Can "a Jewish state" be a democracy?

[Uncle 3 dogs]

In May on Nakba, unarmed Arabs began walking back to their homelands in Israel. 24 were killed before the Israeli soldiers stood down.

As a youth I celebrated the establishment of a safe home for the Jews so traumatized by the holocaust. As an elder now observing the indefensible attack on Gaza and IDF shooting of unarmed protesters, I wonder whether Canada has encouraged the entrenchodou of a monster state.

Can democracy exist where there is official religious discrimination?

As a "friend of (the Jewish state of ) Israel", is Canada's government violating the democratic principles of our own constitution?

In my opinion, yes. In fact it's surprising that HarperCanada would support religious discrimination against Christians in Israel.

How can Canada support a truly democratic Israel with nondiscrimination against (Muslim, Christian, agnostic, etc.) people?

The questions become urgent now because I believe that the endless United Nations discussions and negotiations will soon become totally irrelevant. As unarmed Palestinian men and women enmasse simply walk back to their homelands, another violent reaction by the IDF will clearly put Israel in the same category as Ghadafi and other brutal and repressive regimes.

So . . . should Canada not be preparing to address the issue of religious freedom in Israel instead of propping up an unsustainable state defined by one religion to the exclusion of all others?

These are just my thoughts and questions based on my imperfect knowledge.

What are yours?

There is no reason democracy can't exist in a state with an official religion.That is a bit of a red herring if the point you want to make is that shooting unarmed protestors is incompatible with democracy. they are two different things.

[eCitizen]

Haaretz weighs in on 1948 and Israeli mythology concerning the Palestinian evacuation of Haifa...

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/port-in-a-storm-1.365729

Edited June 4, 2011 by eCitizen

[eCitizen]

There is no reason democracy can't exist in a state with an official religion.That is a bit of a red herring if the point you want to make is that shooting unarmed protestors is incompatible with democracy. they are two different things.

How about if that state favours the members of the "official religion" with respect to its policies? Israel's immigration, housing, land policies.... etc. all heavily favour Jews.

[Saipan]

Can "a Jewish state" be a democracy?

It is. And the only democracy in that part of the world.

[Bob]

How about if that state favours the members of the "official religion" with respect to its policies? Israel's immigration, housing, land policies.... etc. all heavily favour Jews.

Israel doesn't have an official religion. In Israel, Jewish emigration isn't seen as emigration, rather it is a return to the homeland. And that relates to NON-CITIZENS. Even if you are to describe this as a discriminatory immigration policy, it is irrelevant to the day-to-day life of current Israeli citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish alike.

What do you know about Israel's "housing" or "land" policies? Enlighten us as to how Israel's "housing and land policies" favour Jewish people. I sure hope you can provide something more substantial than a quote from a "controversy" section from Wikipedia citing an editorial from The Guardian.

I know one thing, Arabs and religious Jewish students are exempted from national service. Is that not an example of favouritism for Arabs and the ultra-orthodox, while punishing the rest of Israelis? You conveniently left out the biggest example of discrimination in Israel, which favours the Arabs. Doesn't quite fit with your false narrative of Israel discriminating against its non-Jewish citizens, eh?

Edited June 4, 2011 by Bob

[jacee]

There is no reason democracy can't exist in a state with an official religion.That is a bit of a red herring if the point you want to make is that shooting unarmed protestors is incompatible with democracy. they are two different things.

A "state religion" is what is meant by "a Jewish state"?

[Bob]

A "state religion" is what is meant by "a Jewish state"?

The term "Jewish state" is stated in Israel's declaration of independence. That's it. There's no constitution in Israel delineating Judaism as a state religion. Jewish religious law doesn't inform our legal system. And Israel is the Jewish state. It is not the same thing as an official state religion. You don't seem to understand what an official state religion entails. Start with Iran and Pakistan as case studies to understand real examples of states with an official state religion.

Why are you ignoring my request for elaboration on your commentary in your earlier post? I think we both know why...

[eCitizen]

Israel doesn't have an official religion. In Israel, Jewish emigration isn't seen as emigration, rather it is a return to the homeland. And that relates to NON-CITIZENS. Even if you are to describe this as a discriminatory immigration policy, it is irrelevant to the day-to-day life of current Israeli citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish alike.

