The Bible

[segnosaur]

This is the interpretation in the study.

More appropriately, this is the interpretation that you have decided to follow. It does not mean that it is the only possible interpretation, nor whether your interpretation is actually correct (as in the one the imaginary sky-daddy would actually want you to follow.)

Which is one of the other problems with the bible.... if this really is supposed to be the "word of god" why didn't he make things a lot more clearer?

Oh, that's right... because the "bible" is basically the result of random writings written by various unknown authors crammed together, without them making any sort of effort to be consistent.

[segnosaur]

segnosaur, your patience in putting together a response to all of that is pretty amazing.

Yeah, I know. But then, people like Betsy are pretty simple-minded, and their arguments are easy to debunk.

Not that I'd ever expect to convince her of anything; I think she's too far gone. However, there may be people who do have the capability of rational thought who may not have seen her arguments before and might be fooled. That's why I sometimes answer her posts.

The most annoying thing though... pretty much all she can do is cut-and-paste. I sincerely doubt she has the ability to even put together her own thoughts. All she can do is parrot what she sees others post.

[cybercoma]

their arguments are easy to debunk. Not that I'd ever expect to convince her of anything

This has got to be the most infuriating part about even bothering to reply to her nonsense. That's why I never bother responding to her line for line.

[segnosaur]

Aside from the 10 Commandments given to Moses, there were other strict laws given by God.

Which 10 commandments would those be?

The ones from Exodus 20, or the ones from Exodus 34 (which has such demands such as "Don't boil a goat in its mother's milk")?

You know, you'd think that an all-knowning god would be able to remember what commandments he gave to Moses the first time around. Maybe god has alzheimers.

There is no contradiction.

Actually, yes there is. You just prefer to make an interpretation that pretends there isn't. The intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "La la la... I can't hear you".

By the way, I notice that even in your responses, all you ever seem to do is cut-and-past from other sources. Tell me, do you have any original thoughts in your brain? Or is your way of thinking "If someone else didn't say it first it doesn't exist"?

Oh, and by the way, given the fact that you're posting from sites without giving proper copyright attribution, you're in effect stealing from the original author. Pretty sure there's a commandment against that somewhere. (Unless of course you decide on an interpretation that actually allows you to steal. Wonderful thing about the bible... more flexible than gumby.)

[betsy]

More appropriately, this is the interpretation that you have decided to follow.

And of course, it is an interpretation you reject.

I've given not only the particular verse or quote you presented, but also several verses attached to it so you can see the context. And as the passages show, the interpretation given is right.

Furthermore, I also included ACTS 15 - and clearly they're talking about the Mosaic Law with circumcision as an example! Go ahead and check out a Bible.

It does not mean that it is the only possible interpretation, nor whether your interpretation is actually correct (as in the one the imaginary sky-daddy would actually want you to follow.)

Well then, cite another interpretation.

Which is one of the other problems with the bible.... if this really is supposed to be the "word of god" why didn't he make things a lot more clearer?

Don't look to me for the answer to that. You ask Him.

Oh, that's right... because the "bible" is basically the result of random writings written by various unknown authors

A lot of the authors are known.

crammed together,

Spanning thousands of years.

without them making any sort of effort to be consistent.

Yes, nothing contrived.... and yet considering the thousands of years it remained consistent.

[Saipan]

The biggest wooden ship ever built was 300 feet, and it had to be pumped out constantly.

The longest wooden ship ever built, the six-masted New England gaff schooner Wyoming, had a "total length" of 137 metres (449 ft)

Noah's Ark 450'. Pretty much the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world's_largest_wooden_ships

Some sources indicate considerably larger Chinese Junks. Some 3000 years ago but that is hard to confirm, 'though easily possible since Junk sails need incredibly small crew. (no need to be pumped except when just launched dry)

[betsy]

FACT: NOTHING HOLDS UP THE EARTH. IT'S AFFECTED BY GRAVITY.

Yet in Psalm 18 it refers to "The foundations of the world". Ummm... the earth doesn't have a "foundation".

Because you're reading the wrong "foundation."

"foundations of the world" is not the same as "foundation" of a house.

foun•da•tion   /faʊnˈdeɪʃən/ Show Spelled

[foun-dey-shuhn] Show IPA

–noun

1. the basis or groundwork of anything: the moral foundation of both society and religion.

Notice why "foundations" is plural? I guess we're talking about standards.

Psalm 18:13-15

13The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

14Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

15Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

And it is within the context of moral grounds. Psalm 18:13-15 pictures an angry, rebuking God.

Edited May 26, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

FACT: THE EARTH IS ROUND.

Yet in the new testament the devil brings Jebus to the top of a mountain to see "all the kingdoms of the world". If the earth is round, he wouldn't be able to do so.

Even if the world is flat, any ordinary person wouldn't be able to do so!

