Can "a Jewish state" be a democracy?

[eCitizen]

As far as the Geneva Conventions are concerned, the Fourth Geneva Conventions are the part that address "right of return", and were written in 1949 for the specific purpose of undermining Israel.

So why did Israel sign them?

[bud]

As far as the Geneva Conventions are concerned, the Fourth Geneva Conventions are the part that address "right of return", and were written in 1949 for the specific purpose of undermining Israel. They were written in the aftermath of Israel's War of Independence for transparent political purposes (to "repatriate" the Arabs and destroy the Jewish demographics of the nascent state of Israel).

it's all a conspiracy and everyone is out to get the jews. because 'the right of return' is not about doing the right thing and allowing the people who were forced out by the violence to go back to their land and homes.

[eCitizen]

Then why weren't the surviving Jews cheerfully restored to their property post-VE Day in Europe.

Oh but they have been. There have been a number of legal cases in which Jews who were illegally dispossessed of their property were given restitution. And if there are any who have not, then I absolutely agree that they should pursue those cases against the governments who are responsible.

[eCitizen]

it's all a conspiracy and everyone is out to get the jews. because 'the right of return' is not about doing the right thing and allowing the people who were forced out by the violence to go back to their land and homes.

"Interests: Exposing liars".

[M.Dancer]

- arab israelis are not allowed to join the israeli military

there are more, but since you can't deny of the above, then my point is made.

Nonsense...and hogwash. Arabs have been with the IDF from day one.

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/Up_Close/10/07/2601.htm

A long-standing policy dating to Israel's early years extends an exemption to all other Israeli minorities (most notably Israeli Arabs). However, there is a long-standing government policy of encouraging Bedouins to volunteer and of offering them various inducements, and in some impoverished Bedouin communities a military career seems one of the few means of (relative) social mobility available. Also, Muslims and Christians are accepted as volunteers, even at an age greater than 18.[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Bedouins_and_Israeli_Arabs

Don't forget, Palestinians who sell lands to jews (not just israelis, a canadian jew will do...) can and have received the death penalty

So your point is unmade...

Edited June 9, 2011 by M.Dancer

[Rue]

I'm not trolling. The thread topic question reflects my own musings,

Yes like you said, you are trolling.Calling it reflecting on your musings doesn't change that fact.

The Nakba comment also makes it clear you are atleast for me and probably some others insulting our intelligence trying to pose as a friend of Israel while throwing out that word. Give it a rest.

Your reflections at musings are meant to do what other than troll. You didn't ask a question you expected an answer to. Its clearly a statement posed as a question. Your statement could have been summarized in one short sentence-Israel in my opinion can not be democratic and Jewish at the same time.

Instead you chose to talk your way around the statement. Why? You afraid to say it? Why not just spew it out directly. Why the posing of words?

Tell me do you ask the same question of the Vatican, the United Kingdom, Muslim states?

You have any problem with the United Kingdom being democratic and an Anglican state? You have any problem with Greece being a Greek Orthodox state or Ukrainian Orthodox being deeply entrenched in the Ukrainian government's institutions and heritage?

You have a problem with India being a Hindu state or Thailand being a Buddist state?

Of course not.

Your intent and purpose is to stimply repeat the same mantra-when it comes to Jews unlike any other people in the world they should not have a state that protects and preserves their religion. Can't have universal sufferage for Jews now can we.

Yah you sound deeply touched by the holocaust. I am so glad you care so deeply about it but had this sudden realization Jews can't have a Jewish state and be democratic.

Golly gee the righteousness of your insight must have just come out of the sky and slapped you silly right?

Oh I know. Some of your best friends are Israelis and others Jews.

Yah I know. You ate a bagel once.

[jbg]

Oh but they have been. There have been a number of legal cases in which Jews who were illegally dispossessed of their property were given restitution. And if there are any who have not, then I absolutely agree that they should pursue those cases against the governments who are responsible.

You would be the first to say, I suspect, that money is no replacement for a home and/or a business. To start with all that the beneficiary of compensation would cover only the owner's former equity in the property, and not any amount attributable to a bank loan. And even then it would likely be at fire-sale (no pun intended) value. The problem the displaced persons had was not only that they were penniless; they were effectively homeless as well. Returning to a village where the people had "outed" them as Jews, and where new people were living in their homes and operating businesses would have been dangerous as well as futile.

[Rue]

If Canada was the size of Lake Erie, we would allow no one.

Lol unless it was a Jewish state. Then we would insist on wiping it

and its people out and calling them undemocratic and a wide range of names

as this thread is intended to do.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Rue

[Rue]

So why did Israel sign them?

Probably the same reason over 143 other countries with rights of return no different than Israel's did.

Was that a trick question?

What a lame thread. Go on just say it-Israel poo poo ka ka. Roll with the concept.

[Rue]

it's all a conspiracy and everyone is out to get the jews. because 'the right of return' is not about doing the right thing and allowing the people who were forced out by the violence to go back to their land and homes.

Oh look who's in on the inflammatory comments. Yeay! The crack about a conspiracy and everyone out to get the Jews-thanks for showing everyone how the real agenda behind such inciting is to attack not just Israelis but Jews.

