Quebec marginalized

[cybercoma]

If Quebec democratically gained independence, their passports would be just as good as Canadian ones.

[dre]

Yeah, mainly because most separatists don't consider that should Quebec ever separate they will lose all those nice little things that the Federal government does for them, they will lose the Canadian passport which lets them travel almost anywhere they want, they have to take over the duties of the federal government which increases cost while independence will decrease income. Suddenly faced with significant debt and a large deficit Quebec will have to make cuts in Healthcare, Education, pensions and other government services like Defence and Foreign Missions(Embassies) amongst other deep cuts to your way of life.

That might be a good thing for Quebec in the medium to long term. People who get off of welfare dont usually do worse, even though they lose their monthly check... they do better.

Quebec would have to reconcile its consumption and spending with its productiion. Not a bad thing at all in the long term.

And the reality is that Canada is going to experience all of those cuts as well anyways. We dont fully fund our standard of life any more than Quebec does.

[Signals.Cpl]

If Quebec democratically gained independence, their passports would be just as good as Canadian ones.

Not in the eyes of the world, the Canadian passport is worth something and thus sought after because of the weight it carries. Many countries require visa's for visitors and such while Canadian passport could get you through customs without the requirement of a visa. Losing your passport in say Cuba or Mexico might prove troublesome since Quebec would not have an embassy to go to. I have two passports and two citizenships, one is worth little when traveling as most places require a visa and that passport and citizenship carry little weight while when traveling with my Canadian passport I have no problem what so ever.

[Signals.Cpl]

That might be a good thing for Quebec in the medium to long term. People who get off of welfare dont usually do worse, even though they lose their monthly check... they do better.

Quebec would have to reconcile its consumption and spending with its productiion. Not a bad thing at all in the long term.

And the reality is that Canada is going to experience all of those cuts as well anyways. We dont fully fund our standard of life any more than Quebec does.

True, but they don't seem to see it that way, when I hear separatists talk it comes out as if it will be a paradise with free education, better healthcare all the protected industries would remain protected etc.. no one ever seems to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that it would not be as rosy should they separate.

[Wild Bill]

Not in the eyes of the world, the Canadian passport is worth something and thus sought after because of the weight it carries. Many countries require visa's for visitors and such while Canadian passport could get you through customs without the requirement of a visa. Losing your passport in say Cuba or Mexico might prove troublesome since Quebec would not have an embassy to go to. I have two passports and two citizenships, one is worth little when traveling as most places require a visa and that passport and citizenship carry little weight while when traveling with my Canadian passport I have no problem what so ever.

Cpl, it seems you are unaware that Quebec already has its own embassies!

They don't call them that, of course. They are called immigration offices or trade missions or whatever. Still, they are institutions in foreign countries representing only Quebec's interests.

No other province is allowed to do the same!

Also, a Quebec passport is a non-issue. Any country can have a passport. Even the Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

I wouldn't bother quoting dollars and cents to a separatiste, if I were you. You're wasting their time. They are "heart" people, not "head" people. They don't think in terms of dollars and cents. They take that for granted, believing that it will be fine. They have a dream! When Vineon says that Quebec pays its own way with federal taxes, he believes that because of emotion and pride. Nothing you can show him will change his mind.

If after Quebec separated they experienced economic hardship, separatistes would simply brand it an unforeseen, unlucky event caused by TROC! They would ignore any connection with the result of going it alone.

It's a religion, Cpl! A faith, if you like.

At the higher political levels, separatiste politicians have always known that in the short run Quebecers would suffer tremendous hardships. Since their own asses will be covered, they think it's worth it! They will be quite comfortable themselves. It's always easy to have someone ELSE suffer for your dream!

Remember how during that separation vote such questions were asked of Parizeau and he just smiled and said that if the vote went 'yes' Quebecers would be like "lobsters in a pot". By this he meant that they would be committed and unable to change their fate.