What do you know about Israel's "housing" or "land" policies? Enlighten us as to how Israel's "housing and land policies" favour Jewish people. I sure hope you can provide something more substantial than a quote from a "controversy" section from Wikipedia citing an editorial from The Guardian.

I know one thing, Arabs and religious Jewish students are exempted from national service. Is that not an example of favouritism for Arabs and the ultra-orthodox, while punishing the rest of Israelis? You conveniently left out the biggest example of discrimination in Israel, which favours the Arabs. Doesn't quite fit with your false narrative of Israel discriminating against its non-Jewish citizens, eh?

What do I know? More than you give me credit for, apparently.

Religion - the Jewish state doesn't have an official religion. Good one.

Immigration - (emigration refers to the process of leaving a country; immigration is incoming. Check your dictionary.) The policy favours the members of one religion. Whether they are citizens at the time is immaterial since they invariably become citizens and thereby increase the population and democratic weight of the favoured religion. How it is "seen" is really irrelevant. Immigration by any other name is still immigration.

Land policy - if you are a settler as your subtitle indicates (and a Judaeosupremacist !), you can't be serious in saying land policies do not favour Jews. Once those immigrants arrive and become citizens, they are offered loans at very favourable rates and placement in new housing blocks, often in settlements. In any case, I refer you to the covenants of the JNF.

Military service - military service is fundamental to full acceptance into Israeli life and considered not only a duty but a rite of citizenship. There is resentment against those who do not serve who are seen as getting a "free ride". In any case, Arabs are not invited to serve in the military because they are not considered trustworthy.

Given your self-description, your post is clearly disingenuous. My guess is that you are one of the those Hasbara types and that further discussion will just produce more of the same.

Edited June 5, 2011 by eCitizen

[Bob]

What do I know? More than you, apparently.

Religion - the Jewish state doesn't have an official religion. Good one.

Immigration - (emigration refers to the process of leaving a country; immigration is incoming. Check your dictionary.) The policy favours the members of one religion. Whether they are citizens at the time is immaterial since they invariably become citizens and thereby increase the population and democratic weight of the favoured religion. How it is "seen" is really irrelevant. Immigration by any other name is still immigration.

Land policy - if you are a settler as your subtitle indicates (and a Judaeosupremacist !), you can't be serious in saying land policies do not favour Jews. Once those immigrants arrive and become citizens, they are offered loans at very favourable rates and placement in new housing blocks, often in settlements. In any case, I refer you to the covenants of the JNF.

Military service - military service is fundamental to full acceptance into Israeli life and considered not only a duty but a rite of citizenship. There is resentment against those who do not serve who are seen as getting a "free ride". In any case, Arabs are not invited to serve in the military because they are not considered trustworthy.

Given your self-description, your post is clearly disingenuous. My guess is that you are one of the those Hasbara types and that further discussion will just produce more of the same.

What I meant to say was that Jewish emigration to Israel is not considered random immigration, it is viewed as a return to the homeland. Since it deals with non-citizens wishing to become citizens, it is not an example illustrating what you claim to be Israeli discrimination against non-Jews within Israel. The idea that the Jews of Israel are some sort of homogenous group increasing our "democratic weight" is quite silly. It ignores the heterogeneous nature of Jews in this country. Beyond that, this is the Jewish state - and the Law of Return is a fundamental component of this country. It is an inextricable part of Zionism, and Israel being the Jewish state and homeland of Jewish people who choose to live here.

The "preferable rates" given to Olim to Israel are a joke. It's a fraction of a percent of your mortgage. And again, this applies to Olim, not ordinary citizens. It does NOT lend a preferential treatment to Jewish people in this country at the expense of the non-Jewish population.

"Placement is housing blocks"? Now you're really making things up. Buying a home in this country is like buying a home anywhere else. You don't cue in some line-up and get bumped up because you're Jewish.

The JNF if a largely private organization and can conduct things as it wishes. It's owns a small fraction of land in Israel, anyways. You probably don't know the difference between the JNF and ILA, and are trying to put on some front as if you're familiar with these institutions. We're all still waiting for how "Israeli land policies" discriminate against non-Jews in Israel. JNF polices are NOT Israeli policies. God bless the JNF, anyways, as it is a crucial part of modern Jewish and Israeli history in Israel and the pre-Israel British Mandate for Palestine. I'll await your smear campaign.

