The Bible

[betsy]

The Bible is a book. A book of suggestions and parables, but no more true than Harry Potter.

You're trying to convince yourself? Or are you in denial?

Edited May 24, 2011 by betsy

[cybercoma]

With the amount of garbage that you cut and paste on this forum, betsy, one might ask you the same thing.

[Moonlight Graham]

The least I expect from you - if you are truly searching for truth - is that you'd acknowledge, at the very least, that the Bible is worth looking into.

Of course it is. It's a historical set of documents at the very least.

[Moonlight Graham]

Man makes God so God can make man

Man makes the devil so that he can understand,

why it is that every day,

everything always turns out this way.

- "

", Matthew Good Edited May 25, 2011 by Moonlight Graham

[betsy]

- "

", Matthew Good

Did Matthew Good come up with the explanation why the Bible has numerous declarations that's been supported by science to be facts?

Does he have anything to say about the specific Biblical facts - supported by science - that's posted on this thread?

Of course it is. It's a historical set of documents at the very least.

Historical set of documents, at the very least. So that means there's more to it. What else?

Considering all the posted Biblical facts - some of them pertain to origin, details that only Someone with intimate knowledge could know - which are all supported by science to be true, what can you say about that?

Edited May 25, 2011 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

Does he have anything to say about the specific Biblical facts - supported by science - that's posted on this thread?

It's sad when the faithful feel that only science can give their beliefs real authority. It kind of undermines the "faith" part.

[Moonlight Graham]

Did Matthew Good come up with the explanation why the Bible has numerous declarations that's been supported by science to be facts?

Does he have anything to say about the specific Biblical facts - supported by science - that's posted on this thread?

i'm sure he does. go to his website and ask him yourself.

Considering all the posted Biblical facts - some of them pertain to origin, details that only Someone with intimate knowledge could know - which are all supported by science to be true, what can you say about that?

I say if the last section of the Bible mapped out the human genome 4000 years before we even knew what a human genome was, then i'd be impressed and fall at the feet of God. Until then, illogical stories about ark's and parting seas, whose only explanations are that "some person wrote in a book that 'God did it'" doesn't impress or convince.

A being of higher power than us may likely exist, God may even exist, but that stuff is campfire stories. I don't need that stuff to be a loving and happy human being. Believe what you want.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Moonlight Graham

[MightyAC]

What about the endless list of bible stories, statements and assertions that are wrong? Like with the evil and immoral passages do you just pretend they don't exist?

For example, it can be proved conclusively that there is no physical evidence for a worldwide Flood, so that the event described in Genesis -- if related to a real event at all -- describes at best a large local flood that became a legend.

The bible refers to the earth as a flat circle despite the fact that ancient Greeks suspected it was spherical prior to the bible. The idea that the earth is suspended in nothing was also proposed by Greek philosopher Anaximander prior to the bible as well. However the bible contradicts itself here as in some verses it supported by pillars.

The bible also borrows incorrect Greek ideas, like when it claims embryos are created like milk curdling into cheese.

The bible claims the earth does not move and...well it does.

[betsy]

It's sad when the faithful feel that only science can give their beliefs real authority. It kind of undermines the "faith" part.

It's sad when thinking people choose to be obtuse - curtailing their thinking process - rather than address the issue head-on. Why do they feel threatened by this simple fact about the Bible?

I would understand the desperate resistance from fundamentalist atheists who refuse to acknowledge what obviously means the annihiliation of their belief.

But for confessed agnostics (skeptics)? You'd think they'd be more open-minded to explore.

Of course, since there are so numeorus "hybrids" or classifications of atheism/agnosticism.....I guess there's bound to be confusions as to which classification one really belongs.

The Bible is the Authoritative Book!

The "faith" part does not come from science supporting the authoritative facts in the Bible.

After all, if there is no faith....there wouldn't be any confidence at all.

The scientific facts in the Bible - detailed in this topic - are for those whose "faith" is in science.

Science is proving to you - unbelievers and scoffers of the Judeo-Christian belief - what's already been written in the Bible thousands of years ago!

Edited May 25, 2011 by betsy

[cybercoma]

Of course it is. It's a historical set of documents at the very least.

I think most historians would disagree. If someone were to reference the Bible in a historiography paper, I would immediately question their credentials. Unless of course they were talking about the Bible itself, the history of the Bible, or the history of people's relationships to the Bible. The Bible itself as a source, not so much.

