Quebec marginalized

[Signals.Cpl]

That is correct. No fault whatsoever. Citizens of Quebec get one vote each. Voters in Quebec are as relevant as any body else in this country. So the 'irrelevant' argument is mere sour grapes cause they vote for someone you dont approve of. Under your 'irrelevant' argument all other voters are also irrelevant. There is absolutely no rational argument to say some voters are relevant and some are not.

Until recently it has been politician's main job to keep Quebec happy which is unlikely because there are always more demands, if you give in to one demand 3 more pop up. It is a fairly simple concept, the Conservatives won a majority government while only getting 5 seats from Quebec's 75 seats, this shows that there is no need to give in to Quebec's demands to win a majority. IF Quebec has excessive demands that consistently place it at odds with TROC but Quebec is deemed a necessity for a majority then the government in power MUST walk a tight rope, keep Quebec Happy and keep TROC Happy which is hard as a compromise generally does not make Quebec happy nor does it make TROC happy. Right now the party in power does not need to pander to Quebec's every demand, while the NDP needs to fight for Quebec at every turn because over 55% of the NDP's seats are in Quebec and if they lose those seats the NDP will likely not get to form a minority government let alone a majority at least not in the next few elections, but at the same time if they appear to be Quebec's party that also poses problems for them as as they might alienate TROC and thus lose their chance to form a government.

[westguy]

Oh for goodness sake...Look if you guys have no interest in pandering to Quebec or seeking any support from Quebec thats fine. Do so - or more accurately - don't do so. But lets save the crap about it being Quebecs fault. Take responsibility for your position. Its very simple: you have no need to get Quebec on board the party program. Quebec is not needed. Quebec is irrelevant to the party. Therefore YOU choose to ignore Quebecs interests. ....then blame Quebec for your decisions?

"interess" - surely you mean Quebec's extortionate demands

[westguy]

This is what the CPC does. It pits the regions against each other, then blames it on the other parties or the regions themselves.

you seem to have a perverse hatred for the Cons. No government is perfect but are you able to ID a beter government for Canada?

[Rick]

you seem to have a perverse hatred for the Cons. No government is perfect but are you able to ID a beter government for Canada?

Yes. Anyone but them would be better.

[Rick]

"interess" - surely you mean Quebec's extortionate demands

You mean like Alberta's extortionate demands.....

There's as many separatists in Alberta as there are in Quebec.

[Signals.Cpl]

Yes. Anyone but them would be better.

Like the BQ? Right on kiddo.

[Signals.Cpl]

You mean like Alberta's extortionate demands.....

There's as many separatists in Alberta as there are in Quebec.

Is Alberta a "nation within a nation"? How many referendums on independence has Alberta had so far?

[Peter F]

"interess" - surely you mean Quebec's extortionate demands

Me? Ha! It is you that equates any Quebec interest with extortion - not I. Never have never will.

[Wild Bill]

Is Alberta a "nation within a nation"? How many referendums on independence has Alberta had so far?

Yeah, and last I checked Alberta didn't have its own embassies and immigration department...

[Peter F]

... It is a fairly simple concept, the Conservatives won a majority government while only getting 5 seats from Quebec's 75 seats, this shows that there is no need to give in to Quebec's demands to win a majority. ...

Oh yes, as I have said before, I get that. What you dont seem to get is this: if 75 Quebec ridings are irrelevant then 28 Alberta ridings are also irrelevant since those ridings are not necessary to form a government. Same applies to every other province in the country. Thus all provinces are irrelevant thus making the Moonbox argument meaningless.

The very same irrelevant argument was used by the Liberals - Alberta is irrelevant. According to you that is an intelligent thought process by a Federal Political party. Actually good for the country.

My point being that such a thought process by any political party in this grand land is completely Stoopid and you fools embrace it!

[g_bambino]

It's time for Quebec to change course. It's perfectly do-able.