Please spare us your insights into Israeli society's perceptions of military service. Many people don't do their service for a variety of reasons - sometimes legitimate, sometimes not. A person with good skills, education, and/or experience will not have a difficult finding work in this country. The way you try and twist Arab exemptions from army service (and they CAN join the army if they choose to, or do alternative options of national service) as some sort of disadvantage for the Arabs is quite rich. It's basically another three years free for the males and two years free for the females. According to false characterization, these poor Arabs will now endlessly suffer in Israel by experiencing hurdles to obtaining employment because of their lack of national service - despite the fact that they could do this service if they so choose (small groups of Arab do enlist in the army or perform alternative national service).

And Israel doesn't have an official religion, despite your attempts to tell us otherwise. Please explain to us what an "official state religion" is, according to you, and then explain to all of us how Israel fits that's characterization.

[Saipan]

Israel is as much Jewish state as Egypt is Arab state.

[eCitizen]

What I meant to say was that Jewish emigration to Israel is not considered random immigration, it is viewed as a return to the homeland. Since it deals with non-citizens wishing to become citizens, it is not an example illustrating what you claim to be Israeli discrimination against non-Jews within Israel. The idea that the Jews of Israel are some sort of homogenous group increasing our "democratic weight" is quite silly. It ignores the heterogeneous nature of Jews in this country. Beyond that, this is the Jewish state - and the Law of Return is a fundamental component of this country. It is an inextricable part of Zionism, and Israel being the Jewish state and homeland of Jewish people who choose to live here.

The "preferable rates" given to Olim to Israel are a joke. It's a fraction of a percent of your mortgage. And again, this applies to Olim, not ordinary citizens. It does NOT lend a preferential treatment to Jewish people in this country at the expense of the non-Jewish population.

"Placement is housing blocks"? Now you're really making things up. Buying a home in this country is like buying a home anywhere else. You don't cue in some line-up and get bumped up because you're Jewish.

The JNF if a largely private organization and can conduct things as it wishes. It's owns a small fraction of land in Israel, anyways. You probably don't know the difference between the JNF and ILA, and are trying to put on some front as if you're familiar with these institutions. We're all still waiting for how "Israeli land policies" discriminate against non-Jews in Israel. JNF polices are NOT Israeli policies. God bless the JNF, anyways, as it is a crucial part of modern Jewish and Israeli history in Israel and the pre-Israel British Mandate for Palestine. I'll await your smear campaign.

Please spare us your insights into Israeli society's perceptions of military service. Many people don't do their service for a variety of reasons - sometimes legitimate, sometimes not. A person with good skills, education, and/or experience will not have a difficult finding work in this country. The way you try and twist Arab exemptions from army service (and they CAN join the army if they choose to, or do alternative options of national service) as some sort of disadvantage for the Arabs is quite rich. It's basically another three years free for the males and two years free for the females. According to false characterization, these poor Arabs will now endlessly suffer in Israel by experiencing hurdles to obtaining employment because of their lack of national service - despite the fact that they could do this service if they so choose (small groups of Arab do enlist in the army or perform alternative national service).

And Israel doesn't have an official religion, despite your attempts to tell us otherwise. Please explain to us what an "official state religion" is, according to you, and then explain to all of us how Israel fits that's characterization.

What you meant to say? What you are doing is spinning. You think that because you make a distinction between one kind of immigration and another, everybody else should just go along with it. The fact remains that Israel deliberately favours immigration of Jews and stacks the deck in favour of a Jewish demographic majority. The heterogeneity of Jews is completely irrelevant. Try to focus on the point under discussion.

Not sure what olim means. I don't speak Hebrew and have absolutely no interest in learning it. This is an English board. Speak English. If you want to speak Hebrew, find a Hebrew board.

Your characterisation of the JNF as a small private organisation with a small amount of land is inaccurate and you know it. Here is the Wikipedia entry....Jewish National Fund which indicates the JNF has controlled 13% of all land in Israel and has been actively finding land to house Jewish immigrants (relevant to my point re land policy, huh?). Here is a quote from that Wikipedia article describing the JNF's attitude towards Arabs...

