Quebec marginalized

[Moonbox]

I just reading a seperate thread and I came across an interesting post by wwildbill that I thought merited further discussion. I'm sorry if this is cross-posting or whatever, but regardless:

Quebec has left itself with no voice of power in Ottawa. That leaves them with only the perpetual threat of separation as a lever. That situation has changed as well, with large portions of TROC now believing that losing Quebec would save them much money, in a time when money is very tight.

Bill started off talking about how strict supply-chain management for things like dairy etc is in danger of being eliminated, and he brought up how strongly Quebec has always supported this type of protectionism. At any rate, with governments in the past, there was always a strong element of pandering towards Quebec (Chretien Liberals and even Harper in the early days are recent examples). Quebec was always seen as necessary to winning a majority government in Canada, and although their desires seemed to differ strongly from anglo-Canada, governments often caved to them for their support.

This time, however, Harper won a majority with barely a whiff of support from Quebec, and he's not likely to improve that anytime soon. He's in a unique position now, where no other PM has ever been, to start dismantling the 'panderism' that Quebec's enjoyed for a long time. He couldn't care less what Quebec wants/demands, because as far as he's concerned it's a political wasteland.

We've talked about it a fair bit before, but Canada has never been more 'regionalized' in my lifetime than it is now. A lot of people will blame Harper for this, which I guess they can, but what I think it has more to do with is the fact that what Quebec demands from the federal government is so far divorced from what anglo-Canada wants that this was a pre-determined conclusion. As long as this divide continues, the situation isn't going to improve. As English-Canada becomes increasingly more and more pre-eminent, this is only going to get worse for Quebec. It seems to me that they have two options. Either they can either continue down their current course, and become more and more irrelevant, or they can moderate a little and again make themselves part of the federation. The Bloc Quebecqois or any similar alternative is not going to help them moving forward. Let's see if they're smart enough to figure this out.

[bleeding heart]

We've talked about it a fair bit before, but Canada has never been more 'regionalized' in my lifetime than it is now. A lot of people will blame Harper for this, which I guess they can, but what I think it has more to do with is the fact that what Quebec demands from the federal government is so far divorced from what anglo-Canada wants that this was a pre-determined conclusion. As long as this divide continues, the situation isn't going to improve. As English-Canada becomes increasingly more and more pre-eminent, this is only going to get worse for Quebec. It seems to me that they have two options. Either they can either continue down their current course, and become more and more irrelevant, or they can moderate a little and again make themselves part of the federation. The Bloc Quebecqois or any similar alternative is not going to help them moving forward. Let's see if they're smart enough to figure this out.

I'm inclined to agree.

Another poster has opined that Harper's ultimately dead in the water without Quebec, but...well, the response to that is pretty obvious, isn't it?

Here in the Maritimes, Quebec is the single region that has consistently raised people's ire, and it's been going on for a while. Even our Acadians are irritated.

Speaking of which--and pointing directly at your penultimate sentence above--the Acadians had some legitimate complaints about their second-class status in NB (I've heard stories of people a single generation ago warning their kids to speak English in public, to avoid harrassment; and I remember the open anti-French bigotry very well myself. And I'm 45 years old. (An Anglo, to clarify.) )

But the Acadians, with reserve, civility and tenacity, managed to achieve language rights in NB.

And that ended the matter.

That's it. They're done fighting.

There's no revolution, and very little anger (most of it emanating from English bigots, quite frankly).

It's time for Quebec to change course. It's perfectly do-able.

Edited June 28, 2012 by bleeding heart

[Peter F]

... Either they can either continue down their current course, and become more and more irrelevant, or they can moderate a little and again make themselves part of the federation. The Bloc Quebecqois or any similar alternative is not going to help them moving forward. Let's see if they're smart enough to figure this out.

It seems they are irrelevant right now - already. TROC cares not what Quebec wants (for whatever reasons please them).

So, you see the answer to thier irrelevancy is to elect liberals/Conservatives thus becoming relevant again. Then they can

get the stuff they want!

Kind of circular argument isnt it? Become relevant by voting conservative then become irrelevant by getting what they want.

