Can "a Jewish state" be a democracy?

[jacee]

In May on Nakba, unarmed Arabs began walking back to their homelands in Israel. 24 were killed before the Israeli soldiers stood down.

As a youth I celebrated the establishment of a safe home for the Jews so traumatized by the holocaust. As an elder now observing the indefensible attack on Gaza and IDF shooting of unarmed protesters, I wonder whether Canada has encouraged the entrenchodou of a monster state.

Can democracy exist where there is official religious discrimination?

As a "friend of (the Jewish state of ) Israel", is Canada's government violating the democratic principles of our own constitution?

In my opinion, yes. In fact it's surprising that HarperCanada would support religious discrimination against Christians in Israel.

How can Canada support a truly democratic Israel with nondiscrimination against (Muslim, Christian, agnostic, etc.) people?

The questions become urgent now because I believe that the endless United Nations discussions and negotiations will soon become totally irrelevant. As unarmed Palestinian men and women enmasse simply walk back to their homelands, another violent reaction by the IDF will clearly put Israel in the same category as Ghadafi and other brutal and repressive regimes.

So . . . should Canada not be preparing to address the issue of religious freedom in Israel instead of propping up an unsustainable state defined by one religion to the exclusion of all others?

These are just my thoughts and questions based on my imperfect knowledge.

What are yours?

[scribblet]

Do you have a link to support your post re: Nakba ?

You must be trolling as we know that Israel is allready a democracy which has Arabs as members of the Knesset, so ....

[Shady]

Exactly. Israeli Arabs have more rights and freedoms than they'd have in any Arab country.

[bud]

Exactly. Israeli Arabs have more rights and freedoms than they'd have in any Arab country.

Jewish Israelis have more rights and freedoms than Arab Israelis.

[jacee]

Do you have a link to support your post re: Nakba ?

You must be trolling as we know that Israel is allready a democracy which has Arabs as members of the Knesset, so ....

I'm not trolling. The thread topic question reflects my own musings, but I can change it if you wish.

If Israel is not a single religion country, then why is such importance attached to it being "a Jewish state"? Is that not the reason Arabs were removed in the first place, and the borders still closed to their return?

Unfortunately I can't post links with this device but there are many articles about the Nakba events though it's hard to find the exact death toll. It appears that the next marches on the fences will be later this week.

I'm trying to understand what's happening and Canada's position, as it seems to me that the whole struggle is shifting from armies to unarmed protesters, as elsewhere in the Middle East. However the 'official' dialogue sounds like the 'same-old' variety and a bit out of touch.

This year's events in the Middle East fascinate me, to see people taking their future into their own hands through protest instead of war (mostly). The situation in Israel is different - a (may I say limited?) democracy being challenged from outside by people who want in - but the power of peaceful protest may still be quite significant.

[Bob]

Jewish Israelis have more rights and freedoms than Arab Israelis.

Nope. More obligations? Yes. More right and freedoms? No.

We've gone over this...

[Bob]

In May on Nakba, unarmed Arabs began walking back to their homelands in Israel. 24 were killed before the Israeli soldiers stood down.

As a youth I celebrated the establishment of a safe home for the Jews so traumatized by the holocaust. As an elder now observing the indefensible attack on Gaza and IDF shooting of unarmed protesters, I wonder whether Canada has encouraged the entrenchodou of a monster state.

Can democracy exist where there is official religious discrimination?

As a "friend of (the Jewish state of ) Israel", is Canada's government violating the democratic principles of our own constitution?

In my opinion, yes. In fact it's surprising that HarperCanada would support religious discrimination against Christians in Israel.

How can Canada support a truly democratic Israel with nondiscrimination against (Muslim, Christian, agnostic, etc.) people?

The questions become urgent now because I believe that the endless United Nations discussions and negotiations will soon become totally irrelevant. As unarmed Palestinian men and women enmasse simply walk back to their homelands, another violent reaction by the IDF will clearly put Israel in the same category as Ghadafi and other brutal and repressive regimes.

So . . . should Canada not be preparing to address the issue of religious freedom in Israel instead of propping up an unsustainable state defined by one religion to the exclusion of all others?

These are just my thoughts and questions based on my imperfect knowledge.

What are yours?

I pretty much stopped reading your post after the very first sentence. This is such obvious political drivel based on false innuendos and suppositions. If you really want to learn something about Israel, stick around.