Indeed. Quebec was different before the Quiet Revolution, and it can be different again in future. It's just, what that "different" will be we have no way of knowing. But I wonder how many separatist Quebecers, underneath all the nationalistic bombast, really believe the province can make it as a country. I'd like to think not that many; there is some rationality buried in there somewhere.

[Wild Bill]

Oh yes, as I have said before, I get that. What you dont seem to get is this: if 75 Quebec ridings are irrelevant then 28 Alberta ridings are also irrelevant since those ridings are not necessary to form a government. Same applies to every other province in the country. Thus all provinces are irrelevant thus making the Moonbox argument meaningless.

The very same irrelevant argument was used by the Liberals - Alberta is irrelevant. According to you that is an intelligent thought process by a Federal Political party. Actually good for the country.

My point being that such a thought process by any political party in this grand land is completely Stoopid and you fools embrace it!

You seem to completely confuse coldly logical games theory with emotional value judgements, Peter. As usual, any question demands a context!

I don't recall anyone saying that ignoring Quebec is good for the country. Certainly, I would never have said that myself. My own emotional preference has always been for a united Canada. I just don't believe that any price to achieve that is positive.

At the time the Liberals enjoyed a long stretch of power Alberta seats WERE irrelevant! As long as the context was simply to stay in power, that was the case. Emotionally, it severely damaged the relationship for the long term between many westerners and the Liberal Party, which is now paying the price for that choice.

I would say that if you view all politics in such an emotional light you are lucky you are not responsible for trying to increase support for any party! You are entitled to your own opinions, no matter how emotional they may be. However, you lessen the chances of many wanting to share your position.

[Peter F]

As long as the context was simply to stay in power, that was the case. Emotionally, it severely damaged the relationship for the long term between many westerners and the Liberal Party, which is now paying the price for that choice.

The Moonbox argument is Who effing cares about the relationship between Albertans and any party? Alberta's irrelevant. Any party that sets that coldly practical standard is shooting itself in the foot and is therefore illogical. In fact I would say that it merely dresses itself up in the cloth of pragmatism to hide the true spite motivating it.

[Wild Bill]

The Moonbox argument is Who effing cares about the relationship between Albertans and any party? Alberta's irrelevant. Any party that sets that coldly practical standard is shooting itself in the foot and is therefore illogical. In fact I would say that it merely dresses itself up in the cloth of pragmatism to hide the true spite motivating it.

I don't recall making any Moonbox argument. I thought I was making my own.

Sorry. I'll leave you alone.

[August1991]

CC, the West is the only region that is making money! The rest of the country is TAKING money!

WB, in this long thread, this idea is the most disturbing of all.

You define making money as paying taxes. Your definition of a rich society is one in which the government collects alot of tax revenue.

IMHO, your definition of wealth is troubling and even terrifying. According to you, WB, Alberta is rich because its government can collect taxes. WB, is the State's ability to collect taxes the measure of a society's wealth?

Edited July 2, 2012 by August1991

[dre]

I doubt that, there is a gap and it's already pretty large and that is due to Quebec but a portion of the blame goes to the federal parties of the last few decades who have been trying to buy the Quebec vote no matter how harmful it is to the country. If Quebec realizes that the party that forms government does not need them then it might change their point of view, as long as the CPC treats Quebec just like any other province then everything is alright.

A few tards does not a gap make.

I dont know ANYONE outside of these forums that care much about this at all. Most Canadians arent sitting around worrying about Quebec.

[Wild Bill]

WB, in this long thread, this idea is the most disturbing of all.

You define making money as paying taxes. Your definition of a rich society is one in which the government collects alot of tax revenue.

IMHO, your definition of wealth is troubling and even terrifying. According to you, WB, Alberta is rich because its government can collect taxes. WB, is the State's ability to collect taxes the measure of a society's wealth?

In what context, August? As far as providing jobs and income, Alberta is richer than Ontario, at this point in time.

In the context of culture, Newfoundland has the rest of the country beat for music and fun, hands down!

Just as money by itself can be cold, it's hard to party when your kids are hungry.