In July 2007, the Israeli Knesset approved the Jewish National Fund Bill, submitted by MK Uri Ariel (National Unity/National Religious Party), in its preliminary reading; the bill sought to authorize the JNF practice of refusing to lease land to Arab citizens.

This quote makes it abundantly clear how the JNF favours Jews and discriminates against Arabs. Note also the passage that refers to the JNF's role in acquiring land characterised as belonging to "missing persons" - i.e. Palestinian refugees.

As for the Arabs and military service, I stick to my assertion. Not serving in the military puts one at a disadvantage in Israel.

Edited June 5, 2011 by eCitizen

[DogOnPorch]

What you meant to say? What you are doing is spinning. You think that because you make a distinction between one kind of immigration and another, everybody else should just go along with it. The fact remains that Israel deliberately favours immigration of Jews and stacks the deck in favour of a Jewish demographic majority.

Ummm...so? It's not like their enemies next door are letting in Jews. They expelled theirs years ago.

[eCitizen]

Ummm...so? It's not like their enemies next door are letting in Jews. They expelled theirs years ago.

Oh I see. So now the thread is about something else is it? Typical. Whenever anybody debunks one of the many myths promulgated by Israel's supporters, somebody pops up and say "Oh yeah? Well the Arabs are worse!".

Read the thread title Dog on Porch. Stick to the subject.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh I see. So now the thread is about something else is it? Typical. Whenever anybody debunks one of the many myths promulgated by Israel's supporters, somebody pops up and say "Oh yeah? Well the Arabs are worse!".

Read the thread title Dog on Porch. Stick to the subject.

Oh we're off to a good start.

And yes...the Arabs ARE worse. I'm not down with any movement started by an SS man then run by a terrorist.

[eCitizen]

Oh we're off to a good start.

And yes...the Arabs ARE worse. I'm not down with any movement started by an SS man then run by a terrorist.

Huh? So now we're into tinfoil hat territory are we?

Stay on the porch DOP. Chasing cars will only get your pawsies trampled.

[DogOnPorch]

Huh? So now we're into tinfoil hat territory are we?

Stay on the porch DOP. Chasing cars will only get your pawsies trampled.

Are you saying the Grand Mufti wasn't hooked up with the Schutzstaffel? Me thinks you're the one with a tin foil hat.

Edited June 5, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Bob]

I typed emigration twice, when I meant to type it once. It was a typo as I was typing late at night. You are quite desperate to be attacking me for that, as the message was clear. Immigration policies do not affect existing citizenry. You are trying to suggest that Israel discriminates against its non-Jewish population. Immigration policies deal with non-citizens. So, immigration policies are irrelevant to an analysis of how non-Jewish minorities are treated within Israel. Beyond that, the Law of Return is a beautiful thing which is part of enshrining Israel's Jewish character, and the ultimate representation of Israel's function as the homeland of the Jewish people. I guess you have a problem with a Jewish homeland. I wonder why?

The JNF is not a governmental institution, and can set its own policies. It is a Jewish institution with an objective to promote an increased Jewish presence in Israel. There is widespread opposition to Arabs selling or renting lands/properties to Jews. In fact, there is a campaign of intimidation against many Arabs (particularly in Jerusalem) who choose to rent or sell property to Jewish people. Is this indicative of discrimination against Jews in Israel? There is also a lot of money coming into Israel from Arab and Muslim institutions with contrary objectives to increase the Arab/Muslim presence in Israel. They support purchasing of lands and properties for Arab/Muslim expansion. Good luck finding a Wikipedia entry on that. There's so much you don't know about this country, and I find it quite rich how you have the nerve to act as if you're in any position to educate me with your amateur-hour Wikipedia homework. Get real. I live here, care about these things, and am deeply involved with them on several levels.

You can stand by whatever assertion you want about national service - if Arabs feel discriminated against, they are welcome to perform their national service (military or alternatives). They have the option to do so, they are simply not required to do so. Unfortunately, there is also a common element of discrimination against Arabs (mostly the Muslim Arabs) from their communities when they choose to serve the country. I can tell you this, many Israelis would like to enjoy the opportunity of the Arabs to not be drafted to the army, and gain two (for girls) or three (for guys) years of their lives to themselves. It's very easy to obtain good employment in Israel without army service, provided you have good education and/or skills and/or experience. This mythology of some expectation in the professional world from job applicants to be ex-military is grossly overexaggerated. The reality is, this entire situation is a case of discrimination against the Jewish majority as the Arab minority is given a choice whereas the Jewish majority isn't.

