F-35 Purchase

jacee · April 13, 2012

Why? Because I don't think that the opposition is doing a good job from their end?

No, because you think the opposition shouldn't do a job at all, but should just sit quietly while Harper implements his omnipotent 'mandate'.

What do you think we pay the opposition for ... to sit on their hands or pick their noses for four years?

:rolleyes:

Usually, in Canada, when we refer to the government, we're talking about the executive (cabinet) and the departments that they administer.

"Usually" isn't the issue.

Reality is the issue.

Government is all of the parts working together as a set of checks and balances on each other.

You know ... to ensure that the government works in the best interests of ALL of the people, not just for the constituents who voted for the majority party or the party's financial backers.

Why do I even have to explain these elementary democratic principles and rules to you smallc?

What is the will of the people, exactly? The people don't even know that. We have elections, members are selected, and governments are formed. Right now, the Conservatives have a majority. Deal with it.

Ahh yes ... there it is ... the arrogance that corrupts political power ... "We have a majority! Deal with it!"

We are 'dealing with it'. That's what we pay the opposition for. That's how democracy works. Deal with it!

The will of the people is that when information is requested from 'the ruling party', they provide it ... to Parliament and the public.

The people know that. I should think that's pretty clear right now.

We're not paying Harper to tell us what he wants us to know. We're paying him to tell us what WE want to know.

And again there's the arrogance and contempt for Canadians that HarperCons are famous for ... "What is the will of the people ... the people don't even know that."

Did you really say that? Yep ... there it is in black and white and blue!

You obviously don't know how corporate business works...or a majority in a parliamentary democracy. Harper doesn't represent the people (other than those from Calgary - Southwest).

Really? When our Prime Minister represents Canada internationally he really only represents the people of Calgary-Southwest?

What about the oilboys from Edmonton? :lol:

Please show me where that 'rule' is written.

He runs the executive and it's departments, and sets policy for the country, with the help of Parliament.

"He" is accountable to Parliament, and to ALL of the people of Canada.

I'm not a 'Harper Con', so I'm not even sure who you're addressing here.

Then why defend them when they've done something indefensible?

You're certainly not doing them any favours spewing arrogance and contempt for the people and democracy.

And yet, the government can make (legal, constitutional) decisions, and there's nothing that parliament can do about it.

:blink:

More arrogance and contempt.

Democracy is far more than squealing, yelling, and voting. It's about a system that creates competent stable management.

'... that is accountable to Parliament and to the people of Canada.'

You forgot that part.

And that's a very significant omission and that's what the HarperCons arere currently having to deal with ... the FACT that they have to account to Parliament and to the people of Canada for their decisions.

And they haven't yet produced the information (breakdown of costs) that was requested, and they are still in contempt of Parliament and of the people of Canada.

And your arguments have simply reinforced that 'contempt'.

I mean seriously smallc ... does anyone seriously believe that they are NOT accountable to the people?

And does anyone seriously believe that when Harper signs up for a bombing mission in Libya, he only 'represents' and is only accountable to the people of Calgary-Southwest?

:lol:

I think we're done here.

Edited April 13, 2012 by jacee

eyeball · April 13, 2012

What is the will of the people, exactly? The people don't even know that.

Hence the need for direct democracy to inform us.

jacee · April 13, 2012

Sure thing, Comrade Secretary.

Go hide under your bed with the dead Communists' DoP, cos the Anarchists are coming in the windows with the scary 'direct democracy'.

You know ... the kind of democracy that isn't accountable to the corporatocracy.

Smallc · April 13, 2012

No, because you think the opposition shouldn't do a job at all, but should just sit quietly while Harper implements his omnipotent 'mandate'.

What do you think we pay the opposition for ... to sit on their hands or pick their noses for four years?

You obviously don't understand what I said. The opposition should present alternatives. They shouldn't simply pounce every time they think they have something.

"Usually" isn't the issue.
Reality is the issue.

In that case, you're still pretty much wrong.

Why do I even have to explain these elementary democratic principles and rules to you smallc?

You haven't really explained any rules to me, or principles for that matter, beyond your own.

Ahh yes ... there it is ... the arrogance that corrupts political power ... "We have a majority! Deal with it!"

I thought we were talking about reality?

The will of the people is that when information is requested from 'the ruling party', they provide it ... to Parliament and the public.

That was an entire parliament ago. They already had the info anyway.

And again there's the arrogance and contempt for Canadians that HarperCons are famous for ... "What is the will of the people ... the people don't even know that."

Again, since I'm not a 'HarperCon', I'm not sure who you're talking to.

Really? When our Prime Minister represents Canada internationally he really only represents the people of Calgary-Southwest?

He represents, at that time, the Government of Canada, and not Canada itself.

Please show me where that 'rule' is written.

In the definition of a head of government.

"He" is accountable to Parliament, and to ALL of the people of Canada.

Yes, and currently he controls that parliament, thanks to the people of Canada

Then why defend them when they've done something indefensible?
You're certainly not doing them any favours spewing arrogance and contempt for the people and democracy.

I don't see what they've done that's indefensible, and I don't see why I should care about doing them any favours.

More arrogance and contempt.

Just a recognition of reality. I should clarify though. There is a great deal that Parliament can do, but since the government holds a majority in both houses, there is nothing that opposition can do.

'... that is accountable to Parliament and to the people of Canada.'
You forgot that part.

I certainly didn't forget that part. It goes without saying.

And that's a very significant omission and that's what the HarperCons arere currently having to deal with ... the FACT that they have to account to Parliament and to the people of Canada for their decisions.

It wasn't at all significant.

And they haven't yet produced the information (breakdown of costs) that was requested, and they are still in contempt of Parliament and of the people of Canada.

Again, that was a completely different Parliament.

I think we're done here.