As far as the opening question - can a Jewish state be democratic? This is indeed a challenging question. Aside from the philosophy of it, we can examine how Zionism and Israel has dealt with this issue even in the decades before Israel's reestablishment in May of 1948.

[Remiel]

Depends on what you mean by Jewish, anyway. As far as I know, most of the founders (like Ben-Gurion) and theorists (like Herzl) wanted a secular Jewish state; a state for people who were ethnically Jewish. What it has transformed into however is both the full meaning of Jewish as an ethnic and religious identity. So, arguable, "a" Jewish state could easily be a democracy but "the" Jewish state has already walked down the religious path and it may be difficult to reverse it. Israel as it is is democratic but it is not a true democracy.

Now, there are probably many discussions of what would have to be done for Israel to be a true democracy. It is obviously not the case that religious Jewishness has to be disentangled from the state entirely. But for starters, I think it is toxic to the health of the state that religious authorities have so much power over who is eligible for citizenship in the Jewish state under the Law of Return. It is ridiculous. I mean, given the belief that Jews are despised, how would it mak elogical sesne that any individual would pretend to be Jewish in their country of origin?

Edited June 1, 2011 by Remiel

[Bob]

Depends on what you mean by Jewish, anyway. As far as I know, most of the founders (like Ben-Gurion) and theorists (like Herzl) wanted a secular Jewish state; a state for people who were ethnically Jewish. What it has transformed into however is both the full meaning of Jewish as an ethnic and religious identity. So, arguable, "a" Jewish state could easily be a democracy but "the" Jewish state has already walked down the religious path and it may be difficult to reverse it. Israel as it is is democratic but it is not a true democracy.

Various components of the early Zionist movement gave serious thought to how to deal with the Arab population in the decades leading up to May of 1948. And of course, a lot of the early Zionist movement was composed of idealistic and ideological socialists who entertained ideas of a binational state. This is all part of addressing the question - how do we balance the need for a Jewish state with democracy? Because of course, if Israel was indeed a Jewish state, wouldn't that mean revoking the political freedoms of the non-Jewish population? Clearly, Israel is somewhere in middle on this issue - trying to balance the need for the Jewish character of the state on the one hand with democratic values on the other. It's part of the balancing act that makes this country such a messed up case study. If Israel really went puritanical and prioritized the Jewish component of its declaration of independence, in the Kahanist sense, non-Jews would not be permitted to participate in this democracy.

I'd say you're quite off the mark in describing Israel as a religiously Jewish state. There's a joke in Israel, and it says that you're only Jewish twice in this country - when you get married (because marriage is administered by the various religious authorities in Israel) and when you die (because cemeteries are often administered by orthodox religious organizations). So in Israel, a Jew and a non-Jew will find it impossible to marry. What this couple could do, however, is go outside of Israel, get married, and then Israel will recognize the marriage. Since Israel recognizes foreign marriages (including gay marriages), this is the loophole around the religiously administered service/institution of marriage. With respect to funerals, many Jews with questionable Jewish origin will have difficulty (and by that I mean it's almost impossible) being buried in a conventional Jewish cemetery. This is of course because cemeteries, like marriages, are generally administered by religious authorities. Unlike marriage, however, there are secular cemeteries and funeral options in this country. It's messed up, but it's part of what makes this country so crazy. Aside from that, you won't find much religious imposition on your day-to-day life. For some reason all men (Jewish and non-Jewish alike!) are expected to wear a kippah when near the Western Wall plaza (which makes no sense whatsoever from a religious perspective). Women and men are separated at the Western Wall plaza, as well. This is "law", as this area is administered by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. It's quite a small intrusion, but it's too bad that women can't go into this alcove inside the wall with all the Torah scrolls and other cool stuff. Ah well.

You're right, though, Israel isn't really a "true" democracy, in the sense that Israel wouldn't allow itself to lose its Jewish status as a function of democracy. I gave this hypothetical awhile back, but in the event that the Jewish proportion of the population began to diminish, there'd have to be some intervention by the state at the expense of democracy. It's not happening and is unlikely to happen, as Jewish birthrates are high enough, but if it did begin to happen.... democracy would have to be compromised, at least somewhat, in order to preserve the Jewish character of the country.