Right thing? Do the right thing? You know what the right thing is? You decide what the right thing is? You have decided what will be right?

Here let me tell you in clear terms-what you think is the right thing is completely and utterly non germaine to the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

Your opinion is simply a re-hashed anti-semitic double standard that says Muslims and Christians can have states and multiple ones at that but Jews can't have just one small one.

There's no conspiracy Bud. Just people like you using the pretext of criticizing Israel's existence to try impose a double standard on Jews who struggled for universal sufferage and obtained it.

Keep yapping Bud, those Jews are going nowhere. No they won't poof disappear because you think that is the right thing.

[jbg]

Lol unless it was a Jewish state. Then we would insist on wiping it

and its people out and calling them undemocratic and a wide range of names

as this thread is intended to do.

Rue, that's the point I try to make with threads you call anti-Muslim. Can you now stop branding me as a bigot?

[bud]

Oh look who's in on the inflammatory comments. Yeay! The crack about a conspiracy and everyone out to get the Jews-thanks for showing everyone how the real agenda behind such inciting is to attack not just Israelis but Jews.

Right thing? Do the right thing? You know what the right thing is? You decide what the right thing is? You have decided what will be right?

Here let me tell you in clear terms-what you think is the right thing is completely and utterly non germaine to the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

Your opinion is simply a re-hashed anti-semitic double standard that says Muslims and Christians can have states and multiple ones at that but Jews can't have just one small one.

There's no conspiracy Bud. Just people like you using the pretext of criticizing Israel's existence to try impose a double standard on Jews who struggled for universal sufferage and obtained it.

Keep yapping Bud, those Jews are going nowhere. No they won't poof disappear because you think that is the right thing.

looks like you find your way to this board only after you miss your medication.

i don't think it's right for you to say that i hate jews because i agree with the geneva convention's 'right of return' policy which pretty much all countries, including israel, is a signatory to.

these people were driven out of their homes and land due to the violence and should be allowed to return to them. or at least, the issue should be dealt with in one way or another. perhaps some sort of compensation.

you realize that you are an anti-semite if you believe the people who were driven out of their homes should not be allowed to return to their homes and land.

Edited June 9, 2011 by bud

[M.Dancer]

[bud]

the video starts off with a bang:

"president obama has proposed that israel should return to its 1967 borders in exchange for being annihilated."

no point in watching anymore of the video since it's starts with b.s.

there is a difference between the bibi propaganda in this video and what obama really said:

"1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps" means the two sides will "negotiate a border that is different than the one that existed on June 4, 1967."

thanks for the propaganda, dancer.

[jbg]

"1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps" means the two sides will "negotiate a border that is different than the one that existed on June 4, 1967."

Your starting point would be 1944 borders?

[bud]

Your starting point would be 1944 borders?

what are you talking about?

[Rue]

Rue, that's the point I try to make with threads you call anti-Muslim. Can you now stop branding me as a bigot?

If you make a sweeping negative generalization I will challenge it as bigoted. Since you have made sweeping negative generalizations about all Muslims I have challenged them no differently then when others do it against Jews or Israelis.

If I find you continue to try incite negative generalizations about all Muslims I will keep challenging you.

There is a way for all of us to discuss the Middle East conflict without the same tiresome sweeping stereotypes spewed against Israelis, Jews, Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Rue

[Guest American Woman]

Amen to that.

[Rue]

1-looks like you find your way to this board only after you miss your medication.

2-i don't think it's right for you to say that i hate jews because i agree with the geneva convention's 'right of return' policy which

3-you realize that you are an anti-semite if you believe the people who were driven out of their homes should not be allowed to return to their homes and land.

In regards to 1, this is exactly the comment one expects from you. You come to

this board to try bait people. This is why most people just ignore you now. You

are a one trick pony whose act wore it self out many posts ago.

In regards to 2,I never stated you hate Jews let alone hate Jews because

of your subjective interpretation of a portion of the Geneva Convention. What I challenged

was your need to attack all Jews negatively in your discussion questioning Israel's

existence. Bud, the attempt to try change what you did and what I challenged

is an exercise that fools no one. Bud the only one who comes on this forum

and assigns motive to people is you, not I. In fact I challenge you precisely

because you presume to know what people think and feel.

In regards to 3, no Bud don't lecture me. Don't tell me what I should realize. Speak for

yourself. Therein lies one of your reoccuring problems Bud. You like to tell people

what they HAVE to think. Its your way or no way. People Bud who presume they are in

a position to lecture others and command how they should think or as you state "realize"

simply manifest narcissism, the need to have others reflect their own feelings adn thoughts.

Its called narcissism Bud. A narcissist needs everyone to agree with him. He lectures

and points his finger and presumes all must reflect his image.

Bud that usually is a sign of someone overcompensating for their own feelings of insecurity.

However I would never presume to suggest you feel insecure or are an immature child who

still needs to get up on a soap box and scream through a microphone. Lol. Not me.

