game of thrones

[Black Dog]

You know what was lame? The battle between Stannis and the Boltons. One minute he's on a empty plain, totally surrounded by cavalry, the next he's...in a forest somewhere? What?

[Black Dog]

Sansa's storyline only went to further Ramsay is the show's biggest heel. Sure we knew he was evil, but now he's the most evil. It would have been cool to see her rule Winterfell but that would have meant that Stannis would have to have won the battle. Obviously that storyline was a dead end.

Point was, she could have shown some actual agency in winning her freedom beyond picking a lock. Maybe Theon grabs Myranda and Sansa plugs her with the corkscrew or they toss her over together.

[Bonam]

Sansa got the looks, Arya got the agency. That's how it worked out for the Stark girls.

[-1=e^ipi]

You know what was lame? The battle between Stannis and the Boltons. One minute he's on a empty plain, totally surrounded by cavalry, the next he's...in a forest somewhere? What?

There were forests nearby. Medieval battles can get very messy / disorganized. He probably fought his way to the forest.

[Boges]

The budget for a proper battle was spent putting Lena Headley's head on the body of a woman with bigger tits.

[kimmy]

The budget for a proper battle was spent putting Lena Headley's head on the body of a woman with bigger tits.

Bigger boobs or not, Lena's real body is way hotter than the one they digitally grafted under her head. I'd say they put her head on the body of someone with a more motherly body rather than Lena's real body, which is just too perfect for a medieval mom of three who gets little exercise beyond lifting wine goblets.

Realism is hardly the show's focus, of course. I've read that Lena is actually a shy and reserved person, which is probably the real reason they used a body double rather than have her walk naked in front of hundreds of cursing, jeering extras.

The Mother Sparrow actress said of the body double:

The identity of Headey's stunt double remains a mystery, but co-star Hannah Waddington who we saw trailing behind the disgraced Lannister repeatedly calling "Shame!" recently told Vulture: "Our fantastic body double was just so brave. I had a lot of respect for her."

-k

[kimmy]

Sansa got the looks, Arya got the agency. That's how it worked out for the Stark girls.

What I had assumed they were building to is that Arya got the talent for stabbing things, while Sansa got the talent for "soft power". That looked like what they were aiming for, at least until about halfway through this season.

Sansa's storyline only went to further Ramsay is the show's biggest heel. Sure we knew he was evil, but now he's the most evil. It would have been cool to see her rule Winterfell but that would have meant that Stannis would have to have won the battle. Obviously that storyline was a dead end.

What else was her out? killing Ramsay? perhaps but it's not like that's going to suddenly make her a "player".

-win Ramsay's trust, replace Miranda as Ramsay's non-boring love interest. We saw Margaery Tyrrell manage this with the similarly psychotic Joffrey. Margaery was Sansa's friend and role-model... it doesn't seem unreasonable to think Sansa could have taken notes. Sansa also spent enough time living with a monster already that she needn't have caved in at the first discovery that Ramsay wasn't actually The Kindest Man in Westeros.

-exploit Ramsay's insecurity as Roose's real heir. Exploit his jealousy over his soon-to-be baby brother to turn him against Roose. They spent about 3 seconds exploring this angle, before completely dropping it and never revisiting it again. She could have played it up by hinting that she was already pregnant (which she could be ... ick) and saying "our son" a lot. "Our son isn't going to grow up a Snow." Have Ramsay deal with Roose and Fat Momma Frey before Roose changes his mind about Ramsay being the heir.

-with Roose and Fat Momma Frey gone, and Ramsay as the new lord of Winterfell, Ramsay is new to the world of politics and intrigue. "Ramsay, we should bring Lord Baelish back to Winterfell to let him know that we still honor his agreement with your father to be team-up buddies with the Vale." Then she is re-united with Littlefinger, and they can engineer a plot to get rid of Ramsay and unveil Littlefinger's shiny writ declaring him Warden of the North. Possibly something involving the bulk of the northern bannermen (that Roose summoned to fight Stannis) turning against the Boltons in favor of the surviving Stark heir.

There's no reason why they couldn't have gone in that direction, as it was far more in keeping with the direction they had previously charged and in keeping with Sansa's own history of having already endured a psychopath. Instead, following the wedding episode, they said "screw that. Fuck the last season and a half of character development, let's just have her forget that whole plan she made with Littlefinger. Let's have her whining for Theon to rescue her."

-k

[Black Dog]

Bigger boobs or not, Lena's real body is way hotter than the one they digitally grafted under her head. I'd say they put her head on the body of someone with a more motherly body rather than Lena's real body, which is just too perfect for a medieval mom of three who gets little exercise beyond lifting wine goblets.

Realism is hardly the show's focus, of course. I've read that Lena is actually a shy and reserved person, which is probably the real reason they used a body double rather than have her walk naked in front of hundreds of cursing, jeering extras.

Well, that and she's pregnant at the moment.

