any sort, need public support. Somehow that's become forgotten over the last decade.

[Boges]

I say you are almost right, but miss one more line.

Strikers, of any sort, need public support. Somehow that's become forgotten over the last decade.

I don't think they will Strike. They say they won't at least. They will go to court and potentially cost the province more money.

They bitch about collective bargaining yet they pretty much refused to bargain all summer knowing that if a deal isn't in place by September they automatically get a 5% raise.

I can see them doing a "Work to Rule" campaign. Of course doing that flies in the face of "Putting the children first"

[Michael Hardner]

Strikers, of any sort, need public support. Somehow that's become forgotten over the last decade.

It's up to the individual to decide if the demands are reasonable or not. I agree with Boges' point that most haven't had the advantages that this group has had, so they will be hard pressed to get public support.

I don't buy the lines of argument that usually begin with the words "in these times...", but I do think we're in a period of economic restructuring where the entire social contract will be changed little by little, including employment and government employment.

[TheNewTeddy]

All government workers should get a permanent wage increase, permanently tied to the rate of inflation, and not a penny more.

IMO of course.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I don't think they will Strike. They say they won't at least. They will go to court and potentially cost the province more money.

They bitch about collective bargaining yet they pretty much refused to bargain all summer knowing that if a deal isn't in place by September they automatically get a 5% raise.

I can see them doing a "Work to Rule" campaign. Of course doing that flies in the face of "Putting the children first"

The legislation looks to make even work to rule illegal. THEY CAN'T EVEN STOP DOING VOLUNTARY TASKS because it requires a strike vote... which is being declared illegal. That's just not right. If they are being forced to take concessions, they should be able to all say "I'm out, get some parents to coach the teams I'm not paid to coach"

If you knew anything about how the bargaining went... Knowing teachers and respecting collective bargaining. This WAS NOT bargaining.

"Here are the parameters. Accept it." - Hired Lawyers(Note: It wasn't even the government that showed up!)

"We don't like it, how about this deal where we accept a wage freeze for 2 years?" - Union

"Unacceptable. Here's the governments parameters, your deal does not match them exactly. Accept them." - Hired Lawyers

That is exactly how it went. You pretend to know what is going on but, you don't. You have no clue. You've read some articles on the mainstream corporate media sites and bought all of the rhetoric.

The government never intended to bargain... They never tried. You can't bargain with "These are the terms, accept them."

Edited August 22, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[TheNewTeddy]

The legislation looks to make even work to rule illegal. THEY CAN'T EVEN STOP DOING VOLUNTARY TASKS because it requires a strike vote... which is being declared illegal. That's just not right. If they are being forced to take concessions, they should be able to all say "I'm out, get some parents to coach the teams I'm not paid to coach"

If you knew anything about how the bargaining went... Knowing teachers and respecting collective bargaining. This WAS NOT bargaining.

"Here are the parameters. Accept it." - Hired Lawyers(Note: It wasn't even the government that showed up!)

"We don't like it, how about this deal where we accept a wage freeze for 2 years?" - Union

"Unacceptable. Here's the governments parameters, your deal does not match them exactly. Accept them." - Hired Lawyers

That is exactly how it went. You pretend to know what is going on but, you don't. You have no clue. You've read some articles on the mainstream corporate media sites and bought all of the rhetoric.

The government never intended to bargain... They never tried. You can't bargain with "These are the terms, accept them."

If the union said these things rather than "WE DESERVE AND DEMAND MORE SHUT UP TEDDY I DONT HAVE TO LISTEN TO YOU LALALALA WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU ARE GOING TO TELL MY BOSS YOU ARE OUT TO GET ME" they might actually have the support to win this thing.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

If the union said these things rather than "WE DESERVE AND DEMAND MORE SHUT UP TEDDY I DONT HAVE TO LISTEN TO YOU LALALALA WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU ARE GOING TO TELL MY BOSS YOU ARE OUT TO GET ME" they might actually have the support to win this thing.

I couldn't follow the bolded part but, got the gist I think heheh.

Some have said they have a public relations problem. The reality is that they have a media reporting problem. Union leaders have had interviews... they go largely unreported but, can be found in the recesses of the internet. It's borderline 1984esque. Pretend they said nothing so you only have the governments word to go on.

Teachers haven't demanded more.

They are just trying to get less taken away.

Make no mistake, they are making concessions and understand there is fiscal plight in Ontario.

The grid is about slowing the cost of young teachers. Teachers already start at a lower salary than firefighters, police, nurses, etc. and then they move up.

If they can't afford the grid increments, it's because they are horrible fiscal managers(nothing new). "Hey, all of our older teachers retired and we have new, young teachers with student debt moving up the grid. Maybe we should account for that?"

Edited August 23, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Wild Bill]

OH, and fat cat 1%s get yearly bonuses that often exceed a teacher gratuity for an entire careerfor one year of work. Just saying.

That is an irrelevant statement. The fat cats don't amount to nearly as many votes as the ordinary worker in the private sector.

When they are looking at how well the teachers are doing and thinking about how things have been for themselves, pointing fingers at the fat cats is not going to make them change their minds and love the teachers!