So as I said, save your breath. If Quebec separates it will be her choice - and her consequences! TROC taxpayers will get a break. The Quebec dairy industry will likely be decimated, due to losing all exports to TROC to the Americans, who can provide the products MUCH cheaper! TROC will pick up most of the jobs that Quebec loses, as companies pull out and re-locate. Some of the firsts will be the banks, as there is no way they will want to have their headquarters in a foreign country.

Things would likely be similar to the Czechoslovakian breakup. The Czechs have economically done very well. The Slovaks are forced to survive on their newfound national pride.

[Signals.Cpl]

Cpl, it seems you are unaware that Quebec already has its own embassies!

They don't call them that, of course. They are called immigration offices or trade missions or whatever. Still, they are institutions in foreign countries representing only Quebec's interests.

No other province is allowed to do the same!

Yes, they might have that, but a diplomatic service does not include only 10 embassies, if they separate they would need more than the once they already have but will not have the funds to maintain the once they have let alone add more.

Also, a Quebec passport is a non-issue. Any country can have a passport. Even the Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

Its not a question of CAN they get a passport, its a question of what the passport would be worth. A region doesn't separate, create a passport and automatically have a passport of equal worth as the Canadian one.

I wouldn't bother quoting dollars and cents to a separatiste, if I were you. You're wasting their time. They are "heart" people, not "head" people. They don't think in terms of dollars and cents. They take that for granted, believing that it will be fine. They have a dream! When Vineon says that Quebec pays its own way with federal taxes, he believes that because of emotion and pride. Nothing you can show him will change his mind.

Not bothered by facts, very interesting...

If after Quebec separated they experienced economic hardship, separatistes would simply brand it an unforeseen, unlucky event caused by TROC! They would ignore any connection with the result of going it alone.

It's a religion, Cpl! A faith, if you like.

So you mean nothing would change? They would always blame the rest of us for their problems?

At the higher political levels, separatiste politicians have always known that in the short run Quebecers would suffer tremendous hardships. Since their own asses will be covered, they think it's worth it! They will be quite comfortable themselves. It's always easy to have someone ELSE suffer for your dream!

Yea, but I don't think that there are that many separatists and by this I mean the hardcore supporters of the movement and when the going gets tough and their savings are gone, tuition is through the roof, healthcare is non existent most of the separatists will quickly look to Canada.

Remember how during that separation vote such questions were asked of Parizeau and he just smiled and said that if the vote went 'yes' Quebecers would be like "lobsters in a pot". By this he meant that they would be committed and unable to change their fate.

Quebec would have a choice, they would see the difference between being a province and having a lot of services and jobs v. being a nation and having few services and no jobs. They can ask to join Canada and at that point most Canadians might not want Quebec, but if there is consensus to let Quebec in they would have lost all that they have secured over the last 40+ years and would not be treated any different than any other province. The threat of Separation is much more potent as a weapon than actual separation as separation carries with it the great potential of failure.

So as I said, save your breath. If Quebec separates it will be her choice - and her consequences! TROC taxpayers will get a break. The Quebec dairy industry will likely be decimated, due to losing all exports to TROC to the Americans, who can provide the products MUCH cheaper! TROC will pick up most of the jobs that Quebec loses, as companies pull out and re-locate. Some of the firsts will be the banks, as there is no way they will want to have their headquarters in a foreign country.

They will be hit with federal government layoffs of Quebecers from their payroll's, the companies moving out of Quebec, reduced provincial government amongst many others.

Things would likely be similar to the Czechoslovakian breakup. The Czechs have economically done very well. The Slovaks are forced to survive on their newfound national pride.

I believe that the difference is that the referendum saw the Czechs vote the Slovaks out while the Slovaks were offering pretty much the same deal Quebec wants TROC.

[Vineon]

And it is a ridiculous claim when you say that a Quebec passport will be of any value when traveling abroad when compared to a well established nation like Canada/

It will carry a similar value. What do you see Québec as? A terrorist hot spot dictatorship led by a tyrant? There would be no reason for countries to look down on a Québec passport whatsoever. Just like countries of similar or inferior size manage, Québec would.