Edit to add: Also there is the third option: vote BQ/PQ etc and either achieve Soveriegnty or have the ROC parties pander to them. That works too.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Peter F

[Tilter]

I just reading a seperate thread and I came across an interesting post by wwildbill that I thought merited further discussion. I'm sorry if this is cross-posting or whatever, but regardless:

Quebec has left itself with no voice of power in Ottawa. That leaves them with only the perpetual threat of separation as a lever. That situation has changed as well, with large portions of TROC now believing that losing Quebec would save them much money, in a time when money is very tight.

Bill started off talking about how strict supply-chain management for things like dairy etc is in danger of being eliminated, and he brought up how strongly Quebec has always supported this type of protectionism. At any rate, with governments in the past, there was always a strong element of pandering towards Quebec (Chretien Liberals and even Harper in the early days are recent examples). Quebec was always seen as necessary to winning a majority government in Canada, and although their desires seemed to differ strongly from anglo-Canada, governments often caved to them for their support.

This time, however, Harper won a majority with barely a whiff of support from Quebec, and he's not likely to improve that anytime soon. He's in a unique position now, where no other PM has ever been, to start dismantling the 'panderism' that Quebec's enjoyed for a long time. He couldn't care less what Quebec wants/demands, because as far as he's concerned it's a political wasteland.

We've talked about it a fair bit before, but Canada has never been more 'regionalized' in my lifetime than it is now. A lot of people will blame Harper for this, which I guess they can, but what I think it has more to do with is the fact that what Quebec demands from the federal government is so far divorced from what anglo-Canada wants that this was a pre-determined conclusion. As long as this divide continues, the situation isn't going to improve. As English-Canada becomes increasingly more and more pre-eminent, this is only going to get worse for Quebec. It seems to me that they have two options. Either they can either continue down their current course, and become more and more irrelevant, or they can moderate a little and again make themselves part of the federation. The Bloc Quebecqois or any similar alternative is not going to help them moving forward. Let's see if they're smart enough to figure this out.

Sounds like the coddling of the Quebec dairy industry has run it's useful course as have the restrictions regarding of out-of-province workers/contracts/contractors rules Quebec applies at it's borders. 'panderism'--- good word for the treatment Quebec has received from past governments. Time to toughen up a little and, since PM Harper doesn't (like 80 % of past PMs) come from Quebec maybe he'll be the one to ease it off a little.

Hope so.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Tilter

[Moonbox]

It seems they are irrelevant right now - already. TROC cares not what Quebec wants (for whatever reasons please them).

So, you see the answer to thier irrelevancy is to elect liberals/Conservatives thus becoming relevant again. Then they can

get the stuff they want!

Kind of circular argument isnt it? Become relevant by voting conservative then become irrelevant by getting what they want.

That's not the argument at all. The argument is that Quebec should abandon their petulant "Our way or we vote Bloc" mentality and realize that the country doesn't revolve around their protesting. Alberta figured it out when they transitioned from Reform to Alliance to CPC, and look what happened. They moderated, they accomodated and they won Ontario and a majority for Harper. A lot of people out West are still frothing at the mouth that abortion and gay marriage are legal, but they kept their cool and still voted Conservative.

Edit to add: Also there is the third option: vote BQ/PQ etc and either achieve Soveriegnty or have the ROC parties pander to them. That works too.

All I have is a big *yawn* for the sovereignty argument. Montreal isn't interested. As for the Bloc, you missed the entire point. You don't need Quebec to win a majority, nor do you even need Quebec to run a minority. The Conservatives have proved that through several terms.

[Guest Peeves]

That's not the argument at all. The argument is that Quebec should abandon their petulant "Our way or we vote Bloc" mentality and realize that the country doesn't revolve around their protesting. Alberta figured it out when they transitioned from Reform to Alliance to CPC, and look what happened. They moderated, they accomodated and they won Ontario and a majority for Harper. A lot of people out West are still frothing at the mouth that abortion and gay marriage are legal, but they kept their cool and still voted Conservative.

All I have is a big *yawn* for the sovereignty argument. Montreal isn't interested. As for the Bloc, you missed the entire point. You don't need Quebec to win a majority, nor do you even need Quebec to run a minority. The Conservatives have proved that through several terms.

Add to the equation the number of of NDP 'r's being elected from la belle province and "NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair has support from 41 per cent of Quebeccers, according to a Forum Research poll."

