Moonlight Graham Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 Fareed Zakaria wrote this commentary last week, then repeated it about word for word on his GPS show. Watch the short video here, or read the excerpts below from his commentary found at the same link. Zakaria: Israel, don't strike IranIsraeli officials explain that we Americans cannot understand their fears, that Iran is an existential threat to them. But in fact we can understand because we have gone through a very similar experience ourselves. After World War II, as the Soviet Union approached a nuclear capability, the United States was seized by a panic that lasted for years. Everything that Israel says about Iran now, we said about the Soviet Union. We saw it as a radical, revolutionary regime, opposed to every value we held dear, determined to overthrow the governments of the Western world in order to establish global communism. We saw Moscow as irrational, aggressive and utterly unconcerned with human life. After all, Joseph Stalin had just sacrificed a mind-boggling 26 million Soviet lives in his country’s struggle against Nazi Germany. Just as Israel is openly considering preemptive strikes against Iran, many in the West urged such strikes against Moscow in the late 1940s. The calls came not just from hawks but even from lifelong pacifists such as the public intellectual Bertrand Russell. ... In a speech at the Boston Navy Yard in August 1950, Navy Secretary Francis Matthews argued that, in being “an initiator of a war of aggression,” the United States “would become the first aggressors for peace.” In the end, however, the global revolutionaries in Moscow, the mad autocrats in Pyongyang and the terrorist-supporting military in Pakistan have all been deterred by mutual fears of destruction. While the Iranian regime is often called crazy, it has done much less to merit the term than did a regime such as Mao’s China. Over the past decade, there have been thousands of suicide bombings [around the world] by Saudis, Egyptians, Lebanese, Palestinians and Pakistanis, but [there has] not been a single suicide attack by an Iranian. Is the Iranian regime — even if it got one crude device in a few years — likely to launch the first? The efforts to delay and disrupt Iran's nuclear program are working. But even if one day Tehran manages to build a few crude bombs, a policy of robust containment and deterrence is better to contemplate than a [preventative] war. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Moonlight Graham Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Posted February 23, 2012 The experts in the OP of the Iran thread are right. Iran is a rational actor. Sometimes a bit wingy in its speech, but in its actions it is rational, and as stated by US Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, works on a "cost-benefits" approach as any rational actor does. The Iranian regime is not Iraq under Hussein. Iraq invaded Iran and Kuwait and gassed the Kurds. Who has Iran invaded since 1979? Yet here we are again, faced with the same rhetoric before the invasion of Iraq: Iran is developing WMD's/nukes (where's the proof?), and Iran will use them themselves or give them to terrorists. Learn from history or be doomed to repeat it! Afghanistan, then Iraq, now Iran? Plucking them all off in a row on a map, how convenient. Another war ready to go as Afghanistan and Iraq wind down, how convenient. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Learn from history or be doomed to repeat it![/b] Afghanistan, then Iraq, now Iran? Yes, do learn from history. Iraq and Afghanistan were engaged (militarily) long before any WMD charade and pretext for "invasion". Nobody is proposing that Iran be invaded, just bombed the way Canada bombed Iraq, Serbia, and Libya. Edited February 23, 2012 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Bonam Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Afghanistan, then Iraq, now Iran? Plucking them all off in a row on a map, how convenient. Yep, and Syria too, to finish that line on a map off ~ Quote
jbg Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 The experts in the OP of the Iran thread are right. Iran is a rational actor. Sometimes a bit wingy in its speech, but in its actions it is rational, and as stated by US Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, works on a "cost-benefits" approach as any rational actor does. And what if you're wrong? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Guest Derek L Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 And what if you're wrong? Peace in our time? Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) And what if you're wrong? Then Iranians die via MAD. Most evidence points to me being right. What if I'm right? We avoid how many dead people? Edited February 24, 2012 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
jbg Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Then Iranians die via MAD. Most evidence points to me being right. What if I'm right? We avoid how many dead people? I believe you're misreading Iran. The clerics want Israel wiped off the map, and are almost equally dedicated to fighting the West. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
kactus Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 I believe you're misreading Iran. The clerics want Israel wiped off the map, and are almost equally dedicated to fighting the West. Based on what? What is your evidence other than heresay? Infact, what would Iran/ the clerics gain from picking single handedly on fighting the west? Israel government may think so to make a case to justify their attack on Iran... That doesn't mean they are right! Quote
kactus Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Then Iranians die via MAD. Most evidence points to me being right. What if I'm right? We avoid how many dead people? Exactly! Iran has more to lose as we are talking about 80 million lives. Besides, they have already had their fair share of casualties and miseries when dragged into an eight year bloody war with Iraq and literally cost lives of millions of innocent people...But I guess some are oblivious to this fact and just turn a blind eye when it's convenient... Edited February 24, 2012 by kactus Quote
jbg Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Based on what? What is your evidence other than heresay? Infact, what would Iran/ the clerics gain from picking single handedly on fighting the west? Israel government may think so to make a case to justify their attack on Iran... That doesn't mean they are right! Certain lack of grammar and spelling? And why do you insist on denying the obvious? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