So you think that those taxes will cover defence, Foreign Affairs, loss of revenue from businesses fleeing the sinking ship(Quebec).

Yes, as these taxes already do. I also believe Québec does not proportionally need as much defense nor spending overseas which would save us money rather than cost us more money. There is no chance in hell we'd be putting 30+ and some billions for fighter jets, for instance.

Businesses will not flee as long as it makes sense for them to be in Québec. In the end, money talks. I do not believe they will do it out of spite because Québec has just become a country. What makes Québec advantageous for them today will make it just as advantageous tomorrow.

Source:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2012/03/19/quebec-budget-2012-2013.html

While in 2012-2013 timeframe Quebec will receive 7,391,000,000 dollars in equalization payments.

Source:

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp

Now here is the formula:

Equalization payment=7.391 billion

Quebec Budget=70.1 billion

(7.391/70.1)*100≈ 10.54% of the Quebec budget comes from the Equalization payments... you were right, it was not 10%, it was 10.54%.

Québec's budget is 70 millions WITHOUT money sent to Ottawa. In short, that's pretty much half the budget an independent Québec would have.

Something else, you do not seem to much understand how equalization works as Québec does not receive a net 7.4 millions from it. It just so happens that Québec also pays for the equalization program, as do all provinces. At least 3.5 millions of these 7.5 millions come from Québec, which makes it an actual redistribution of 4 mils.

Equalization is only a small part of all transfer payments directly transfered from Ottawa to the provinces. Here lays the real numbers you should be looking at. When Ottawa transfers 5 bils to the Ontario auto industry, it isn't something you'll see laid down in the equalization columns.

I wouldn't bother quoting dollars and cents to a separatiste, if I were you. You're wasting their time. They are "heart" people, not "head" people. They don't think in terms of dollars and cents. They take that for granted, believing that it will be fine. They have a dream! When Vineon says that Quebec pays its own way with federal taxes, he believes that because of emotion and pride. Nothing you can show him will change his mind.

It would help if what is shown and labeled "facts" were actually facts.

Things would likely be similar to the Czechoslovakian breakup. The Czechs have economically done very well. The Slovaks are forced to survive on their newfound national pride.

It is commonly known that Slovakia has done much better since the split and is one of the fastest growing european country largely because of it.

Independence has helped them grow, it has not sunk them. They are not reduced to survive on national pride.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Vineon

[Wild Bill]

It will carry a similar value. What do you see Québec as? A terrorist hot spot dictatorship led by a tyrant? There would be no reason for countries to look down on a Québec passport whatsoever. Just like countries of similar or inferior size manage, Québec would.

Yes, as these taxes already do. I also believe Québec does not proportionally need as much defense nor spending overseas which would save us money rather than cost us more money. There is no chance in hell we'd be putting 30+ and some billions for fighter jets, for instance.

Businesses will not flee as long as it makes sense for them to be in Québec. In the end, money talks. I do not believe they will do it out of spite because Québec has just become a country. What makes Québec advantageous for them today will make it just as advantageous tomorrow.

Québec's budget is 70 millions WITHOUT money sent to Ottawa. In short, that's pretty much half the budget an independent Québec would have.

Something else, you do not seem to much understand how equalization works as Québec does not receive a net 7.4 millions from it. It just so happens that Québec also pays for the equalization program, as do all provinces. At least 3.5 millions of these 7.5 millions come from Québec, which makes it an actual redistribution of 4 mils.

Equalization is only a small part of all transfer payments directly transfered from Ottawa to the provinces. Here lays the real numbers you should be looking at. When Ottawa transfers 5 bils to the Ontario auto industry, it isn't something you'll see laid down in the equalization columns.

It would help if what is shown and labeled "facts" were actually facts.

It is commonly known that Slovakia has done much better since the split and is one of the fastest growing european country largely because of it.

Independence has helped them grow, it has not sunk them. They are not reduced to survive on national pride.