[Mighty AC]

[Mighty AC]

Bigger boobs or not, Lena's real body is way hotter than the one they digitally grafted under her head. I'd say they put her head on the body of someone with a more motherly body rather than Lena's real body, which is just too perfect for a medieval mom of three who gets little exercise beyond lifting wine goblets.

This is the body double, Rebecca Van Cleave. It would take some serious courage to do that scene, but roughly 1,000 women applied for the role.

[Boges]

This is the body double, Rebecca Van Cleave. It would take some serious courage to do that scene, but roughly 1,000 women applied for the role.

Any more demeaning than a porno? She got food thrown at her.

It was a hard scene to watch, probably because I don't like food fights. Not harder than the Shireen scene, I actually fast forwarded right through that.

That scene, I would hope, shows Cersei how formidable the FM actually is and takes her down several hundred pegs. She's probably got more to worry about after she finds out that her daughter was murdered.

Perhaps FrankenMountain will go to Dorne next.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Boges

[-1=e^ipi]

There's no reason why they couldn't have gone in that direction

What about being consistent with the books?

They only have 10 episodes per season, so they have to make compromises. They probably set up the wedding arrangement because they wanted to give more time to Ramsay & Bolton this season to introduce them more to the audience and explain their conflicts. They needed to do something with Sansa so it was easier to have her to go marry Ramsay rather than introduce the completely new character of Jeyne Poole. This also sets up next season to focus more on politics within the Vale and the Iron Islands (which we didn't really see this season); plus we will see more of Bran (+ children of the forest) and maybe Oldtown (as Sam is going to it).

[-1=e^ipi]

Actually, this season took place primarily in 6 locations: King's Landing, Winterfell, the Wall, Dorne, Bravos and Mareen. This seasons choice of cities in the introduction was unusually relevant (I think by default they have to have King's Landing, Winterfell and the Wall, even if they weren't very relevant in previous seasons). So where will most of the next season take place? Surely the Iron Islands, the Vale and Oldtown have to become relevant next season.

[-1=e^ipi]

Apparently they are looking for the following actor for Season 6:

Pirate, man in his 40’s to late 50’s. He’s “an infamous pirate who has terrorized seas all around the world. Cunning, ruthless, with a touch of madness.” He’s a dangerous-looking man. A very good part this season.

So if we are lucky, we will get Johnny Depp?

[Black Dog]

What about being consistent with the books?

They already threw that out the second they sent Sansa to Winterfell.

They only have 10 episodes per season, so they have to make compromises. They probably set up the wedding arrangement because they wanted to give more time to Ramsay & Bolton this season to introduce them more to the audience and explain their conflicts. They needed to do something with Sansa so it was easier to have her to go marry Ramsay rather than introduce the completely new character of Jeyne Poole.

The point kimmy and I are making (if I can be so presumptuous as to speak for her) was simply this: what was the point of making a big deal out of Sansa's supposed transformation from doormat to empowered player in the Game of Thrones only to continue to use her as a doormat? They could have sent her to Winterfell and married her to Ramsay and still give her some agency and something else to do other than get raped and wait to be saved.

[Mighty AC]

what was the point of making a big deal out of Sansa's supposed transformation from doormat to empowered player in the Game of Thrones only to continue to use her as a doormat?

When did they make a big deal about her transformation? The candle and her escape is the active start of her transformation.

[Bonam]

What about being consistent with the books?

They only have 10 episodes per season, so they have to make compromises. They probably set up the wedding arrangement because they wanted to give more time to Ramsay & Bolton this season to introduce them more to the audience and explain their conflicts. They needed to do something with Sansa so it was easier to have her to go marry Ramsay rather than introduce the completely new character of Jeyne Poole. This also sets up next season to focus more on politics within the Vale and the Iron Islands (which we didn't really see this season); plus we will see more of Bran (+ children of the forest) and maybe Oldtown (as Sam is going to it).

Books haven't touched any of that yet and I'd doubt the next one is coming out before season 6.

I wonder if they'll add in the whole extra storyline with Jon Connington and whatnot from Dance with Dragons into the show...

[Bonam]

The point kimmy and I are making (if I can be so presumptuous as to speak for her) was simply this: what was the point of making a big deal out of Sansa's supposed transformation from doormat to empowered player in the Game of Thrones only to continue to use her as a doormat? They could have sent her to Winterfell and married her to Ramsay and still give her some agency and something else to do other than get raped and wait to be saved.

I don't think they ever did make a "big deal of it". The fact that littlefinger gave her a speech doesn't a transformation make. She's still the same helpless girl as always. Her only act of "agency" was lying for littlefinger (a man whose power she was in) in front of the eyrie nobles.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Bonam

[overthere]

George Martin has been involved in the production of GOT from the beginning and still is involved.

I doubt that the story line in the TV series deviates or will deviate in any material way from the written material. Where it does deviate or seem to take a new direction with fresh material or characters, perhaps we are just getting an advance copy of Book 6.