Basically, "Jewish and democratic" statehood essentially puts Israel into a potentially schizophrenic position.

Now, there are probably many discussions of what would have to be done for Israel to be a true democracy. It is obviously not the case that religious Jewishness has to be disentangled from the state entirely. But for starters, I think it is toxic to the health of the state that religious authorities have so much power over who is eligible for citizenship in the Jewish state under the Law of Return. It is ridiculous. I mean, given the belief that Jews are despised, how would it mak elogical sesne that any individual would pretend to be Jewish in their country of origin?

Religious authorities are not entrusted with determining who is eligible to make Aliyah under the Law of Return. The Law of Return mimics the Nazi Nuremberg laws, so if it you are "Jewish enough" to have been sent to a camp during the Holocaust, you're "Jewish enough" to be "saved" by Israel. If the religious authorities were to determine the Law of Return, it'd mirror Halaha (Jewish orthodox law).

And yes, Israel has absorbed many "fake Jews" who lied about their Jewish identity in order to come here for one reason or another. Many of them came from Russian and former Soviet republics, as well as a small amount of Ethiopia. Of course they've come from everywhere, but I think these are the two biggest suppliers of "fake Jews".

[Remiel]

I'd say you're quite off the mark in describing Israel as a religiously Jewish state. There's a joke in Israel, and it says that you're only Jewish twice in this country - when you get married (because marriage is administered by the various religious authorities in Israel) and when you die (because cemeteries are often administered by orthodox religious organizations).

I do not I was off the mark so much as I meant it weakly, not strongly. The marriage issue is what I think I specifically had in mind when I first wrote. That the state has not sanctioned secular marriage when this has been a known problem for years suggests at least a minimal religious influence.

Religious authorities are not entrusted with determining who is eligible to make Aliyah under the Law of Return. The Law of Return mimics the Nazi Nuremberg laws, so if it you are "Jewish enough" to have been sent to a camp during the Holocaust, you're "Jewish enough" to be "saved" by Israel. If the religious authorities were to determine the Law of Return, it'd mirror Halaha (Jewish orthodox law).

Alright, my mistake then.

And yes, Israel has absorbed many "fake Jews" who lied about their Jewish identity in order to come here for one reason or another. Many of them came from Russian and former Soviet republics, as well as a small amount of Ethiopia. Of course they've come from everywhere, but I think these are the two biggest suppliers of "fake Jews".

Okay, I knew about the Russian issue, but I was not familiar enough to understand whether the Russian "Jews" were really fake Jews or whether there was some underlying prejudice.

On the issue of Ethiopians, when you say they are fake Jews, do you mean all Ethiopian "Jews" are fake, or that small contingent of them were? I had thought it was, for instance, genetically shown that the Ethiopian "Jewish" community was related to the other Jewish groups.

[Bob]

On the issue of Ethiopians, when you say they are fake Jews, do you mean all Ethiopian "Jews" are fake, or that small contingent of them were? I had thought it was, for instance, genetically shown that the Ethiopian "Jewish" community was related to the other Jewish groups.

A very small contingent of them. Most Ethiopian Jewry have solid Jewish credentials - they practise and/or know enough to be considered Jewish by anybody who I would consider reasonable. They also have some crazy stories about the earliy immigrant. Thousands of them WALKED to Israel, and many of them have horrible tragedies to share associated with that (dying on the way, for example). There is also another contingent of them that had converted to Christianity. I think it's paradoxical to import "Jews" who practise another religion into Israel. But of course, legally, under the Law of Return, they still qualify to make Aliyah to Israel. Israel has had this problem with various Aliyot, including Russian "Jews" who openly practised Christianity, but of course qualified to make Aliyah to Israel under the Law of Return.

Just another crazy part of this country.

EDIT - Oh, by the way, I also think a Muslim cannot marry a Christian. I don't know the marriage rules of other religions, but since there is no secular marriage in Israel, all recognized religious denominations in Israel are charged with administering their own marriages, in accordance with their religious values. So I think we have one Islamic administration, and quite a few Christian denominations (Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc...).

Edited June 1, 2011 by Bob

[bud]

Nope. More obligations? Yes. More right and freedoms? No.