I will say this though Bud. The more you respond, the more it becomes obvious you are

not interested in anyone's opinion but your own.

I would suggest you save the kind of approach you use for JBG. I'm not interested

in people whose mission on this forum is to incite anger, and polarize people.

Its boring,mundane, tedious, unoriginal, rigid, inflexible, lacking in any positive

content.

What is does do is repeat the same polarized rant calling for Israel's destruction.

Scream all you want Bud, Israel is not going poof.

Also Bud you are quite funny. For someone who claims to respect a law of return,

you are selective which one you approve of and therein lies the absurdity of your

statement but I doubt legally you could understand why by supporting one law of

return but not another, you contradicted yourself. In your world legal

conceptualization and the understanding of how international doctrine are applied

don't seem germaine to your conclusions now do they.

[DogOnPorch]

Pat does it again.

[eCitizen]

Probably the same reason over 143 other countries with rights of return no different than Israel's did.

Was that a trick question?

What a lame thread. Go on just say it-Israel poo poo ka ka. Roll with the concept.

Is that it? Israel poo poo ka ka? Do you actually have a historical argument? A fact based argument? Do you know anything at all? Looking at your posts in this thread, I'm not seeing much evidence of anything but a lot of enmity for some of the other members.

There is a program on one of the cable channels that features live video taken in American jails. Every once in a while they show a prisoner who starts throwing feces at the window of his holding cell and smearing it all over the place. Poo poo ka ka.

Indeed.

[eCitizen]

You would be the first to say, I suspect, that money is no replacement for a home and/or a business. To start with all that the beneficiary of compensation would cover only the owner's former equity in the property, and not any amount attributable to a bank loan. And even then it would likely be at fire-sale (no pun intended) value. The problem the displaced persons had was not only that they were penniless; they were effectively homeless as well. Returning to a village where the people had "outed" them as Jews, and where new people were living in their homes and operating businesses would have been dangerous as well as futile.

Yes you are right! I agree with you. How can you compensate for a life, a family, a home, a business, a career? To be uprooted and displaced or worse. Much worse.

But the law at least provides for some form of redress. No it is not the same, but it is something. It is at least an acknowledgement. Yes you have been wronged. Yes this is not right what was done to you, to your family. At least there is that. And that is something that the world can see. This should not be allowed to happen. This is wrong. This is what we believe is fair and just; though there is little we can do, we can at least do this.

And at the end of the day, isn't what this is really about? Some measure of fairness? Some justice? Some recognition? And most especially for those who do not have power to force it out of those who have wronged them. That is surely when justice and fairness are most important of all and when we really show our mettle as a species.

And of course that brings us to the Palestinians. They are owed a "Right of Return". Whether or not that is something Israel considers possible is really about declaring a bargaining position. If the Israelis don't want to give that up, then it is something they must bargain for. It is not enough that some twit like Netenyahu can fold his arms and declare, "No. Not ever. Impossible. Hrumph."

And when one speaks of such a right or return, somebody on the Israeli side says, "Well what about those Jews driven out of Arab lands?" Certainly. They too may be owed a right of return. And they should pursue that with the countries responsible just as the Palestinian Arabs are pursuing their right of return with Israel.

Where this goes off the track is when somebody says, "Well we'll just trade the Palestinian Arab right of return for that of the Jews who had to leave Arab countries." Naturally, that is untenable. This is making Palestinians Arabs suffer because of actions taken by governments over whom they had no control, whether those governments acted in sympathy or not.

Edited June 10, 2011 by eCitizen

[DogOnPorch]

eCitizen: But the law at least provides for some form of redress. No it is not the same, but it is something. It is at least an acknowledgement. Yes you have been wronged. Yes this is not right what was done to you, to your family. At least there is that. And that is something that the world can see. This should not be allowed to happen. This is wrong. This is what we believe is fair and just; though there is little we can do, we can at least do this.

So...you're all for South Vietnam being reborn, I gather?

[M.Dancer]

So...you're all for South Vietnam being reborn, I gather?

And the citizens of Danzig...Kurile Islands, parts of northern italy, Texas, California, Acadia, east prussia...countless african countries....tibet...

There is nothing unique about Israels position. The Arabs that left, left fully with the expectation that they would return to take possession of the property of dead jews.

Sucks to be them and it should.

[DogOnPorch]

And the citizens of Danzig...Kurile Islands, parts of northern italy, Texas, California, Acadia, east prussia...countless african countries....tibet...

There is nothing unique about Israels position. The Arabs that left, left fully with the expectation that they would return to take possession of the property of dead jews.

Sucks to be them and it should.

I use the invasion and fall of South Viet-Nam specifically since it occured after both the 6 Day War and Yom Kippur...and, of course, UN 242...which I rightly argue is aimed only @ Israel. The big difference would be that North Viet-Nam's invasion, occupation and destruction of the South worked unlike the Arabs who failed miserably numerous times in attacking Israel.

Now, logically, bud and crew should be up in arms about the invasion, occupation and destruction of South Viet-Nam...but they're not. Nor will they ever be since these other conflicts (like the others you mention) are missing that one particular element. Jews.