It is indeed an interesting time to be a Canadian who is interested in politics.

[Moonbox]

Add to the equation the number of of NDP 'r's being elected from la belle province and "NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair has support from 41 per cent of Quebeccers, according to a Forum Research poll."

It is indeed an interesting time to be a Canadian who is interested in politics.

The big question we have to ask, I think, is whether Quebec is all of the sudden on board with the NDP, or if instead it is hijacking the NDP altogether. If the NDP can remain a truly federal party, things might be looking up. If, however, the NDP turns into the new Quebec-centric party, the CPC is going to be in charge of things for quite some time (barring a revival of the Liberals).

[Guest Peeves]

The big question we have to ask, I think, is whether Quebec is all of the sudden on board with the NDP, or if instead it is hijacking the NDP altogether. If the NDP can remain a truly federal party, things might be looking up. If, however, the NDP turns into the new Quebec-centric party, the CPC is going to be in charge of things for quite some time (barring a revival of the Liberals).

Ah mais qui, but is there a better leader now for the NDP Québécois than Monseiur Mulcair with his political cv. Not likely

Edited June 28, 2012 by Peeves

[Moonbox]

Ah mais qui, but is there a better leader now for the NDP Québécois than Monseiur Mulcair with his political cv. Not likely

That's not really the question at all. The question is whether or not Quebec is willing to play with the rest of Canada, or if they prefer to throw tantrums and further isolate themselves.

[Signals.Cpl]

That's not really the question at all. The question is whether or not Quebec is willing to play with the rest of Canada, or if they prefer to throw tantrums and further isolate themselves.

Have they proven willing to play with TROC? From where I am standing you give them a piece of the cake and they turn around and demand the whole thing. I think the only way Quebec would truly become part of Canada would be if they started up with the sovereignty song and dance again and TROC shows them the door, then mot Quebecers would think twice as to wether they want independence or not.

[Moonbox]

Have they proven willing to play with TROC? From where I am standing you give them a piece of the cake and they turn around and demand the whole thing.

thus leading to where they stand today. Can they grow up, or is this going to continue?

[Signals.Cpl]

thus leading to where they stand today. Can they grow up, or is this going to continue?

They can grow up once the bluff of separation from Canada is called. Once they see that TROC don't care wether they stay or not they will rethink their position. What the government needs to do is remove all those special rights that Quebec get that other provinces don't get, let them threaten separation and when TROC shows them the door, I highly doubt they will think twice about leaving Canada and will likely start playing nice with the rest of us.

[Wild Bill]

They can grow up once the bluff of separation from Canada is called. Once they see that TROC don't care wether they stay or not they will rethink their position. What the government needs to do is remove all those special rights that Quebec get that other provinces don't get, let them threaten separation and when TROC shows them the door, I highly doubt they will think twice about leaving Canada and will likely start playing nice with the rest of us.

You are likely quite correct, Cpl! During the first separation referendum Trudeau stood out from the pack of appeasers and told Quebecers point blank that if they choose to be out they were ALL the way out!

No EI. No Old Age Pension. No Transfer Payments. No baby bonus, no pass ports, no common currency - no nothing! Quebec could expect no more from Ottawa than Ireland or Botswana!

This is probably what turned the tide against separating. The BQ has always liked to pretend that a separation agreement would be painless and easy - that no Quebecer would be hurt! TROC would be obliged by common sense to make a "nice" deal.

As if separation would not be emotional on both sides! Whoever heard of a divorce agreement worked out with no fury?

Hopefully if there is yet another referendum another Trudeau will appear to make the situation plain. Any party in power at that time would be stupid in the extreme to not realize that if they don't appear to stand agressively for TROC's interests and not Quebec's they would be committing political suicide. After all, once separated Quebec would have no seats to offer any party at all!

[Peter F]

That's not the argument at all. The argument is that Quebec should abandon their petulant "Our way or we vote Bloc" mentality and realize that the country doesn't revolve around their protesting. Alberta figured it out when they transitioned from Reform to Alliance to CPC, and look what happened. They moderated, they accomodated and they won Ontario and a majority for Harper. A lot of people out West are still frothing at the mouth that abortion and gay marriage are legal, but they kept their cool and still voted Conservative.