Remember, it's the devil who's involved here....supernatural!

Either supernatural, or figure of speech - looking as far as the eyes can see and seeing splendor of the vista around you which could include skyline of surrounding kingdoms.

Edited May 26, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

FACT: Incalculable Numbers of Stars

Except we can calculate the number of stars.

300 Sextillion.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/01/the-estimated-number-of-stars-in-the-universe-just-tripled/

DONE THAT!

Genesis 22:15-17

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.

Try counting the sand on the seashore!

Edited May 26, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Why exactly is that "proof" of anything? I'm sure sailors have had to navigate around islands in the ocean for millenium. Knowing that the sea floor is varied would be something that would be considered common knowledge.

Check out your science. We're talking mountains and trenches UNDER the ocean!

How would've sailors navigate that???? How could've they even suspected, what more determined that there are mountain ranges and deep trenches and valley in the depths of the ocean! You're trying hard.

[betsy]

Yeah, I know. But then, people like Betsy are pretty simple-minded, and their arguments are easy to debunk.

Not that I'd ever expect to convince her of anything; I think she's too far gone. However, there may be people who do have the capability of rational thought who may not have seen her arguments before and might be fooled. That's why I sometimes answer her posts.

The most annoying thing though... pretty much all she can do is cut-and-paste. I sincerely doubt she has the ability to even put together her own thoughts. All she can do is parrot what she sees others post.

Here is when you know they realize they're losing their argument. They start with the insults and the name-calling!

This is a classic dead give-away!

FACT: Mountains and Trenches in the depths of the ocean

Why exactly is that "proof" of anything? I'm sure sailors have had to navigate around islands in the ocean for millenium. Knowing that the sea floor is varied would be something that would be considered common knowledge.

Edited May 26, 2011 by betsy

[scouterjim]

I used to think that the New Testament is "different" than the Old. But it's not. It's a common misconception I guess - but actually Jesus Himself was clear about that.

In the Old Testament, God gave the Law. In the New Testament, Jesus EXPANDED on those law.

You danced around an answer. WHY did He mellow out so much? Do they have good ganja in Heaven or what?

[Moonlight Graham]

Well...what can I say. It's hard to show something to someone who's got their eyes tightly shut.

Right back at ya sister!

[MightyAC]

We know the earth is spherical, even the ancient Greeks knew it. Pythagoras knew it in the 6th century B.C.E, Anaxagoras (5th cent), Aristotle, Aristarchus (4th cent B.C.E), In the 3rd cent B.C.E Eratoshenes measured estimated the diameter of the earth within 12% of the actual value. Yet the bible got it wrong.

Daniel 4:10-11 - Nebuchadnezzar dreams about a tree that was so tall that it could been seen "from the end of the earth." Only on a flat earth would this be possible.

4:10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.

4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

[MightyAC]

We know there was not a world flood, especially one that covered the mountain tops as stated in Genesis 6. We also know that all the world's plant and animal life could not fit on a 450 foot long boat with one window for ventilation.

So a giant wooden boat carrying all the worlds lifeforms came to rest in one spot. Many of the lifeforms that exist today would not be suited to the climate in that location and simply die. Many of the animals would kill and eat other plants and animals before they could reproduce. There are a million logical flaws with this story and I know that most Christians know it is just a fairytale.

The point is you can't cherry pick true claims and ignore the vast quantities of bullshit.

[Saipan]

WHY did He mellow out so much?

It comes with age.

[segnosaur]

The longest wooden ship ever built, the six-masted New England gaff schooner Wyoming, had a "total length" of 137 metres (449 ft)

Noah's Ark 450'. Pretty much the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world's_largest_wooden_ships

Did you ever, you know, actually read the information in the reference you provided?

The Wyoming's "total length" includes the length of the jibbloom. The useful length (i.e. surface area that could be used for cargo) is listed at 329 feet. (It says so right in your reference!)

Counting the extra wooden beam at the front of the ship is kind of like claiming that a creationist is 7 feet tall because they're wearing a 2 foot tall dunce cap.

And the reference goes on to say:

This American ship had a tendency to flex in heavy seas, causing the long planks to twist and buckle. This allowed sea water into the hold, which had to be pumped out.

So a ship that's 100 feet shorter ends up leaking like a sieve. Do people really think that that proves the Ark is feasible? Wonder if Noah had a diesel pump to empty the water.

Some sources indicate considerably larger Chinese Junks.

And there are many sources that deny it. Considering they've never actually found a complete ship I think there are reasons to be very skeptical of the claims of such large ships.

[segnosaur]

So a giant wooden boat carrying all the worlds lifeforms came to rest in one spot. Many of the lifeforms that exist today would not be suited to the climate in that location and simply die.

