Current Govt worse than ignorant

[socialist]

At no point in time anywhere on this planet, so far as I'm aware of, has any people been willing to sacrifice their economic interests in the interest of environmentalism. The entire concept is one embraced mainly by comfortable liberal elites who face no particular economic challenges. When you get down to the bedrock working man what he wants is a job so he can support his family. It'd be nice, he'd say, if the environment was protected, but not if it costs him a job.

That you don't know this, that you can't even conceive of it, just shows how far you and the NDP are from the common man. Your party is a party of the liberal elites, and even they will run in droves the instant their own personal economic interests are threatened by 'green' policies.

you are wrong. in 2015 PM mulcair will have a thriving economy based on green energy projects.

[g_bambino]

[it seems you] can[']t debate the issue[,] so you [choose] to cri[t]icize gramm[a]r.

Tisk, tisk.

[Shady]

you are wrong. in 2015 PM mulcair will have a thriving economy based on green energy projects.

Yep, Solyndra for everyone!

[socialist]

Yep, Solyndra for everyone!

solyndra was just a smear campaign against obama by right wing fanatics.

[TimG]

It's quite another thing to deliberately misrepresent the way governments are chosen and dismissed in Westminster parliamentary democracies

Nonsense. The NDP has often complained about the 'undemocratic' system when it was a minority party (the greens still do). They were just as guilty of misrepresenting the nature of the system for political gain as the conservatives.

Here is a quote from Jacko to support my point:

Three elections in a row now—in fact, I think we can say four, if we add in the year 2000, maybe even more, but certainly those four—we've had less than forty percent of the people voting for a government, and yet that government gets the power. It's absurd, wrong, and totally undemocratic

Why do you insist on singling out the conservatives for political rhetoric that all parties are guilty of from time to time? Edited June 27, 2012 by TimG

[g_bambino]

ome nobody ex professor the media chooses to refer to as a "constitutional expert"...

Um, he's one of the advisors to governors general on constitutional matters.

[g_bambino]

Why do you insist on singling out the conservatives for political rhetoric that all parties are guilty of from time to time?

Why do you insist on cherrypicking parts of my posts to avoid the salient points?

Ministers of the Crown, and specifically the Prime Minsister, are being singled out. They were in 2008 Conservative. They are being singled out because they deliberately uttered lies. They are being further singled out because they deliberately uttered lies about the fundamental constitutional laws of parliamentary democracy and, in doing so, undermined the system itself. That demonstrably is not the same as mere political rhetoric that all parties are guilty of.

[+]

Edited June 27, 2012 by g_bambino

[Smallc]

The NDP is wrong when they say that...the Conservative's were wrong when they said this. Happy?

[Shady]

solyndra was just a smear campaign against obama by right wing fanatics.

Oh definitely. In fact, they didn't even really go bankrupt. Either did the 4 other green energy companies funded by Obama last year.

[g_bambino]

The NDP is wrong when they say that...the Conservative's were wrong when they said this. Happy?

I disagree with what Layton apparently said and think he put it poorly, limiting the definition of "democracy" to suit his personal opinion. However, it's still just part of an argument about what's a more democratic electoral process.

That isn't comparable to what Harper and some other ministers said to the public in December 2008. Harper did not opine "I think the government should be popularly elected and only chosen in that manner because that'd be democratic". He - the Prime Minister, no less - made two absolutely counterfactual claims about how he gets and loses his job: 1) the government is directly elected by "the people" and 2) the House of Commons cannot shift its confidence between elections. In the eyes of much of the public that doesn't know any better, this undermined the powers of parliament and the governor general and thus the whole working of responsible government. It's that for which Russell condemns Harper and the other Conservative MPs who parroted him.

[TimG]

they deliberately uttered lies about the fundamental constitutional laws of parliamentary democracy

Are why are those lies any worse than the deliberate lies uttered by Jack Layton when he claimed a duely elected majority was undemocratic? Why do you call Layton's words a 'poorly stated argument' but characterize Harper's comments on a coalition as 'deliberate lies'? You are drawing distinctions where I see none. Edited June 27, 2012 by TimG

[BubberMiley]

At no point in time anywhere on this planet, so far as I'm aware of, has any people been willing to sacrifice their economic interests in the interest of environmentalism.

You must live a very sheltered life to not be aware of any environmental catastrophes whatsoever.

[CPCFTW]

this goverment is destroying my canada. we need mulcair and the ndp and we need them now before harper turns this into dick cheyney ville. all students in all public schools need to be taught how the cons are destroying are enviroment and our nation.

cant debate the issue so you have to criicize grammer.

You want me to debate this? To debate if the government is destroying Canada, if Harper is turning Canada into "dick cheyney ville", if Mulcair is the only person who can stop it, and if all public schools should be taught that the democratically elected government is destroying our environment and nation?