But Quebec voters were irrelevant. They voted enmasse for the NDP. Certainly rejecting the Cons and Libs and BQ too.

Are you suggesting that perhaps if the BQ wasnt so Quebec-centric the voters of Ontario or Alberta would vote enmasse for the

new moderate BQ?

All I have is a big *yawn* for the sovereignty argument. Montreal isn't interested. As for the Bloc, you missed the entire point. You don't need Quebec to win a majority, nor do you even need Quebec to run a minority. The Conservatives have proved that through several terms.

Your argument is contradictory. On one hand you say that Quebec should become less concerned about themselves so that Quebec will be more relevant to Canada. Then you point out that it really doesnt matter what Quebec does for Quebec is not necessary for a majority or a minority - Quebec is irrelevant.

[Jack Weber]

But Quebec voters were irrelevant. They voted enmasse for the NDP. Certainly rejecting the Cons and Libs and BQ too.

Are you suggesting that perhaps if the BQ wasnt so Quebec-centric the voters of Ontario or Alberta would vote enmasse for the

new moderate BQ?

Your argument is contradictory. On one hand you say that Quebec should become less concerned about themselves so that Quebec will be more relevant to Canada. Then you point out that it really doesnt matter what Quebec does for Quebec is not necessary for a majority or a minority - Quebec is irrelevant.

I can't speak for Moonbox,but I don't think Quebec is irrelevent..Far from it,actually...

I do think seperatism/seccession is becoming increasingly irrelevent,however,and that's a good thing overall.The problem I have with the NDP (And the previous Mulroney/Quebec fiasco)is the aquiescence to seperatist demands dressed up as "being inclusive" and "understanding of" Quebecs "Distinct Society".So much so,that Mr. Mulroney (and the signatories of the Sherbrooke Declaration,I might add) are prepared to make Quebec an uber province over anyone else,constitutionally speaking...Based on cultural difference!!!

That was/is unconscionable!!!

[Peter F]

You are likely quite correct, Cpl! During the first separation referendum Trudeau stood out from the pack of appeasers and told Quebecers point blank that if they choose to be out they were ALL the way out!

No EI. No Old Age Pension. No Transfer Payments. No baby bonus, no pass ports, no common currency - no nothing! Quebec could expect no more from Ottawa than Ireland or Botswana!

This is probably what turned the tide against separating. The BQ has always liked to pretend that a separation agreement would be painless and easy - that no Quebecer would be hurt! TROC would be obliged by common sense to make a "nice" deal.

As if separation would not be emotional on both sides! Whoever heard of a divorce agreement worked out with no fury?

I have. Mine. Worked out nice and easily with no muss no fuss. But then we behaved like responsible adults.

But then the rhetoric of the divorce metaphor assumes an abusive relationship:

If you leave I will make sure you do not get a dime! Forget the kids too! and you're outta the house too! If you leave you will get nothing Bitch! So stay and love me!

But it does work...for while.

I am reminded of Leveque's response to the reporter who pronounced the 'you will get nothing!' tirade. Canada will allow the parting, he said, because "Canadians are a civilized people".

Hopefully if there is yet another referendum another Trudeau will appear to make the situation plain. Any party in power at that time would be stupid in the extreme to not realize that if they don't appear to stand agressively for TROC's interests and not Quebec's they would be committing political suicide. After all, once separated Quebec would have no seats to offer any party at all!

and after all the reform party could never form the government by assuming that very position!

Edited June 29, 2012 by Peter F

[Wild Bill]

I have. Mine. Worked out nice and easily with no muss no fuss. But then we behaved like responsible adults.

But then the rhetoric of the divorce metaphor assumes an abusive relationship:

If you leave I will make sure you do not get a dime! Forget the kids too! and you're outta the house too! If you leave you will get nothing Bitch! So stay and love me!

But it does work...for while.

I am reminded of Leveque's response to the reporter who pronounced the 'you will get nothing!' tirade. Canada will allow the parting, he said, because "Canadians are a civilized people".

and after all the reform party could never form the government by assuming that very position!

Well Peter, you might be right but somehow I don't think so. Your situation sounds like an exception rather than the rule.