Hey Vineon, you're the one calling for Quebec to separate. If it happens, it will be your problem and not mine as to how to make it work! YOU will be the "lobsters in a pot", not me!

I would be perfectly willing to see theories tested in reality. I'm a "Utilitarian", after all. If it works out for you I could not argue you made a wrong choice. If it didn't work out I would shed a small tear for some of my Quebecois friends and their families but still on the whole, if Quebec made its bed then it would have to lie in it! If it turned out lumpy...oh well!

As long as I can still import the odd Bras D'or ou Chamblis bier I would treat it as an academic experiment, where the results would not likely hurt ME!

[bleeding heart]

I would be perfectly willing to see theories tested in reality. I'm a "Utilitarian", after all. If it works out for you I could not argue you made a wrong choice.

Good man, and good point. I have my doubts as well. But when things do work...well, there it is, right?

[Signals.Cpl]

It will carry a similar value. What do you see Québec as? A terrorist hot spot dictatorship led by a tyrant? There would be no reason for countries to look down on a Québec passport whatsoever. Just like countries of similar or inferior size manage, Québec would.

Nations have agreements with each other which increase the value of their passport, Canada has been building those relations for decades and it seems a little ridiculous that you would assume that Quebec will have the same access and privileges without making the efforts and agreements.

Yes, as these taxes already do. I also believe Québec does not proportionally need as much defense nor spending overseas which would save us money rather than cost us more money. There is no chance in hell we'd be putting 30+ and some billions for fighter jets, for instance.

No, but at the same time you would need some military which you cannot afford, simply said you would have much more in expenses even if we assume you can get away with 15% of the defence budget thats 3 billion add every other increase like needing to increase bureaucracy to support a federal government and increase bureaucracy to support overseas foreign affairs. Quebec will need a military of certain capabilities or the UN just might close their border with you thereby killing off your economy.

Businesses will not flee as long as it makes sense for them to be in Québec. In the end, money talks. I do not believe they will do it out of spite because Québec has just become a country. What makes Québec advantageous for them today will make it just as advantageous tomorrow.

No but crown corporations will leave because you cannot have crown corporations HQ's in a different country, then add to that businesses that would want to do business with Canada and would thus have no use for the limited French Market. Throw in businesses that cater directly to government contracts which would go to other Canadian companies because why should we give business to Quebec when we could give it to deserving Canadians?

Québec's budget is 70 millions WITHOUT money sent to Ottawa. In short, that's pretty much half the budget an independent Québec would have.

70 million? That won't cover much now would it? Now if you say 70 billion that includes the 10+% coming from the federal government in the form of Equalization payments, you lose that immediately in this case you get more from the federal government than you give so there you go even with the taxes you will have less money to spend while at the same time having a greater burden on your budget. In 2009 the Federal government collected roughly 40 Billion in revenues from Quebec yet spend over 53 billion on Quebec which is a net difference of a little over -13,000,000,000 dollars good luck making that up.

Something else, you do not seem to much understand how equalization works as Québec does not receive a net 7.4 millions from it. It just so happens that Québec also pays for the equalization program, as do all provinces. At least 3.5 millions of these 7.5 millions come from Québec, which makes it an actual redistribution of 4 mils.

How about you post a source for this.

Equalization is only a small part of all transfer payments directly transfered from Ottawa to the provinces. Here lays the real numbers you should be looking at. When Ottawa transfers 5 bils to the Ontario auto industry, it isn't something you'll see laid down in the equalization columns.

Yeah but the question is not Ontario, because Ontario will not need to form its own federal government it will remain within Canada, without the federal government Quebec is in for a rude awakening when they realize the same services you enjoyed when part of Canada disappear because they cannot be covered with the new limited budget.

It is commonly known that Slovakia has done much better since the split and is one of the fastest growing european country largely because of it.

When you start from the bottom, you have nowhere to go but up.

Independence has helped them grow, it has not sunk them. They are not reduced to survive on national pride.

