F-35 Purchase

[waldo]

I don't care if its policy or not

bully for you!

[Signals.Cpl]

bully for you!

Do you work for Fox "News"?

[Argus]

9/11 demonstrated a need for more intelligent, transparent and just foreign affairs policies.

In other words, stop standing up to violent dictators or violent radical religious groups. Stop supporting democratic states like Israel which stand up to them. Sit in a corner. Shut up. Don't protest. And give lots of foreign aid to anyone who wants it. Then we should be okay.

[dre]

So...The Conservatives "didn't tell you" about the costs of the F-35 and you are angry while at the same time the Conservatives "didn't tell you" about the costs of the NSPS yet you don't care.

You can't call them liars for using this method to purchase aircraft when you don't care the method they use to purchase ships. Either all purchases use the same criteria or none of them use that criteria. Insisting that the Conservatives "tell the truth" about this project while ignoring all other project is dishonest and for the opposition to not care about the NSPS which costs 19billion more is hypocritical.

Yeah.... they should disclose both the purchase and operating costs of the ships as well.

As a matter of fact... they should do this if they even buy so much as a ballpoint pen.

[Argus]

$19B more? The $33B is for acquisition only, and doesn't include maintenance.

I'm guessing it also doesn't include forty years of salaries and benefits for the crew, plus the costs of the infrastructure, docks, fuel, etc. for those ships.

[Argus]

Maybe because NSPS went through a fair and open bidding process where we can all open the report and see why each yard was rewarded the project. Remind me more about the bidding process the f35 went through? Show me that report.

The F-35 went through a bidding/evaluation process in the US before we signed onto it. It won that competition.

And let's face reality here. No one has been able to propose a serious alternative.

[waldo]

no - the Canadian public needs to understand how much funding the Canadian military is receiving, whether capital or operational based. As MLW member cybercoma repeatedly states, Treasury Board policy rules dictate delineated costs, capital versus operational, must be reported... this is a most fundamental auditing requirement to help ensure that money earmarked for capital programs is not spent on operations and vice versa.

clearly, overall cost was purposely 'down played' by Harper Conservatives, whether by "hiding" the operational costs, outright, or by skewing them with a ridiculous 20-year life-cycle attachment.

Why pick and choose? Why doesn't the NDP bring forward that the NSPS did not follow the rules? When the 33 billion dollar price tag for CG and RCN vessels doubles at the very least then the contract is going to be eliminated, but then again so are the jobs that so many Canadians will be getting from the project and thus will eliminate the NDP's chance for leading the government. If you are going to use the criteria on the F-35's then make sure you go back and use it on any and every project since the policy came in to effect. I wonder why the NDP is not interested in the NSPS, any Ideas?

any ideas? Ya, you have no argument... you lost the argument... it's Treasury Board policy that aligns with fundamental auditing principle.

[waldo]

I don't care if its policy or not

bully for you!

Do you work for Fox "News"?

mystery speak?

[waldo]

9/11 demonstrated a need for more intelligent, transparent and just foreign affairs policies.

The military response to a criminal act was itself criminal.

Criminal? You mean the shutting down the airspace to prevent further acts on Either Canadian or American targets? Soldiers deployed to protect vital targets like major airports?

duh... not a big picture guy, are you? Something about the Eye-Rac... what could it be... what could it be?

[dre]

In other words, stop standing up to violent dictators or violent radical religious groups. Stop supporting democratic states like Israel which stand up to them. Sit in a corner. Shut up. Don't protest. And give lots of foreign aid to anyone who wants it. Then we should be okay.

Theres about 60 or 70 such dictatorships on the planet, and human rights abuses all around the world. We ignore almost all of them anyways... when it comes to "world policing" we are the ultimate corrupt cop.

And yeah... we should rethink this whole idea of the west funding all this foreign interventionalism with borrowed money. Its not sustainable, its not in our interests, and most of the time its not in the interests of the people we try to help either.

We should also re-evaluate our participation in all these global clubs and associations... UN, NATO, G7, G20, etc. Let forensic accountants study it and report on whether or not it might be in our interest to use the money in a way that provides a more direct ROI... like rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure and building a sustainable and modern economy.

[waldo]

The F-35 went through a bidding/evaluation process in the US before we signed onto it. It won that competition.

And let's face reality here. No one has been able to propose a serious alternative.

overpriced, overdue, over-hyped

[punked]

So, if the process becomes transparent enough for your standards, and it still selects the F-35, you’re not ok with the purchase sans a time machine?