[cybercoma]

It's sad when the faithful feel that only science can give their beliefs real authority. It kind of undermines the "faith" part.

Well that stabs right at the heart of it, doesn't it?

[cybercoma]

The scientific facts in the Bible - detailed in this topic - are for those whose "faith" is in science.

Science is proving to you - unbelievers and scoffers of the Judeo-Christian belief - what's already been written in the Bible thousands of years ago!

Christians are an awful group of people then for persecuting Galileo, when Copernican theories were already written in the Bible, or for allowing so many people to die of disease and infection when they already knew about the spread of bacteria and whatnot. Since all of these scientific facts already existed in the Bible, then I truly fear the Christians for not doing more for humanity when they already had all of this knowledge. So much for benevolence.

[betsy]

i'm sure he does. go to his website and ask him yourself.

I never even heard of this guy. You brought him here....therefore it's up to you to bring in his explanations.

That's all it is. Personal opinion. Big deal!

Besides, if that quote you gave is the best sample you could give....I say, what's new about his personal opinion?

I say if the last section of the Bible mapped out the human genome 4000 years before we even knew what a human genome was, then i'd be impressed and fall at the feet of God. Until then, illogical stories about ark's and parting seas, whose only explanations are that "some person wrote in a book that 'God did it'" doesn't impress or convince.

A being of higher power than us may likely exist, God may even exist, but that stuff is campfire stories. I don't need that stuff to be a loving and happy human being. Believe what you want.

Well...what can I say. It's hard to show something to someone who's got their eyes tightly shut.

Edited May 25, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

What about the endless list of bible stories, statements and assertions that are wrong? Like with the evil and immoral passages do you just pretend they don't exist?

Be specific.

For example, it can be proved conclusively that there is no physical evidence for a worldwide Flood, so that the event described in Genesis -- if related to a real event at all -- describes at best a large local flood that became a legend.

The bible refers to the earth as a flat circle despite the fact that ancient Greeks suspected it was spherical prior to the bible. The idea that the earth is suspended in nothing was also proposed by Greek philosopher Anaximander prior to the bible as well. However the bible contradicts itself here as in some verses it supported by pillars.

The bible also borrows incorrect Greek ideas, like when it claims embryos are created like milk curdling into cheese.

The bible claims the earth does not move and...well it does.

Be specific. Give the Bible passages you're referring to so we can discuss them.

[betsy]

Christians are an awful group of people then for persecuting Galileo, when Copernican theories were already written in the Bible, or for allowing so many people to die of disease and infection when they already knew about the spread of bacteria and whatnot. Since all of these scientific facts already existed in the Bible, then I truly fear the Christians for not doing more for humanity when they already had all of this knowledge. So much for benevolence.

So you aim for the humans. Not the Book! Stumped.

[cybercoma]

So you aim for the humans. Not the Book! Stumped.

I know the point is lost on you, but I don't actually think Christians are terrible humans. My point is that they never had the information to begin with because the nature of Oracles, or in this case the Bible, is that any vaguery can be made to look like a positive hit in hindsight. So yeah, I was aiming for the "Book", but you didn't get that far into the thought. Edited May 25, 2011 by cybercoma

[scouterjim]

Betsy, what happened to God? In the OT he was "If you don't worship me, I'll kill you and all your family! I demand to be worshipped! I need to be worshipped, so worship me OR ELSE!!!". In the NT, He is all rainbows, butterflies and bunnies. What happened?

[cybercoma]

Betsy, what happened to God? In the OT he was "If you don't worship me, I'll kill you and all your family! I demand to be worshipped! I need to be worshipped, so worship me OR ELSE!!!". In the NT, He is all rainbows, butterflies and bunnies. What happened?

He took his frustrations out on his son. Haven't you seen Passion of the Christ?

Edited May 25, 2011 by cybercoma

[betsy]

Betsy, what happened to God? In the OT he was "If you don't worship me, I'll kill you and all your family! I demand to be worshipped! I need to be worshipped, so worship me OR ELSE!!!". In the NT, He is all rainbows, butterflies and bunnies. What happened?

I used to think that the New Testament is "different" than the Old. But it's not. It's a common misconception I guess - but actually Jesus Himself was clear about that.