Yeah, their economy tanked after the split and they would need a lot of time to catch up to what they enjoyed as part of Czechoslovakia. I am all for Quebec leaving the country just like many people in TROC are willing to kick Quebec out, a much reduced Quebec through since we cannot take away citizenship from the millions of loyal citizens who want to remain a part of Canada. When Quebec realizes that its not all so very nice to be independent and go through some serious dark times there would be a movement to get back in Canada, if Canadians should decide to let Quebec in it would be on the terms of TROC which means bye bye bilingualism and special treatment.

[August1991]

Because make no mistake about it August, that is indeed the reality of the situation. Your conception of the values of TROC are completely at odds with that of all of us who live here!

Have you ever lived for an extended period of time in TROC, August? Frankly, you always sound very much the typical introverted, parochial French Canadian. I don't mean this to be insulting. It works quite similarly in reverse with we Anglos towards Quebec, as I am sure most Quebecers have always known quite well.

If we are ever going to get past all this and be a truly united country we are going to have to deal with realities as they are and not confuse it with the desires of our heart.

Wild Bill, I lived in Edmonton when I was young. Then, I worked in Ottawa. My family roots are from Newfoundland, and also Labrador.

But frankly, whatever I think of TROC, it remains that Ontario without Canada is Michigan, and Toronto is another Detroit.

----

Quebec and Alberta and Newfoundland, like Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden, offer something to the world. What does Ontario or Toronto offer, other than being places in Canada?

[For the life of me, I wish Joey Smallwood had travelled to Iceland and learned about its cod fishery.]

----

I agree with the idea of Canada's confederation. When it comes to governments and State, I'm a federalist; I'm no nationalist. But when it comes to private beliefs, language; I'm an ardent defender of collectivism. With that said, a civilized State must guarantee minority rights.

Edited July 8, 2012 by August1991

[na85]

What does Ontario or Toronto offer, other than being places in Canada?

Manufactured autos, parts, electrical and mechanical machinery, paper and other pulp products, plastics, and an awful lot of minerals.

Yes, the Ontario economy is not as strong as it was in the 90s and early 2000's. Yes, Alberta continues to benefit from the luck of being founded over top of some oil deposits.

But the idea that Ontario is destitute and solely leeching away precious dollars from those oh-so-hard-working Albertans and Québeckers has been created by the Conservative Party propaganda machine.

Don't tell me you're drinking the kool-aid?

Edited July 8, 2012 by na85

[Moonbox]

I'm not going to waste my time explaining Greece's economics to you because evidently things need to be black and white for you. Unfortunately, the real world isn't that simple.

Greece's economic situation is incredibly easy to explain. When a country demands the benefits and wages from their government that a first-world western economy would enjoy, but lacks the work ethic/productivity to support it, you're halfway there. All you need after that is a population that tolerates/encourages corruption at such a basic systemic level that tax avoidance and bribery are the norms, rather than the exceptions, and you have Greece.

The fact that you tried to blame it on right-wing government shows how poorly you understand the situation yourself.

[Moonbox]

The Moonbox argument is Who effing cares about the relationship between Albertans and any party? Alberta's irrelevant. Any party that sets that coldly practical standard is shooting itself in the foot and is therefore illogical. In fact I would say that it merely dresses itself up in the cloth of pragmatism to hide the true spite motivating it.

I was on holidays but I thought this was funny and worth commenting on.

That's not my argument at all. My argument was that Quebec's lack of willingness to cooperate has left them irrelevant. Rather than trying to actually be a part of Canada and participate in the debate and formation of policy, Quebec's insisted on a direction which has wildly diverged from TROC. It's played spoiler, stomped its feet and complained/protested when this direction has not been accepted. The whole idea of the BLOC itself is quite frankly retarded, because it suggests an "us vs them" situation where Quebec's pitted itself against TROC.

Unless this changes and Quebec moderates, governments are going to find it FAR easier to build (relative) consensus in anglo-Canada and ignore Quebec than to try and include Quebec in some sort of anglo-franco Canadian policy model. The NDP's success in Quebec is promising in this regard, but it remains to be seen how this relationship will work out. The NDP has to maintain this relationship with Quebec, while at the same time ensuring that they don't get bogged down with the regional demands that support from Quebec has usually required. The NDP still needs to reach out to TROC and remain focused Canada, rather than largely Quebec.