Or let’s say, the NDP wins in 2015 and allows a competition and the F-35 wins, you’d rather a different selection due to partisan optics?

If we decide as a nation that the F35 is the best jet for us I will support it. There however is nothing this government can really do to make me believe they will have an open process. They can change their stripes now they have been nothing but deceitful the whole time.

[punked]

The F-35 went through a bidding/evaluation process in the US before we signed onto it. It won that competition.

And let's face reality here. No one has been able to propose a serious alternative.

What is right for a country like the US is not right for a country such as Canada. If that is your argument we can save ourselves a lot of trouble and fire our government and do whatever the US does.

[DogOnPorch]

If we decide as a nation that the F35 is the best jet for us I will support it. There however is nothing this government can really do to make me believe they will have an open process. They can change their stripes now they have been nothing but deceitful the whole time.

So if 'the Nation' decides against the F-35, what's next? A national referendum re: air superiority fighters? The vast majority or the population thinks pushing the stick forward makes you go up.

[eyeball]

In other words, stop standing up to violent dictators or violent radical religious groups. Stop supporting democratic states like Israel which stand up to them. Sit in a corner. Shut up. Don't protest. And give lots of foreign aid to anyone who wants it. Then we should be okay.

No, I mean stop supporting dictators with military aid.

Israel isn't forcing us to be unjust so I don't know why you've dragged them into it.

[eyeball]

Criminal? You mean the shutting down the airspace to prevent further acts on Either Canadian or American targets? Soldiers deployed to protect vital targets like major airports?

No. I meant invading Afghanistan.

[waldo]

So if 'the Nation' decides against the F-35, what's next? A national referendum re: air superiority fighters? The vast majority or the population thinks pushing the stick forward makes you go up.

a favourite alternate play is to suggest Canada become a leader in transport... someone has to do it. Alternate monies "freed up" could go towards the ice-breakers, the Coast Guard, Search & Rescue, UAV reconnaissance, modernizing the Navy, modernizing the Army, etc. Or do you subscribe to a belief that there is an unlimited military budget? Whatever it takes! Is that it? Whatever it costs... is what it costs? Is that your sound fiscal pronouncement? Cause, like... what about the prisons... there will be no money for prisons!!!

[DogOnPorch]

a favourite alternate play is to suggest Canada become a leader in transport... someone has to do it. Alternate monies "freed up" could go towards the ice-breakers, the Coast Guard, Search & Rescue, UAV reconnaissance, modernizing the Navy, modernizing the Army, etc. Or do you subscribe to a belief that there is an unlimited military budget? Whatever it takes! Is that it? Whatever it costs... is what it costs? Is that your sound fiscal pronouncement? Cause, like... what about the prisons... there will be no money for prisons!!!

I have also stated Canada should perhaps be the transport king of NATO. As well as purchacing a light ground attack aircraft for organic support of OUR troops. But, we still need an air superiority fighter. Otherwise, let's see if the Americans are willing to replace Grant with Trudeau on the $50.

[punked]

So if 'the Nation' decides against the F-35, what's next? A national referendum re: air superiority fighters? The vast majority or the population thinks pushing the stick forward makes you go up.

Doesn't matter this is a democracy again if you want to live in a military dictatorship move to North Korea Comrade.

[waldo]

But, we still need an air superiority fighter.

ya, you've got the Red Menace fever bad, real bad!

[DogOnPorch]

ya, you've got the Red Menace fever bad, real bad!

OK...how do you plan on getting to say...Prince Willian Island in an hour to respond to incident X?

[eyeball]

OK...how do you plan on getting to say...Prince Willian Island in an hour to respond to incident X?

Is that where the Islamo-fascist's forward air base is located? Those sneaky buggers.

[DogOnPorch]

Is that where the Islamo-fascist's forward air base is located? Those sneaky buggers.

No...anything. Your momma on a raft.

[dre]

OK...how do you plan on getting to say...Prince Willian Island in an hour to respond to incident X?

The question is what kind of insurance does that risk justify, and how should that insurance be paid for?

Should we spend 10 billion dollars to be able to get to Prince Willian Island? 20 Billion? 100 Billion? A trillion? Should we borrow the money?

If risk management is not constrained by costs it actually BECOMES a risk itself. Government spending is a far bigger threat to us than any foreign menace you could currently trot out. This kind of thinking has bankrupted empires, and it has the west in a lot of trouble.

[eyeball]

No...anything. Your momma on a raft.

No, she's in Toronto on a pension.