[August1991]

Myself, I've lived here all my life. I don't know ANYBODY who gives a damn what Quebec thinks about Harper or much of anything else, for that matter!

But IME/IMK, southern WASP Ontarians loved/voted for Roman Catholic Laurier, St-Laurent, Trudeau and Chrétien. Why? They were Quebec federalists.

And without Canada, Ontario is, well, just another Michigan; and Toronto is just another Detroit.

Imagine.

Edited July 2, 2012 by August1991

[Rocky Road]

But IME/IMK, southern WASP Ontarians loved/voted for Roman Catholic Laurier, St-Laurent, Trudeau and Chrétien. Why? They were Quebec federalists.

And without Canada, Ontario is, well, just another Michigan; and Toronto is just another Detroit.

Imagine.

Vive Canada!

We need to encourage Quebec federalism and continue integration of our societies. We are all one.

[Wild Bill]

But IME/IMK, southern WASP Ontarians loved/voted for Roman Catholic Laurier, St-Laurent, Trudeau and Chrétien. Why? They were Quebec federalists.

And without Canada, Ontario is, well, just another Michigan; and Toronto is just another Detroit.

Imagine.

August, I feel you are trying to argue strategic points with emotional patriotism. That just can't work.

As I have said several times, I too want a united Canada. However, my feelings are not going to change a damn thing as far as how things are REALLY working!

It is a fact that Quebec has very different values than TROC, perhaps far more in tune with the NDp than the Tories. They are not likely to embrace much of Harper's team unless he becomes very much more leftwing in his approach.

It is also a fact that this would hurt his support in TROC quite deeply.

How we feel about this is quite irrelevant. It is what it is!

It is a far smarter move for Harper to protect and encourage his support in TROC than to try to appeal to Quebecers. He has already learned he can get a majority without Quebec.

If that doesn't make Quebec irrelevant I don't know what else does! How do our feelings change such facts?

Do you have any other ideas as to what the CPC could do next election? THAT WOULD WORK?

Or do you think Harper SHOULD try to cater to Quebec and thus lose his majority?

Because make no mistake about it August, that is indeed the reality of the situation. Your conception of the values of TROC are completely at odds with that of all of us who live here!

Have you ever lived for an extended period of time in TROC, August? Frankly, you always sound very much the typical introverted, parochial French Canadian. I don't mean this to be insulting. It works quite similarly in reverse with we Anglos towards Quebec, as I am sure most Quebecers have always known quite well.

If we are ever going to get past all this and be a truly united country we are going to have to deal with realities as they are and not confuse it with the desires of our heart.

[Vineon]

All I have is a big *yawn* for the sovereignty argument. Montreal isn't interested.

Is Montréal all there is in Québec?

Is "Greater Montréal" actually not interested?

[Vineon]

Is Montréal all there is in Québec?

Is "Greater Montréal" actually not interested?

They can grow up once the bluff of separation from Canada is called. Once they see that TROC don't care wether they stay or not they will rethink their position. What the government needs to do is remove all those special rights that Quebec get that other provinces don't get, let them threaten separation and when TROC shows them the door, I highly doubt they will think twice about leaving Canada and will likely start playing nice with the rest of us.

As a separatist myself, this is a "gamble" I dream Canada would take.

[Signals.Cpl]

As a separatist myself, this is a "gamble" I dream Canada would take.

As a person living in TROC I would really like to see it as well, the second Quebec leaves the country every issue they have advanced in the name of the Quebec cause will be stricken down, Quebec will automatically lose over 10% of their provincial income yet gain much more in expenses as it would be the national government. Quebec citizens lose Canadian citizenship and and get a passport that won't take them very far, they will lose dozens if not hundreds of companies that would move or be forced to move to Canada, no more protection for your dairy farmers and there go your secure markets as well.