[Bob]

Oh I see. So now the thread is about something else is it? Typical. Whenever anybody debunks one of the many myths promulgated by Israel's supporters, somebody pops up and say "Oh yeah? Well the Arabs are worse!".

Read the thread title Dog on Porch. Stick to the subject.

What myth? You're the one who has made allegation based on a weak grasp of "the facts". You have yet to demonstrate how Israel's "housing and land policies" favour Jews. Anyone can buy or lease land from the state (the ILA). Anyone can buy, sell, or rent property anywhere (legally, although of course reality can be different going both ways). And Israel doesn't have an official state religion, contrary to your assertion. You're wrong on all fronts.

The only place where your statement has truth is the description of Israel giving preferential treatment to Jews for immigration. But even this isn't an issue of preference. Jews can make Israel their home. End of story. It is a completely different process, and we are not immigrating - we are returning. On the other hand, it is almost impossible for a non-Jew to emigrate to Israel (as it should be). And this is essential to preserve Israel as the Jewish state, to prevent us from being dispossessed and placed at the mercy of others yet again. And immigration policies are not relevant to the assertion that non-Jews inside of Israel are discriminated against in some sort of systemic manner.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Bob

[DogOnPorch]

That he goes...

Grand Who-fti?

...tells you what you need to know.

[Saipan]

Whenever anybody debunks one of the many myths promulgated by Israel's supporters, somebody pops up and say "Oh yeah? Well the Arabs are worse!".

First, there are no myths. And second Arabs are no worse. They are bad beyond any comparison, so in fact can't even be compared to Jews or anyone else.

Perhaps Jews should, for a little while, immitate what happen in countries like say Afghanistan. Dynamite any trace of Islam and kill anyone not fast enough to escape. Just for a day. So the Islamic world can look into its own mirror for once.

[jbg]

Haaretz weighs in on 1948 and Israeli mythology concerning the Palestinian evacuation of Haifa...

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/port-in-a-storm-1.365729

The overall sense I get from reading that article is that ongoing violence by the Arabs in response to upcoming Israel independence was a crucial fact. The Israelis were not about to forfeit their chance for national independence on the altar of a nonviolent response to sickening violence.

[jbg]

Not sure what olim means. I don't speak Hebrew and have absolutely no interest in learning it. This is an English board. Speak English.

This is a Canadian board. Speak Canadian.

[Remiel]

The only place where your statement has truth is the description of Israel giving preferential treatment to Jews for immigration. But even this isn't an issue of preference. Jews can make Israel their home. End of story. It is a completely different process, and we are not immigrating - we are returning. On the other hand, it is almost impossible for a non-Jew to emigrate to Israel (as it should be). And this is essential to preserve Israel as the Jewish state, to prevent us from being dispossessed and placed at the mercy of others yet again. And immigration policies are not relevant to the assertion that non-Jews inside of Israel are discriminated against in some sort of systemic manner.

It is immigration, at the end of the day. You can dress it up in whatever fancy words you want, but it is immigration, the same as if I moved to Britain it would be immigration. I am at least as connected to the Isles as most Jews are to Israel. That is, however, mostly a semantic point.

Anyway, I think the more pressing problem is not discrimination in immigration per se, but discrimination in growth. From what I have read in Ha'aretz, which I read often, is that it is extraordinarily difficult for an Arab to get a building permit, which I can imagine would have serious repercussions in the long run for the growth of population and industry, and for the decline of health and well-being. Being able to buy land is fine and dandy, but if you cannot put anything on it, what is the point? Perhaps you could speak to this aspect of affairs.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Remiel

[Remiel]

This is a Canadian board. Speak Canadian.

If this is a joke, it got old like three years ago. If it is not a joke, it got old three years ago. Either way, drop it.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Remiel

[eCitizen]

Here is an Al Jazeera online item on this subject Can equality exist in the Jewish state?

Note the comments regarding the advantages of serving in the military.

Edited June 6, 2011 by eCitizen