BubberMiley Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Certain lack of grammar and spelling? And why do you insist on denying the obvious? So when asked to provide evidence, you still resort to the grammar and spelling critique? I thought you quit that after you spelled "wear" as "where," and made that painful attempt to redefine the semi-colon. Quote "I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
GostHacked Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Certain lack of grammar and spelling? And why do you insist on denying the obvious? If Iran attacks, consider it blowback. Several national guard sites blown to bits. Scientists getting assassinated. Spy drones over the country. You have no clue that a war is already going on. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 I believe you're misreading Iran. The clerics want Israel wiped off the map, and are almost equally dedicated to fighting the West. Right...this is their stated rhetoric. Canada and the "west" have bombed (and invaded) other nations for far less. What's so special about Iran? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 What's so special about Iran? It was like the apple that Eve offered Adam, except it was Britain that tempted America. Iran was a turning point then and now it's coming full circle. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 It was like the apple that Eve offered Adam, except it was Britain that tempted America. Only one of many, and America rejected the Suez Canal "apple". Iran was a turning point then and now it's coming full circle. Good, as there is no reason to become sentimental now. Nothing special about Iran. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 The experts in the OP of the Iran thread are right. Iran is a rational actor. Yup, thats more or less correct if you look at Irans history. The folks in charge are pretty carefull and Iran behaves basically the way you would expect a middle tier player to behave. But what nation states do is try to condition their people to think the enemy is something beyond human... malicious evil demons bent on torturing little babies etc. The hawks on their side have a lot of THEM thinking that way about us, and vice versa (as you can see reading posts from folks here). Beyond the propoganda, what do you really have? A country that has for the most part been the TARGET of aggression, and fought brutal defensive wars against a neighbor that wanted to conquer it. Some typical support for proxies in countries where lots of Shia live, etc. But again, this isnt about people being afraid that Iran, after taking 30 years and investing billions of dollars to build a nuclear program is suddenly going to up and commit suicide on behalf of the entire persian race. This is about the balance of power. If there was an anti-western nuclear power in the region it would take all the fun out middle eastern interventionalism, and possibly put an end to a century of western powers and others casually running rough-shod over the region unopposed, picking governments, invading countries at will, etc. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 ... This is about the balance of power. If there was an anti-western nuclear power in the region it would take all the fun out middle eastern interventionalism, and possibly put an end to a century of western powers and others casually running rough-shod over the region unopposed, picking governments, invading countries at will, etc. Yep, and there is no reason to give "rational actor" Iran a pass on this kind of fun. It's "spring cleaning" time in the Mideast, just like last year. Syria and Iran are in the wash cycle. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Yep, and there is no reason to give "rational actor" Iran a pass on this kind of fun. It's "spring cleaning" time in the Mideast, just like last year. Syria and Iran are in the wash cycle. So far spring cleaning has basically just meant replacing strong-men with theocrats, and the islamization of more middle eastern states. If you call that cleaning, then Irans pretty clean already. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 Iranian Apologist Says: But what nation states do is try to condition their people to think the enemy is something beyond human... malicious evil demons bent on torturing little babies etc. They do torture and kill. Why do you try to make it seem otherwise? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 So far spring cleaning has basically just meant replacing strong-men with theocrats, and the islamization of more middle eastern states. If you call that cleaning, then Irans pretty clean already. You gotta problem with Islam? Shame..... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 It's the Religion of Peace. Ask the troopers over @ Bagram. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 It's the Religion of Peace. Ask the troopers over @ Bagram. I certainly hope you're not trying to claim over 1 bilion people are essentially raving bloodthirsty lunatics,are you?? I mean,there is no doubt that radicalized versions of Islam (Islamofascism IS the correct term when one is dealing with these people)are extremely dangerous,and the Iranian regime does fit the bill... But I'm not convinced every single Muslim is out to "kill the infidel" just because the most vocal and violent within Islamic society wants to do that... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
dre Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) It's the Religion of Peace. Ask the troopers over @ Bagram. Oh you mean the prodominantly christian army sent to invade the middle east by a born again christian that says he heard god tell him to do it? Edited February 24, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted February 24, 2012 Report Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I certainly hope you're not trying to claim over 1 bilion people are essentially raving bloodthirsty lunatics,are you?? I mean,there is no doubt that radicalized versions of Islam (Islamofascism IS the correct term when one is dealing with these people)are extremely dangerous,and the Iranian regime does fit the bill... But I'm not convinced every single Muslim is out to "kill the infidel" just because the most vocal and violent within Islamic society wants to do that... Islamofascism IS the correct term when one is dealing with these people Yup, provided of course youre prepared to completely ignore all historical definitions of the word "fascism". , and adopt a simplistic slogan that is essentially the intellectual equivalent of them calling us the "The Great Satan". Edited February 24, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
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