[Wild Bill]

Unless this changes and Quebec moderates, governments are going to find it FAR easier to build (relative) consensus in anglo-Canada and ignore Quebec than to try and include Quebec in some sort of anglo-franco Canadian policy model. The NDP's success in Quebec is promising in this regard, but it remains to be seen how this relationship will work out. The NDP has to maintain this relationship with Quebec, while at the same time ensuring that they don't get bogged down with the regional demands that support from Quebec has usually required. The NDP still needs to reach out to TROC and remain focused Canada, rather than largely Quebec.

I feel sorry for the NDP in this regard. I chalk it up to their inexperience with being a powerful party rather than the traditional 3rd place also-ran.

I don't think they have yet realized just how dicey a tightwalk they're on! They are used to a very loyal support base but their new and expanded base is a different animal entirely. They are either Quebecois or people who have never voted for them before. Both these groups have no history of loyalty to the NDP and have very different values and expectations than that traditional support base. They could leave them almost en masse if they feel disappointed!

If I were a NDP strategist I would be having many sleepless nights between now and the next election.

[Signals.Cpl]

I feel sorry for the NDP in this regard. I chalk it up to their inexperience with being a powerful party rather than the traditional 3rd place also-ran.

I don't think they have yet realized just how dicey a tightwalk they're on! They are used to a very loyal support base but their new and expanded base is a different animal entirely. They are either Quebecois or people who have never voted for them before. Both these groups have no history of loyalty to the NDP and have very different values and expectations than that traditional support base. They could leave them almost en masse if they feel disappointed!

If I were a NDP strategist I would be having many sleepless nights between now and the next election.

How many in the NDP actually see the situation clearly though? Most believe that someone else is trying to divide Quebec from TROC rather than seeing the true culprit which is the way Quebec puts itself above the other provinces and demands special treatment which divides the country in to us and them… It would be an interesting day when the NDP get this point and who would they blame? Would they blame Quebec for switching allegiance because the NDP did not do what was best for Quebec, but tried to do what was best for Canada, would the blame the conservatives for creating the divide?

[Wild Bill]

How many in the NDP actually see the situation clearly though?

Well Corporal, we are going to find out how many, very soon...

[cybercoma]

The fact that you tried to blame it on right-wing government shows how poorly you understand the situation yourself.

Show me where I blame it on "right-wing government" because I didn't. You're misreading something.

[August1991]

I feel sorry for the NDP in this regard. I chalk it up to their inexperience with being a powerful party rather than the traditional 3rd place also-ran.

I don't think they have yet realized just how dicey a tightwalk they're on! They are used to a very loyal support base but their new and expanded base is a different animal entirely. They are either Quebecois or people who have never voted for them before.

WB, you describe well Brian Mulroney's situation in 1983. He was on the cusp of assembling a broad coalition of Canada's regions. It was a tightwalk.

But heck, Trudeau did almost the same in 1968, and Diefenbaker before him.

It is in the nature of Canadian federal politics. It's always a tight walk of competing regional interests, regional attraction.

Edited July 9, 2012 by August1991

[Moonbox]

Show me where I blame it on "right-wing government" because I didn't. You're misreading something.

Really?

You don't really have a firm grasp on Greece's problems, do you? You know how the Conservatives destroyed Ottawa's fiscal capacity by slashing taxes, but continued spending. Greece is in a similar situation, except people just refuse to pay their taxes there. The problem in Greece is a hell of a lot closer to what the Conservatives are doing than any of these hypotheticals you make up about the NDP.

How the hell do you use Greece to try and score points against the Conservatives? Greece's problems didn't happen overnight, or even over the last few years. It takes many years (think 10-20) for a country to get itself in the position Greece finds itself in. Your implications are pretty obvious here.