We've gone over this...

we've been over this and came to the conclusion that jews in israel have more rights, or arab israelis have less rights.

for example:

- land laws are discriminatory against the arab israelis

- an arab israeli is discriminated against if he/she wants to sponsor his/her spouse, whereas a jewish israeli will have no problems

- arab israelis are not allowed to join the israeli military

- the distribution of funds to schools are discriminatory when it comes to allocation of funds to jewish and arab schools

there are more, but since you can't deny of the above, then my point is made.

[DogOnPorch]

arab israelis are not allowed to join the israeli military

Pure BS.

[bud]

Pure BS.

my mistake. it is not mandatory.

what about the other points?

- land laws are discriminatory against the arab israelis

- an arab israeli is discriminated against if he/she wants to sponsor his/her spouse, whereas a jewish israeli will have no problems

- the distribution of funds to schools are discriminatory when it comes to allocation of funds to jewish and arab schools

care to discuss the points above which go against democracy?

[bush_cheney2004]

...- the distribution of funds to schools are discriminatory when it comes to allocation of funds to jewish and arab schools

care to discuss the points above which go against democracy?

Gee...that sounds just like Canada's constitution vis-a-vis Catholics and Protestants in some provinces....if it's good enough for Canada then it is good enough for Israel!

Two down....two to go.

[bud]

Gee...that sounds just like Canada's constitution vis-a-vis Catholics and Protestants in some provinces....if it's good enough for Canada then it is good enough for Israel!

Two down....two to go.

not so fast, skippy.

explain what the constitution is and how that relates to the allocation of funds to schools and how it's anything like israel's policy.

[bush_cheney2004]

not so fast, skippy.

explain what the constitution is and how that relates to the allocation of funds to schools and how it's anything like israel's policy.

No...if you don't understand the preferences provided in the past/present, particularly in Ontariariario, then you don't want a smart ass American to explain it to you. The point still stands.

[Bob]

"Land laws". Why don't you elaborate on that? Run off to Wikipedia and tell us all how "land laws" discriminate against Arabs.

As far as funding for Arab sector social services, you may have a point - but at the end of the day Arabs contribute less to the Israeli economy, per capita, than their Jewish counterparts. Without having looked at all the numbers, I'd assume it's proportional. Does that make it fair? It depends on who you ask. For example, certain Arab neighbourhoods in "East Jerusalem" are "underfunded". By that I mean the schools are less impressive, some areas don't have decent waste removal services (sometimes because they are illegally constructed areas not on the official map), the roads are in disrepair, etc.

But then, there are quite a few areas around the country that can make this claim, and most of these areas aren't Arab areas.

As far as spousal sponsorship, it's quite complicated, and I certainly don't believe you're informed enough to explain the full context to members on this forum. Israel allows for family reunifications under different circumstances. Stop pretending to understand Israel.

[bloodyminded]

Various components of the early Zionist movement gave serious thought to how to deal with the Arab population in the decades leading up to May of 1948. And of course, a lot of the early Zionist movement was composed of idealistic and ideological socialists who entertained ideas of a binational state. This is all part of addressing the question - how do we balance the need for a Jewish state with democracy? Because of course, if Israel was indeed a Jewish state, wouldn't that mean revoking the political freedoms of the non-Jewish population? Clearly, Israel is somewhere in middle on this issue - trying to balance the need for the Jewish character of the state on the one hand with democratic values on the other. It's part of the balancing act that makes this country such a messed up case study. If Israel really went puritanical and prioritized the Jewish component of its declaration of independence, in the Kahanist sense, non-Jews would not be permitted to participate in this democracy.

I'd say you're quite off the mark in describing Israel as a religiously Jewish state. There's a joke in Israel, and it says that you're only Jewish twice in this country - when you get married (because marriage is administered by the various religious authorities in Israel) and when you die (because cemeteries are often administered by orthodox religious organizations). So in Israel, a Jew and a non-Jew will find it impossible to marry. What this couple could do, however, is go outside of Israel, get married, and then Israel will recognize the marriage. Since Israel recognizes foreign marriages (including gay marriages), this is the loophole around the religiously administered service/institution of marriage. With respect to funerals, many Jews with questionable Jewish origin will have difficulty (and by that I mean it's almost impossible) being buried in a conventional Jewish cemetery. This is of course because cemeteries, like marriages, are generally administered by religious authorities. Unlike marriage, however, there are secular cemeteries and funeral options in this country. It's messed up, but it's part of what makes this country so crazy. Aside from that, you won't find much religious imposition on your day-to-day life. For some reason all men (Jewish and non-Jewish alike!) are expected to wear a kippah when near the Western Wall plaza (which makes no sense whatsoever from a religious perspective). Women and men are separated at the Western Wall plaza, as well. This is "law", as this area is administered by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. It's quite a small intrusion, but it's too bad that women can't go into this alcove inside the wall with all the Torah scrolls and other cool stuff. Ah well.