In the Old Testament, God gave the Law. In the New Testament, Jesus EXPANDED on those law.

[segnosaur]

What about the endless list of bible stories, statements and assertions that are wrong? Like with the evil and immoral passages do you just pretend they don't exist?

Be specific.

Mathew 24: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light (Ummm... the moon does not produce her own light. It reflects sunlight), and the stars shall fall from heaven (umm.. no, stars do not "fall from the sky". A star is quite a bit more massive than the earth, not to mention millions of miles away. No chance of them "falling" Shouldn't the invisible sky daddy know something about astronomy?)

Revelation 7:1... I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth (Also: See Matthew 4:8)...the earth is round. It doesn't have "corners"... nor can people see all parts of the earth from one vantage point.

Matthew 13: Jebus claims that the Mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds. But its not. Yeah, it was only a parable, but don't you think the son of god would actually know his biology?

Numbers 1: Says that there are over 600,000 Israelites. Yet only a couple of hundred years earlier there were only around 70. That's a heck of a lot of begating.

Leviticus 11: claims that rabbits chew their cud. But they don't. Only ruminants do. You'd figure an all-knowing creator would know a little about the biology of the creatures he created

Leviticus 11: Bats are birds. Hmmm... biologists recognize them as mammals. Guess god doesn't know his physiology

Then of course you have the things that supposedly happened in the bible, but for which there is no actual physical record:

Joshua 10: God makes "the sun stand still"... ok, ignoring the little problems with astronomy (like the fact that the Sun is always in motion throughout the day), how come there are no recorded incidences of the Sun stopping in any other culture?

There were no mentions of the massacre of first born sons by Harod made by contemporary historians, even though that would have been a quite notable event. Same with the "dead rising from their graves".

And then there are all the contradictions.

Matthew 27: Judas hung himself. Acts 1: he tripped and fell, "bursting asunder"

Genisis 1: God creates animals first, then man. Geneis 2: God creates man first, then animals. You'd figure he'd be able to keep the order of creation straight.

Luke 3: The paternal grandfather of Jebus is Heli. Matthew 1: The paternal grandfather is Jacob. (Hey, maybe they had same sex marriage in those days.)

[segnosaur]

I used to think that the New Testament is "different" than the Old. But it's not. It's a common misconception I guess - but actually Jesus Himself was clear about that.

In the Old Testament, God gave the Law. In the New Testament, Jesus EXPANDED on those law.

Except that if its an "expansion" of the laws, then the old testament laws still exist and must be followed.

From 1 Chronicals 16: Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant.

From Psalms 119: Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

From Luke 16: It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

So, looks like whatever "rules" that are in the old testament must be followed, since they are "everlasting" and "endureth for ever".

Oh, but don't worry, you also have

Galations 3: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Hmmmm... so parts of the bible say "Old testament laws must be observed forever", and another part says "Oh, don't worry about those old laws"..... could it be, a contradiction? (Well, of course it is, but I'm sure you'll dismiss it.)

[segnosaur]

The Noah story is ridiculous. A human can't gather 2 of every animal, that would take a million years, he'd have to dig into the earth to get smaller insects etc. How would he know which is male & female?

But let's suppose he has a massive ark the size of a massive zoo. How does this guy and his wife keep them all alive? Feed them? Keep the mosquitos from flying away? Great tall tale, that's all it is.

I think the bigger question is....

Who on Noah's ark had AIDS? And who had Herpes? And who had Ebola? And who had measles? And who had Mononucleosis? And who had Leprosy?

After all, some of these are pretty serious diseases, and in many cases the virus is primarily transmitted from person to person and is incapable of surviving outside of a host's body for any significant length of time.

[segnosaur]

FACT: Nothing holds up Earth. It is affected by gravity.

Yet in Psalm 18 it refers to "The foundations of the world". Ummm... the earth doesn't have a "foundation".

FACT: The earth is round.

Yet in the new testament the devil brings Jebus to the top of a mountain to see "all the kingdoms of the world". If the earth is round, he wouldn't be able to do so.

FACT: There is an incalculable number of stars.

Except we can calculate the number of stars.

300 Sextillion.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/01/the-estimated-number-of-stars-in-the-universe-just-tripled/

FACT: Mountains and trenches in the deep blue sea.

Why exactly is that "proof" of anything? I'm sure sailors have had to navigate around islands in the ocean for millenium. Knowing that the sea floor is varied would be something that would be considered common knowledge.