Economy that is in the gutters, a passport that is only useful for toilet paper, the fact that you will shoulder 1/4 of the federal debt on top of your provincial debt while trying to get a new currency going, as well as looking for new markets to sell the overpriced products coming out of your farms... not to mention the exodus of english and bilingual people in Quebec who will prefer to keep a Canadian passport and live in a prosperous country rather then live in a country with an unemployment rate that will be 2-3 times our current unemployment rate. Add to that the little fact that with your collapsing economy you cannot maintain a military of any kind and will force you to cut police budgets which will likely destroy any tourist industry you MIGHT have after separation but on top of that likely both Canada and the US will see Quebec as a security threat and thus will close off the borders and there goes the rest of your economy. Ten years after separation you will be the proud recipient of food aid from NGO's, post-secondary education costs will be through the roof, no universal healthcare, no early retirement and by early I mean retirement before the age of 80 because no old age security...

In a few years good old Quebec will be knocking on the door of Canada asking to be back in, and guess what if Canada as a whole decided to accept Quebec back in every special right, every little privilege that TROC had given to Quebec will be gone, no more bilingualism, and no more political power because threatening separation well will be an empty threat. Quebec will be in a much worse position post separation than TROC, and those spoiled and entitled little brats who protest tuition hikes will have much more to protest if it ever came to Quebec separating.

[Wild Bill]

As a separatist myself, this is a "gamble" I dream Canada would take.

You are entitled to your dream, Vineon. While I would prefer to have a united Canada I would respect a free and democratic choice from Quebecers.

Where I take exception is when I hear outright ridiculous claims from BQ and PQ leaders that the separation would be painless and that it would not hurt Quebec financially - that TROC would cheerfully support a common currency and be all warm, loving and fuzzy about dividing up assets and responsibities.

This is just romantic crap! TROC would be hurt and angry! Any politician who appeared to be soft on a separation agreement towards Quebec would be committing political suicide!

Remember, when Quebec no longer had seats to offer a party it would immediately become irrelevant to the fortunes of a politician and his party.

In the long run I believe Quebec would adjust to being a separate nation but a lot of people would be hurt in the meantime.

[westguy]

As a person living in TROC I would really like to see it as well, the second Quebec leaves the country every issue they have advanced in the name of the Quebec cause will be stricken down, Quebec will automatically lose over 10% of their provincial income yet gain much more in expenses as it would be the national government. Quebec citizens lose Canadian citizenship and and get a passport that won't take them very far, they will lose dozens if not hundreds of companies that would move or be forced to move to Canada, no more protection for your dairy farmers and there go your secure markets as well.

Economy that is in the gutters, a passport that is only useful for toilet paper, the fact that you will shoulder 1/4 of the federal debt on top of your provincial debt while trying to get a new currency going, as well as looking for new markets to sell the overpriced products coming out of your farms... not to mention the exodus of english and bilingual people in Quebec who will prefer to keep a Canadian passport and live in a prosperous country rather then live in a country with an unemployment rate that will be 2-3 times our current unemployment rate. Add to that the little fact that with your collapsing economy you cannot maintain a military of any kind and will force you to cut police budgets which will likely destroy any tourist industry you MIGHT have after separation but on top of that likely both Canada and the US will see Quebec as a security threat and thus will close off the borders and there goes the rest of your economy. Ten years after separation you will be the proud recipient of food aid from NGO's, post-secondary education costs will be through the roof, no universal healthcare, no early retirement and by early I mean retirement before the age of 80 because no old age security...

In a few years good old Quebec will be knocking on the door of Canada asking to be back in, and guess what if Canada as a whole decided to accept Quebec back in every special right, every little privilege that TROC had given to Quebec will be gone, no more bilingualism, and no more political power because threatening separation well will be an empty threat. Quebec will be in a much worse position post separation than TROC, and those spoiled and entitled little brats who protest tuition hikes will have much more to protest if it ever came to Quebec separating.

Quebec will be a third world basket case within a few weeks of leaving Canada. They will lose the billions they get from TROC in transfer payments which allows and lowest daycare in the country. Godd riddance.