Maybe you are.

Smallc · April 13, 2012

Hence the need for direct democracy to inform us.

The people need to inform themselves. You can start with yourself, if you like.

PIK · April 13, 2012

So I see where former liberal defence minster david pratt says the liberals are shooting blanks on the f-35.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2012/04/12/19626301.html

Time for this to end, if I was a lib,I would be very embarressed by the path that rae has taken the libs down. I would like to hear what the other 2 former defence ministers take is on it.

DogOnPorch · April 13, 2012

Go hide under your bed with the dead Communists' DoP, cos the Anarchists are coming in the windows with the scary 'direct democracy'.

You know ... the kind of democracy that isn't accountable to the corporatocracy.

I'm well aware that what once saluted the hammer and sickle are now out to smash windows @ The Bay. Friends of yours, I'm sure.

Give Putin a big kiss for me when you see him.

eyeball · April 13, 2012

The people need to inform themselves. You can start with yourself, if you like.

Let me rephrase that, society needs to inform itself by listening to the individuals it's comprised of, via direct democracy or a reasonable facsimile thereof and far far more than is currently available.

punked · April 13, 2012

So I see where former liberal defence minster david pratt says the liberals are shooting blanks on the f-35.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2012/04/12/19626301.html

Time for this to end, if I was a lib,I would be very embarressed by the path that rae has taken the libs down. I would like to hear what the other 2 former defence ministers take is on it.

and he was Minster of Defense for how long 8 weeks? Canadians enjoyed his opinions so much they threw him out of office right after he became Minster of Defense.

cybercoma · April 13, 2012

Governing involves managing the country

Managing the country doesn't mean managing the country.

cybercoma · April 13, 2012

No, but the government has a mandate, and the squealing of the opposition shouldn't be their primary concern.

That squealing opposition was duly elected to represent Canadian citizens. Your contempt for your fellow Canadians and the supremacy of parliament is distasteful.

Shady · April 13, 2012

That squealing opposition was duly elected to represent Canadian citizens. Your contempt for your fellow Canadians and the supremacy of parliament is distasteful.

I don't think he has contempt for fellow Canadian. Just the constant crying of wolf by you and your ilk.

Shady · April 13, 2012

The 'scary communists' aren't hiding under your bed anymore.

Like I've already said. It's not about communists, it's about marxists. And they're not hiding under beds, they're protesting out in the open, under the guise of "occupy."

cybercoma · April 13, 2012

I don't think he has contempt for fellow Canadian. Just the constant crying of wolf by you and your ilk.

Newsflash: We're Canadian. Edited April 13, 2012 by cybercoma

cybercoma · April 13, 2012

Like I've already said. It's not about communists, it's about marxists. And they're not hiding under beds, they're protesting out in the open, under the guise of "occupy."

Marx hated Socialists, but with how much you talk about him, I'm sure you're educated enough about his theories to know that.

bud · April 13, 2012

so sad. smallc will go to any length to justify the actions of his abusive spouse.

Smallc · April 13, 2012

People so soon forget that I didn't support this government at all in the beginning, and they did some things that turned me off around 2008 - 2009. Somehow, me supporting their actions now makes me a partisan hack...more so than people who say they they decide how to vote by looking for the NDP beside a candidate's name.

DogOnPorch · April 13, 2012

People so soon forget that I didn't support this government at all in the beginning, and they did some things that turned me off around 2008 - 2009. Somehow, me supporting their actions now makes me a partisan hack...more so than people who say they they decide how to vote by looking for the NDP beside a candidate's name.

It makes me all teary-eyed seeing these hacks reminiscing about Marx & crew.

They were glory days...days of thunder.

:lol:

punked · April 13, 2012

People so soon forget that I didn't support this government at all in the beginning, and they did some things that turned me off around 2008 - 2009. Somehow, me supporting their actions now makes me a partisan hack...more so than people who say they they decide how to vote by looking for the NDP beside a candidate's name.

No I remember Smallc. You use to be straight down the middle of the spectrum. What happened?

Smallc · April 13, 2012

No I remember Smallc. You use to be straight down the middle of the spectrum. What happened?

I haven't changed (much). I simply don't see another party doing anything I like at the time, and I support the purchase of these jets in even larger numbers than proposed.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Smallc

punked · April 13, 2012

I haven't changed (much). I simply don't see another party doing anything I like at the time, and I support the purchase of these jets in even larger numbers than proposed.

That is a fair position to have. Although do you really (even if you support these jets) argue what the Cons did is right when it is clearly wrong. I mean even if you think their costing was the right way to do it, you must agree under the rules they should have opened the books when parliament told them to. I honestly I don't think 2009 Smallc would be taking the position 2011 Smallc is taking even though 2009 Smallc still agreed with buying these planes.

Smallc · April 13, 2012

That is a fair position to have. Although do you really (even if you support these jets) argue what the Cons did is right when it is clearly wrong. I mean even if you think their costing was the right way to do it, you must agree under the rules they should have opened the books when parliament told them to. I honestly I don't think 2009 Smallc would be taking the position 2011 Smallc is taking even though 2009 Smallc still agreed with buying these planes.

They should have given the numbers, but I understand why they didn't.

Shady · April 13, 2012

People so soon forget that I didn't support this government at all in the beginning, and they did some things that turned me off around 2008 - 2009. Somehow, me supporting their actions now makes me a partisan hack...more so than people who say they they decide how to vote by looking for the NDP beside a candidate's name.

Well said. As much as I might bang heads with you on various subjects, I definitely consider you probably the most fair-minded, down the middle, non-partisan person in the forum.

Smallc · April 13, 2012

Well said. As much as I might bang heads with you on various subjects, I definitely consider you probably the most fair-minded, down the middle, non-partisan person in the forum.

Aww.......