Kind of like saying "The sky is blue". Yeah, its true, but knowing that fact doesn't mean you have some sort of special knowledge.

FACT: Noah’s Ark and Ship Building

The biggest wooden ship ever built was 300 feet, and it had to be pumped out constantly. Noah's ark would have been 50% bigger than that... you really think it would be sea worthy?

FACT: “Many of the great scientists of the past who founded and developed the key disciplines of science were creationists!”

Ummmm... so? We've really only been using the "scientific method" in the western world for the past few centuries. The fact that some scientists believed in "the bible" prior to that is not surprising, when we hadn't really built up a significant degree of scientific knowledge to understand the world.

Oh, and Newton was both a creationist and an alchemist. Just because Newton discovered the laws of gravity does that mean he's correct in being able to convert lead into gold? Of course not.

FACT: The Universe Must Have Had a Beginning

Why is that proof of anything? Almost all religions have had creation myths of some type.

FACT:: Existence of ocean currents

Something sailors would have already been familiar with.

FACT: SCIENCE REMAINS BAFFLED!

There are a lot of unanswered questions that science doesn't know the answer to. That doesn't mean the bible holds the source of the answers.

FACT: PROPHECIES HAVE COME TRUE!

Nope, they haven't.

Strange how "prophecies" tend to come true only after the fact, when people can look at the results and distort the wording of any such prophecies to fit their observation.

[betsy]

Except that if its an "expansion" of the laws, then the old testament laws still exist and must be followed.

From 1 Chronicals 16: Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant.

From Psalms 119: Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

From Luke 16: It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

So, looks like whatever "rules" that are in the old testament must be followed, since they are "everlasting" and "endureth for ever".

Oh, but don't worry, you also have

Galations 3: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Hmmmm... so parts of the bible say "Old testament laws must be observed forever", and another part says "Oh, don't worry about those old laws"..... could it be, a contradiction? (Well, of course it is, but I'm sure you'll dismiss it.)

This is the interpretation in the study.

Galatians 3:10-13

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

As many as are of the works of the law refers to all who rely upon obedience to the Mosaic Law as the means of winning divine approval (salvation). To be under a curse is to be subject to God's wrath and condemnation. Continuethis explained by to do, which means "to obey."

The recipient of divine wrath is every one who, believing salvation can be obtained by meritorious works, fails to obey the law perfectly. Complete obedience to the law is impossible for sinful man (Acts 15:10; James 2:10). All, then, who attempt to secure salvation by this route are doomed.

The last part of this verse means, "He who is just because of his faith shall live," that is, forever.

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

This verse declares that the law is a matter of performance, not of faith; it is a principle of doing, not believing.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The curse of the law, from which Christ hath redeemed (delivered) us, is that of verse 10, incurred because of incomplete obedience to the law. Being made a curse for us means "by becoming accursed for us."

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The word that appears twice in this verse, identifying two reasons "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law": (1) that Gentiles might receive the blessing of Abraham; (2) that believers might receive...the Spirit (i.e., the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). This implies that when one is justified, he is at the same time divinely granted the Holy Spirit.

-------------

Clearly the verses refer to the Mosaic Law.

Aside from the 10 Commandments given to Moses, there were other strict laws given by God.

These other strict laws - dietary, circumcision, worshipping, offerings etc., - were given particularly to the Jews because God had chosen them to be His people. They were supposed to be a holy nation. He had a purpose for them.

There is no contradiction. As the New Testament expanded (and explained), clearly what we (the Gentiles) are being told to disregard are the other laws that were meant specifically for the Jews.

In ACTS 15 (which is about The Council at Jerusalem), there was a confusion regarding the Gentiles.

ACTS 15:1-2

1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

So they went to Jerusalem and there was the council regarding this matter.

ACTS 15:10-11

10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Study interpretation: The primary speakers at this conference, often called the Jerusalem council, were Peter, Paul, Barnabas, and James. Peter begins by relating how God had clearly saved Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him apart from any works of the Law.

In fact, Peter acknowledges that not only do the Gentiles not need to become like Jews to be saved, but conversely we, the Jews, need to be saved as they.

Edited May 25, 2011 by betsy

[cybercoma]

segnosaur, your patience in putting together a response to all of that is pretty amazing.