I'm sorry but I'll pass on that "debate".

[eyeball]

When Harper did that, he misled a lot of people about their own system of governance and, by doing so, also undermined it, preemptively cutting down in the eyes of much of the public both parliament's and the Governor General's powers, implying that if either did anything they in truth could but contrary to the falsehoods Harper said, it would be undemocratic and illegitimate. That's pretty crass and irresponsible.

And nary a Monarch around when you really need one.

Meh...

[gunrutz]

Actually, you're wrong. They don't give a damn about a job if they can't breathe or eat.

Name one person in Canada that can't breathe or eat because our environment. It's a recurring theme here, some of you have no ability to debate honestly.

[gunrutz]

this goverment is destroying my canada. we need mulcair and the ndp and we need them now before harper turns this into dick cheyney ville. all students in all public schools need to be taught how the cons are destroying are enviroment and our nation.

Maybe your Canada deserves to be destroyed, meanwhile my Canada is virtually the same as it was last year, or ten years ago, mostly in the middle ignoring the rants of extremists.

[bleeding heart]

I also have no patience for partisan yahoos who raise a lot of noise about irrelevant issues when they know that if the tables were reversed they would defend their party for doing exactly the same thing.

For crying out loud. This would have some teeth if you weren't explicitly guilty of doing exactly what you claim to abhor...in this thread.

I think we can (or should) all agree that many of the issues surrounding the Conservative Government are not unique to them.

But we should also agree that to hold them accountable and to criticize them is legitimate anyway...they're the Government, for Chrissakes.

Even if you're correct (and I think you are) that, were the tables turned, many political opponents would now be defending the Government...you do not agree with that behaviour. You think it's stupid partisanship.

So this should be a no-brainer.

The Government lied, they lied about important (not trivial) Parliamentary matters.

That's it.

Edited June 27, 2012 by bleeding heart

[bleeding heart]

You want me to debate this? To debate if the government is destroying Canada, if Harper is turning Canada into "dick cheyney ville", if Mulcair is the only person who can stop it, and if all public schools should be taught that the democratically elected government is destroying our environment and nation?

I'm sorry but I'll pass on that "debate".

Good choice.

[TimG]

Even if you're correct (and I think you are) that, were the tables turned, many political opponents would now be defending the Government...you do not agree with that behaviour. You think it's stupid partisanship.

You seem to have not noticed but I am not defending the conservatives. I am conceding that the critics have a point. What I am not doing is jumping on the hyperbole bandwagon.

If another party wants to impress me with promises to do something differently then they need to start by changing their party constitution to allow sitting PMs to be deposed by the other sitting members of the caucus. This is the way it works in other Westminster parliaments and it does a lot to prevent the centralization of power in the PMO.

However, I don't see that happening because Canadian political leaders don't want to give up their ability to be a despot.

Edited June 27, 2012 by TimG

[Topaz]

Does anyone think the Tories could change their ways if the next leader was more conservative then alliance? IF Harper is a conservative then why was most the the conservatives from Alberta supporting the Alliance in the last provincial elections? Since the PC won the election, that mean if Harper wanted to run for the provincial election is would run for the alliance? I don't think no Conservatives in the past, would pull the stuff he's pulling, even Mulroney has more respect for Parliament than this dude.

[Tilter]

this goverment is destroying my canada. we need mulcair and the ndp and we need them now before harper turns this into dick cheyney ville. all students in all public schools need to be taught how the cons are destroying are enviroment and our nation.

Why? Will Mulcair & dippers do a better job of destroying Canada?

Think --- NDP/Rae govt -- Ontario disaster BC dippers stealing money from the bingo charity funds--- ETC

[Tilter]

mulcair would make my dream canada come true. a green and clean canada

gag me with a spoon :blink:

[Guest Peeves]

I think 'Constitutional Expert" is a euphemism for lobbyists from the prunes and laxative industry.

BTW, My constitution is fine, I'm sure you're concerned. I eat prunes and as I do, I read such posts and think...this too shall pass.

[guyser]

Do you want to talk the whole thing over again or do you somehow feel that because some nobody ex professor the media chooses to refer to as a "constitutional expert" says nasty things about the Tories this somehow expands upon the topic?

Now thats funny, considering he is the first or second foremost expert on Constitutional matters.

But par for the course, attack the expert since he must be anti-Cons.

For the rest of the answer, read post 25. That guy knows.

[PIK]

this goverment is destroying my canada. we need mulcair and the ndp and we need them now before harper turns this into dick cheyney ville. all students in all public schools need to be taught how the cons are destroying are enviroment and our nation.

There was a canada before trudeau, a canada that was proud and not afraid of a days work, now we are a country of whinners, DEMANDING THIER ENTITLEMENTS, you sir is what is killing this country.