Guest Peeves Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/02/jonathan-kay-fixing-afghanistan-was-a-noble-project-that-became-a-noble-failure/ A wretched place that we should leave to Pakistan, as unworthy of our efforts, deaths or expense. The West did not fail Afghanistan. Afghanistan failed itself. The country is an obscure, impoverished landlocked backwater with a population about equal to Canada’s. Yet the world has sent it well over $50-billion in aid over the last decade — an amount equal to the total annual aid flow to all of Africa. Much of this money no doubt went to paying salaries for Western consultants, posh Land Rovers, and well-staffed NGO compounds. Yet Afghans themselves fell into the lure of corruption en masse. (Transparency International lists Afghanistan as the fourth most corrupt place on Earth.) This problem is even more important than drugs, Islamic radicalism, terrorism and cynical Pakistani meddling, because it seems to be the single biggest factor pushing ordinary Afghans into the Taliban’s arms. Redeeming qualities are few in a westerners eyes. These Taliban Islamists throw acid in the faces of females that want an education. The country is made of of tribes and those with customs that most civilized countries would view with revulsion, such as the role of women and the view of others human rights and religions. The problem isn’t the amount of soldiers or resources we are dedicating to Afghanistan, he told me — it is that ordinary Afghan villagers subscribe to local codes of politics and morality that are entirely alien to Western ways. Gender equality, religious pluralism, due process — all of these things are meaningless gibberish to a society made up largely of illiterate goatherds and farmers, who view women and children as property, and non-Muslims as aliens and infidels. In their world, the real business of public life begins and ends at the local mosque, shura and village council. As sure as their history proves, there can be no enlightenment for what amounts too a country of near troglodytic peoples that are fixed in a Luddite mentality. When 'we' leave things will revert to the prior status quo and all the deaths, all the monies and all the effort will likely have changed their country (THEIR COUNTRY, not a whit. How sad. The life their for women and the uncorrupted is dismal to say the least. Any optimism? Edited February 3, 2012 by Peeves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Not sure how exactly they "failed themselves" after being invaded by two superpowers in 20 years. The last paragraph is ok, though. Hopefully, they will benefit from being ignored. More likely is that the west will engage in the usual remote control strategy to keep it from being too much of a threat, until the whole thing boils over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Is Afghanistan worth it? No, which I could have told you back in Sept/Oct of 2001. Let me guess, that's when you were full of optimism for Afghanistan and snarled through clenched teeth at folks like me. Declaring war on Iran will be an utter total and above all vain waste of time money and lives too, for the same reason. What a bunch of pathetic losers we are for wading into these quagmires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Redeeming qualities are few in a westerners eyes. These Taliban Islamists throw acid in the faces of females that want an education. The country is made of of tribes and those with customs that most civilized countries would view with revulsion, such as the role of women and the view of others human rights and religions. Oh, how noble....if only these wretched Afghans had some oil or gold to exploit, making it all "worth it". Was Europe worth it? How about Korea? Or maybe Kuwait? Well one thing we all know for sure is that Haiti was worth it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) No, which I could have told you back in Sept/Oct of 2001. Let me guess, that's when you were full of optimism for Afghanistan and snarled through clenched teeth at folks like me. Declaring war on Iran will be an utter total and above all vain waste of time money and lives too, for the same reason. What a bunch of pathetic losers we are for wading into these quagmires. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but it's argumentative to assume such simply to provoke. Edited February 4, 2012 by Peeves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peeves Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Oh, how noble....if only these wretched Afghans had some oil or gold to exploit, making it all "worth it". Was Europe worth it? How about Korea? Or maybe Kuwait? Well one thing we all know for sure is that Haiti was worth it! Afghans have opium and little else beyond a tenacity in war. Otherwise they seem corrupt, misogynistic, bereft of human rights or freedoms and consider life of very little worth. Of course that's my opinion based on observations since 2001. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 The West has been stupid not to see the difference in fighting the Taliban and fighting al-Qaeda. We went there to get rid of West-killing terrorists, and we've been mostly stuck fighting the people who harboured them but haven't attacked us beyond their borders (to my knowledge). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 We left to early, the longer we stayed and the longer thier young had to get educated and learn what else there is in life except just misery,we would have had a chance but leaving early will end up in failure. Maybe it is time to go back to the victorian butcher and bolt way of doing things. When some one pisses you off you go in , lay one hell of a beating on them and the go home, but leave a note saying you annoy us again we will be back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 We left to early, the longer we stayed and the longer thier young had to get educated and learn what else there is in life except just misery,we would have had a chance but leaving early will end up in failure. Maybe it is time to go back to the victorian butcher and bolt way of doing things. When some one pisses you off you go in , lay one hell of a beating on them and the go home, but leave a note saying you annoy us again we will be back. Maybe we oughtta take all the money we waste in places like Afghanistan and do something usefull with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Maybe we oughtta take all the money we waste in places like Afghanistan and do something usefull with it. Like build a bigger nanny state then we have now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotspinTV Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 No, which I could have told you back in Sept/Oct of 2001. Let me guess, that's when you were full of optimism for Afghanistan and snarled through clenched teeth at folks like me. Declaring war on Iran will be an utter total and above all vain waste of time money and lives too, for the same reason. What a bunch of pathetic losers we are for wading into these quagmires. And if we don't wade into this quagmire will the U.S. start claiming our beef is infected with mad cow disease or begin placing tariffs on softwood lumber? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but it's augmentative to assume such simply to provoke. In the face of how annoying it is seeing people like yourself finally coming to the same conclusion after crapping on it for 11 years and counting? Go rub your own nose in it if you don't like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 I believe the Soviets,in hind-sight were on the right track by supporting an athiest/religion seperate from state style Afgan government. Unrest in Afganistan grew with US involvement! Democracy there actually fuels more corruption,opium/herion has become an even larger crop/produce and human rights are questionably improved/deteriated. I do not believe it is possible that the people who fueled the problems can now somehow solve them! Canadas help will therefore be futile and waste as long as the US is there dictating direction. God help them WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 I believe the Soviets,in hind-sight were on the right track by supporting an athiest/religion seperate from state style Afgan government. Notice too how China seems to be getting it right when it comes to competing with the world economically. Meanwhile just about everything the capitalistic so-called democratic west touches turns to shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-TSS- Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 History is repeating itself again; Whoever tries to conquer Afghanistan finds himself in an endless quarry of endless troubles. This is what many of my countrymen just don't realize. We are going to join NATO because we are afraid of the Russians but when we eventually join NATO instead of having just fears of war we are going to have wars in real places over issues which have nothing to do with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 And if we don't wade into this quagmire will the U.S. start claiming our beef is infected with mad cow disease or begin placing tariffs on softwood lumber? How much is Canadian "honor" worth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 I believe the Soviets,in hind-sight were on the right track by supporting an athiest/religion seperate from state style Afgan government. The "Soviets" no longer exist. Unrest in Afganistan grew with US involvement! So it was a paradise before that? Canadas help will therefore be futile and waste as long as the US is there dictating direction. Really? Initially, Canada couldn't even get there without US "help". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 So it was a paradise before that? I do not believe paradise can actually exist.Nor should it! But I do believe that Afganistan would have bein better off had the Soviet backed government there did succeed and without American support for the Taliban/Alkida! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 I do not believe paradise can actually exist.Nor should it! So Afghanistan was an acceptable level of misery? But I do believe that Afganistan would have bein better off had the Soviet backed government there did succeed and without American support for the Taliban/Alkida! But it didn't "succeed", and their Soviet sponsors eventually collapsed as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Oh, how noble....if only these wretched Afghans had some oil or gold to exploit, making it all "worth it". Was Europe worth it? How about Korea? Or maybe Kuwait? Well one thing we all know for sure is that Haiti was worth it! Hey BC, with the name tag of Cheney, I think you would know more about your former VP. http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1208-04.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 So Afghanistan was an acceptable level of misery? But it didn't "succeed", and their Soviet sponsors eventually collapsed as well. Oh man here we go again!?!? Why do you take this path buddy? Why the week arguments that bairley make any sence? Or better yet-why do I bother to answer/reply to BC? Its my fault for thinking we can have an actual productive debate! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Oh man here we go again!?!? Why do you take this path buddy? Because it is the logical path to take. The Soviet Union exists no more. Why the week arguments that bairley make any sence? Why the poor spelling? Or better yet-why do I bother to answer/reply to BC? Because you are like a moth to a flame. Its my fault for thinking we can have an actual productive debate! How productive does it have to be? The reality of Afghanistan revisited ten years after the fact with regret and hindsight is for history books. Canadian Forces didn't/don't have that luxury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hey BC, with the name tag of Cheney, I think you would know more about your former VP. http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1208-04.htm Yes, it is easier for Cheney to build pipelines in Afghanistan than for Canada to do it in the United States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Like build a bigger nanny state then we have now? I was thinking more along the lines of fixing up our aging infrastructure, or paying off some of our debt. You seem to suggesting we not only grow the nanny state, but it should act as a Nanny for other countries as well. Sounds like youre all for nation building unless someone suggests we build our OWN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I wouldn’t call it a total waste but for a few small items which I’ll highlight later. The principle in of itself of the initial phases of the war were good in theory, it’s the following nine years that were a wasted effort. To explain further, the idea to “punish” the Taliban Government and cut off/destroy any terrorist “safe havens” was sound, both in theory and execution…….This is made evident by the opening phases of the war, conducted by namely special forces, intelligence operatives and airpower. Most of the initial goals were achieved for very little loss of (Allied/NATO) lives. Where things started to derail was the collision of both the reconstruction & and “doing things lightly” (Cheap) mantras……..To add the National caveats placed upon some nations forces for purely political reasons hindered this already failed strategy. What should have been done, was a quick, surgical campaign of total war, following along the lines of the Powell Doctrine. The only positives that I can find are these: 1. NATO has been truly defined by it’s divisions of “Can do” and “can’t do” nations, in other words, we know where we stand . As I said earlier in other threads, I think we should leave NATO yesterday. 2. We now have a cadre of troops that are battle tested, and will be able to convey their experiences to the next generation for the next ~30 years……We know what works and what doesn’t. 3. No political party will expend so much political capital on such a fruitless effort for generations. To contrast, war for the foreseeable future will mimic Libya, not Afghanistan or Iraq…….And this will be the case with any future conflict with Iran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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