What's more, we are talking about entire populations here! A mathematician friend once told me that intelligence is a constant divided by the number of people in the group. So the bigger the group the less intelligence it will show.

Surely all of Quebec and TROC would not show very much intelligence in a separation negotiation at all!

As for the Reform Party, we will never know! At the time they died their support had grown very strong in the West and had numbered several million voters in Ontario. They had less in Quebec in those days than Harper has today! Those were different times, with different demographics. It was Harper's strength in Ontario that put him over the top into a majority. Could Manning have done the same if given a few more years? We will never know.

Whatever, I think it safe to say that Joe Clark and what was left of the PCs at the time could never have done it!

[Tilter]

was that the NQP?

[Jack Weber]

was that the NQP?

I think you've taken the Geritol at the wrong time,gramps

[August1991]

This time, however, Harper won a majority with barely a whiff of support from Quebec, and he's not likely to improve that anytime soon. He's in a unique position now, where no other PM has ever been, to start dismantling the 'panderism' that Quebec's enjoyed for a long time. He couldn't care less what Quebec wants/demands, because as far as he's concerned it's a political wasteland.

Harper won a majority because he united the Conservatives and faced a divided opposition. So far, he has yet to poll much above 30%.

-----

This thread is just another in the long tradition of "Quebec bashing". Well, different regions of Canada have always bickered. It is the job of the federal PM to have sufficient support in enough regions to stay in power. Since Quebec is perceived as the obviously distinct region of Canada, no federal PM can be perceived as a legitimate regional power broker who lacks some support in Quebec.

There's a reason Harper's numbers remain in the low 30s.

And if the Liberals continue to implode (and I frankly don't see any reason for this to stop), such numbers will not get Harper back to 24 Sussex.

[Signals.Cpl]

You are likely quite correct, Cpl! During the first separation referendum Trudeau stood out from the pack of appeasers and told Quebecers point blank that if they choose to be out they were ALL the way out!

No EI. No Old Age Pension. No Transfer Payments. No baby bonus, no pass ports, no common currency - no nothing! Quebec could expect no more from Ottawa than Ireland or Botswana!

This is probably what turned the tide against separating. The BQ has always liked to pretend that a separation agreement would be painless and easy - that no Quebecer would be hurt! TROC would be obliged by common sense to make a "nice" deal.

As if separation would not be emotional on both sides! Whoever heard of a divorce agreement worked out with no fury?

Hopefully if there is yet another referendum another Trudeau will appear to make the situation plain. Any party in power at that time would be stupid in the extreme to not realize that if they don't appear to stand agressively for TROC's interests and not Quebec's they would be committing political suicide. After all, once separated Quebec would have no seats to offer any party at all!

The funny thing is that Quebec holds the power while the government is tripping over itself to pander to them thats why Quebec separating is best as a threat, if Quebec bluffs about separation once again and TROC calls their bluff I don't see Quebec going through with it. As you said, they would lose all the obvious benefits that come with being part of Canada, but also many not so obvious benefits as well, if it comes to that and Canada fights for itself we can see Quebec quickly changing their mind and wanting to stay.

Separation is best used as a threat to get what they want, but if it is ever called out by TROC, Quebec loses all of the perks is has that no other province get. My personal opinion is that should we see a revival of the sovereignty question TROC should have a referendum to kick out the separatists from the country let them form their own country in northern Quebec...

[eyeball]

We've talked about it a fair bit before, but Canada has never been more 'regionalized' in my lifetime than it is now. A lot of people will blame Harper for this, which I guess they can, but what I think it has more to do with is the fact that what Quebec demands from the federal government is so far divorced from what anglo-Canada wants that this was a pre-determined conclusion.

Quebec has nothing at all to do with my own sense of estrangement from Canada/Ottawa, I lay that at DFO's feet for the most part. I can't blame Canadians for seemingly sitting on their asses while Ottawa basically blew my region's heritage and economic lifeblood away but now I also care all the less about anyone else's problems. I probably have the time but for some reason the inclination escapes me. Go figure. I think that probably has more to do with my contact with fellow Canadians via forums like this. Some people think the Internet and places like this informs and bring Canadians together but I get the sense it's reflecting a deeper more fundamental indifference. I also get a deeper sense that it's really Ottawa in general and Parliament Hill specifically that is the cause of so much of our discord. To me they're irredeemably loathsome symbols of why the world is becoming such a shit hole.