And don't forget the fish... Most species of fish are very specific about where they live... they can either handle salt water or fresh water. What exactly do they think is going to happen with a 'global flood'? Will it make the sea salty? There goes all your perch, snakeheads, and anyone one of a number of freshwater species. Will it make the sea fresh water? Goodbye great white shark and clownfish.

Many of the animals would kill and eat other plants and animals before they could reproduce.

Assuming they survive.

Some animals have very specific dietary requirements. Cats require taurine or they will die. Koala's require eukaliptis leaves. None of which would be available on board Noah's ark.

[betsy]

You danced around an answer. WHY did He mellow out so much? Do they have good ganja in Heaven or what?

And you're not listening.

He did not...."mellow." He EXPANDEDthe Commandments of God.

Example, the 10 Commandments said "thou shalt not commit adultery." You think adultery starts with the act? No way, said Jesus.

Jesus' explanation on that: you already commit adultery if you entertain wet dreams about the other person's spouse!

Does that sound being "mellow" to you?

I don't know what you mean about that ganja word. For all I know you're talking about voodoo!

Cite the passage!

Edited May 26, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Right back at ya sister!

I hope you notice that at least, I'm peeking and taking a look at science - and not just popular science rags either!

[betsy]

Most of the responses here given by the scoffers are based on ignorance of the Bible! It's obvious, they either parrot Dawkins and others like him, or just willy-nilly pick out a Bible verse or statement here and there and try to pass it off as a source for their argument.

I've got news for you guys. If you don't understand or just quote-mine a statement and/or take things out of context, you'd find statements in the Bible that says "there is no God."

I guess you need Bible 101. How to read and interpret the Bible.

[betsy]

We know the earth is spherical, even the ancient Greeks knew it. Pythagoras knew it in the 6th century B.C.E, Anaxagoras (5th cent), Aristotle, Aristarchus (4th cent B.C.E), In the 3rd cent B.C.E Eratoshenes measured estimated the diameter of the earth within 12% of the actual value. Yet the bible got it wrong.

Daniel 4:10-11 - Nebuchadnezzar dreams about a tree that was so tall that it could been seen "from the end of the earth." Only on a flat earth would this be possible.

4:10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.

4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

Above is an example of an out-of-context interpretation. Below is most of Daniel 4.

4 I, Nebuchadnezzar, was at home in my palace, contented and prosperous. 5 I had a dream that made me afraid. As I was lying in bed, the images and visions that passed through my mind terrified me. 6 So I commanded that all the wise men of Babylon be brought before me to interpret the dream for me. 7 When the magicians, enchanters, astrologers and diviners came, I told them the dream, but they could not interpret it for me. 8 Finally, Daniel came into my presence and I told him the dream. (He is called Belteshazzar, after the name of my god, and the spirit of the holy gods is in him.)

9 I said, “Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you, and no mystery is too difficult for you. Here is my dream; interpret it for me. 10 These are the visions I saw while lying in bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. 11 The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth. 12 Its leaves were beautiful, its fruit abundant, and on it was food for all. Under it the wild animals found shelter, and the birds lived in its branches; from it every creature was fed.

13 “In the visions I saw while lying in bed, I looked, and there before me was a holy one, a messenger,[c] coming down from heaven. 14 He called in a loud voice: ‘Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches. 15 But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze, remain in the ground, in the grass of the field.

“‘Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, and let him live with the animals among the plants of the earth. 16 Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times[d] pass by for him.

17 “‘The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of people.’

18 “This is the dream that I, King Nebuchadnezzar, had. Now, Belteshazzar, tell me what it means, for none of the wise men in my kingdom can interpret it for me. But you can, because the spirit of the holy gods is in you.”

Daniel Interprets the Dream

19 Then Daniel (also called Belteshazzar) was greatly perplexed for a time, and his thoughts terrified him. So the king said, “Belteshazzar, do not let the dream or its meaning alarm you.”

Belteshazzar answered, “My lord, if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries! 20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the wild animals, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds— 22 Your Majesty, you are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

First, let's make it clear that the king said he had a dream. So he related his dream to Daniel for interpretation.

Daniel's interpretation was that the tree was the king!

22 Your Majesty, you are that tree!

This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

Edited May 26, 2011 by betsy

[cybercoma]

they either parrot Dawkins and others like him, or just willy-nilly pick out a Bible verse or statement here and there and try to pass it off as a source for their argument.

Really?

I have never met anyone in my life so lacking in self-awareness.

[cybercoma]

betsy, face it. segno just trounced you. You asked for people to address your specific claims and he addressed every last one of them with reasonable arguments and you've got nothing left to come back at him with because you don't think for yourself. I'm sure over the next few days you'll quote-mine websites and post huge passages without links, which is illegal and against the rules btw.

[Moonlight Graham]

The point is you can't cherry pick true claims and ignore the vast quantities of bullshit.

ding ding! winner.