You're right, though, Israel isn't really a "true" democracy, in the sense that Israel wouldn't allow itself to lose its Jewish status as a function of democracy. I gave this hypothetical awhile back, but in the event that the Jewish proportion of the population began to diminish, there'd have to be some intervention by the state at the expense of democracy. It's not happening and is unlikely to happen, as Jewish birthrates are high enough, but if it did begin to happen.... democracy would have to be compromised, at least somewhat, in order to preserve the Jewish character of the country.

Basically, "Jewish and democratic" statehood essentially puts Israel into a potentially schizophrenic position.

Religious authorities are not entrusted with determining who is eligible to make Aliyah under the Law of Return. The Law of Return mimics the Nazi Nuremberg laws, so if it you are "Jewish enough" to have been sent to a camp during the Holocaust, you're "Jewish enough" to be "saved" by Israel. If the religious authorities were to determine the Law of Return, it'd mirror Halaha (Jewish orthodox law).

Very interesting, and informative. I didn't know any of this.

[jacee]

What a lot of good information. Thanks to all responders for addressing the topic question so well. I guess I'm not off base wondering about 'democracy' in a one culture (?) state as clearly that is a longstanding discussion.

I've been doing more reading about this week's upcoming 'Naksa' protests. It appears there is concern among some moderate Israelis that unarmed Palestinian men women children and youth (led by youth, and yes there were children) breach the fences and simply walk back to their historic homeland, the IDF will be beaten. Apparently they are considering using only rubber bullets this time and they are worried about the land mines that are near the fences.

In my opinion this is already a victory for Palestinians with Israel realizing that they can't just shoot to kill unarmed families. It's possible the face of Israel is about to change drastically, and how will they cope?

[bush_cheney2004]

....In my opinion this is already a victory for Palestinians with Israel realizing that they can't just shoot to kill unarmed families. It's possible the face of Israel is about to change drastically, and how will they cope?

The same way that Canadian provinces would/have coped if "aboriginals" to do the same thing for "historic homelands".

[bud]

No...if you don't understand the preferences provided in the past/present, particularly in Ontariariario, then you don't want a smart ass American to explain it to you. The point still stands.

you have a history of making nonsensical comparisons to somehow silence criticism of israel and the u.s. so the onus is on you to back up whatever claim you try to make.

[bud]

"Land laws". Why don't you elaborate on that? Run off to Wikipedia and tell us all how "land laws" discriminate against Arabs.

you already know about the land laws and how they are discriminatory. there is no need to go into wikipedia or any other site to prove this.

what is important here is the meaning of discrimination:

treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit

is there really a point in debating the issues since we both agree and as you have already mentioned:

You're right, though, Israel isn't really a "true" democracy, in the sense that Israel wouldn't allow itself to lose its Jewish status as a function of democracy.

and

Basically, "Jewish and democratic" statehood essentially puts Israel into a potentially schizophrenic position.

you're a bit like lieberman in which you are open and honest about your support for a racist and discriminatory system in israel. whereas some others like jbg and dop are more like bibi and are not open and honest about what they really support.

[bush_cheney2004]

you have a history of making nonsensical comparisons to somehow silence criticism of israel and the u.s. so the onus is on you to back up whatever claim you try to make.

I do not want to silence your criticism...I only wish to mock it with comparisons to your own nation. That this makes you uncomfortable and look silly at the same time is an extra bonus.

Please do not feel singled out...it's not all about you.

My "claim" wrt the Constitution Act is a matter of public record...in Canada.

[jbg]

Jewish Israelis have more rights and freedoms than Arab Israelis.

Nope. More obligations? Yes. More right and freedoms? No.

We've gone over this...

And if somehow Arabs gained control by means of a "one-state" solution, the result would be "one man, one vote, one time". There is utterly no evidence that the result would be any different than currently obtains in Gaza.