I'd probably cheer Quebec's separation and even express a sheer vindictive spitefulness at first but I'd also be hoping that the resulting fractures that continue to cleave through and around us fall along the bioregional 'lines' that naturally divide our planet.

It's 2012 for crying out loud - provinces are just so yesteryear it's past funny. We should already be seriously planning the 1st Congress of Earth with visiting dignitaries from the Lunar and Martian colonial Parliaments.

Edited June 29, 2012 by eyeball

[Moonbox]

But Quebec voters were irrelevant. They voted enmasse for the NDP. Certainly rejecting the Cons and Libs and BQ too.

Are you suggesting that perhaps if the BQ wasnt so Quebec-centric the voters of Ontario or Alberta would vote enmasse for the

new moderate BQ?

That's a dumb question, because the whole point of the BQ is to be Quebec-centric. I think I made it pretty clear what I was suggesting. If Quebecquers were a little less petulent and a little more willing to cooperate in a truly federal sense, they'd alter the political landscape. We saw this happen with the NDP. What remains to be seen is whether Quebec understands and comes on board, or whether they hijack the NDP and turn it into the new Bloc, thus alienating TROC.

Your argument is contradictory. On one hand you say that Quebec should become less concerned about themselves so that Quebec will be more relevant to Canada.

No. I'm saying Quebec should become more reasonable and realize that the country doesn't revolve around them.

Then you point out that it really doesnt matter what Quebec does for Quebec is not necessary for a majority or a minority - Quebec is irrelevant.

Seriously? That's what you took out of this? Reread the thread. What I was pointing out was that Quebec MADE itself irrelvant to the current government, not that it's irrelevant by default.

Harper won a majority because he united the Conservatives and faced a divided opposition. So far, he has yet to poll much above 30%.

That's how Chretien won his majority too. We haven't had a 'truly' national majority since Mulroney. Quebec's 'protest vote' made Harper's tenure as PM possible.

This thread is just another in the long tradition of "Quebec bashing".

Call it what you want. The point remains.

Since Quebec is perceived as the obviously distinct region of Canada, no federal PM can be perceived as a legitimate regional power broker who lacks some support in Quebec.

Quebec made itself a little too distinct.

And if the Liberals continue to implode (and I frankly don't see any reason for this to stop), such numbers will not get Harper back to 24 Sussex.

The implosion of the Liberals will help the Conservatives in Ontario more than anyone, especially if Quebec's running the NDP. Barring some giant scandal or the NDP becoming far more moderate, Harper's going to be around for a while.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Moonbox

[westguy]

You are likely quite correct, Cpl! During the first separation referendum Trudeau stood out from the pack of appeasers and told Quebecers point blank that if they choose to be out they were ALL the way out!

No EI. No Old Age Pension. No Transfer Payments. No baby bonus, no pass ports, no common currency - no nothing! Quebec could expect no more from Ottawa than Ireland or Botswana!

This is probably what turned the tide against separating. The BQ has always liked to pretend that a separation agreement would be painless and easy - that no Quebecer would be hurt! TROC would be obliged by common sense to make a "nice" deal.

As if separation would not be emotional on both sides! Whoever heard of a divorce agreement worked out with no fury?

Hopefully if there is yet another referendum another Trudeau will appear to make the situation plain. Any party in power at that time would be stupid in the extreme to not realize that if they don't appear to stand agressively for TROC's interests and not Quebec's they would be committing political suicide. After all, once separated Quebec would have no seats to offer any party at all!

All true also Quebec would lose the generous billions of dollars in transfer payments

from ther ROC that keeps Quebec functioning and demanding more from ther ROC. I am from Alberta and I feel we should tell Quebec to go if they want but not to expect anything from the ROC. They would be a third world countryithin months.

[Peter F]

What is the point? From what I gather the point is that if people dont vote for the party that wins the election then those people are irrelevant. I think that point is absolute bunk. Quebecers went over to the NDP - not the conservatives - and were shut out of government and are somehow not irrelevant.

Someones going to have to explain why voting for the protest parties is irrelevant and voting for the mainstream is relevant