I think Book 6 will come out just before SEason 6. After all, the people involved have a profit motive and this is not their first rodeo!

[-1=e^ipi]

They already threw that out the second they sent Sansa to Winterfell.

They don't have to be 100% consistent with the books, but they can't deviate too far. And they only have 10 episodes per season so can't show anything. Sending Sansa to winterfell was just convenient since then they don't need Jeyne Poole. There are other merged characters in the TV series such as Gendry.

[kimmy]

The point kimmy and I are making (if I can be so presumptuous as to speak for her) was simply this: what was the point of making a big deal out of Sansa's supposed transformation from doormat to empowered player in the Game of Thrones only to continue to use her as a doormat? They could have sent her to Winterfell and married her to Ramsay and still give her some agency and something else to do other than get raped and wait to be saved.

I am with you.

When did they make a big deal about her transformation? The candle and her escape is the active start of her transformation.

Nonsense. The candle and the escape are the active start of her being the same spineless dipshit that she was in season 1.

The only signs of growth she's had as a character were when she first off lied to protect Littlefinger, at a point in time when she could have instead outed Littlefinger and pleaded for the aid of the nobles at the Eyrie, and later on when she agrees to proceed on to Winterfell in cooperation with Littlefinger, apparently deciding that avenging her family is worth the pain she'll endure.

But they hit Ctrl-Z on that.

-k

[kimmy]

Honestly, if all they ever plan to do with Sansa is put her into dangerous predicaments to create suspense, then I hope doesn't ever emerge from that snow-bank she apparently fell into.

There would be much better uses of their precious screen time than carrying on this Perils Of Pauline bullshit any longer.

-k

[overthere]

C'mon, don't be so hard on Sansa- she is still a teenager and learning how to change from being a wimpy coddled princess into a leader.

It's tough to accomplish much when you're a captive sex toy in the hands of a complete psycho.

Before that she was a pawn in Littlefingers plans, before that a hostage to Cersei, before that a child. She has managed to stay alive, no small feat when you are a Stark.

Her leap from the wall may be more than symbolic.

She is moving on. Her companion is a dickless coward, but long journeys start with a single step....

[kimmy]

I'm not being hard on Sansa, I'm being hard on the writers.

I mean, she's been a major part of this show for 5 seasons, and has yet to evolve as a character. Finally, toward the end of last season and the start of this season, they teased us that yes, she's finally going to be a player rather than a pawn. And now she's back to square one.

If Bonam is right-- that she always has been a helpless loser and she always will be-- then they should stop wasting so much screen time with her. Wallpaper her-- push her to the background-- and focus on people who are actually doing something interesting. They could find something for Varys or Littlefinger to be doing.

If Mighty AC is right-- that jumping off the roof with Theon was the start of a transformation-- then what is she transforming into? A frozen meat Popsicle? She's decided to flee off into the wilderness, into the snow, with no food, no weapons, no shelter, inadequate clothing, inadequate footwear, no survival skills aside from needlepoint, and her only aid is ... a mentally incapacitated imbecile. Bold strategy, Sansa! Let's see if it pays off!

How it should proceed: she and Theon flee toward Castle Black, hoping that Jon Snow will protect them. Ramsay, recalling that he told Sansa that Snow is the Lord Commander there, takes his riders and sets off in pursuit. They catch Sansa and Theon within the hour. Ramsay tortures Theon to death while Sansa is forced to watch. They take Sansa back to Winterfell where she is incarcerated in a cage to experience a whole new definition of sadism, that thankfully we the viewer never have to see because the show-runners have decided to follow more interesting characters. A plan this stupid should, if this show is as "gritty and realistic" as they want us to think, lead to utter failure.

How it will instead proceed: Sansa and Theon, through blind luck, stumble into Brienne and Poddrick. Brienne is somehow able to lead them to safety, perhaps she dispatches a couple of Bolton scouts. Sansa asks Brienne to take them to Castle Black, the last place Ramsay would think to look. Ramsay and his men are inexplicably unable to figure out where they have gone. They hear of Snow's death before they reach Castle Black. Sansa wails. She only finds out that Snow survived so that she can lose him again. They change course, and seek refuge with some local Stark supporters, where they learn that Nymphadora Tonks is also hiding out, with Rickon Stark too. That takes us to the end of season 6.

I can't even see what the point of this whole story line was. Earlier, it seemed as if it was tailor-made to finally give Sansa a chance to evolve as a character. If that was the intent, they failed miserably.

What else did it accomplish? They built up Ramsay and Roose as even bigger villains. Was that even necessary? They were already the most evil mofos on the show. And they're the only major characters on the show who have yet to suffer a single setback. Literally everything they have done on the show has worked out perfectly for them. About the only thing that's gone wrong for them in the entire time we've known them was Miranda getting thrown off the wall, and you know Ramsay won't be shedding any tears over that.

What else did they accomplish with this story arc? Theon Greyjoy slightly redeems himself? If that was supposed to be the big emotional payoff from this storyline, I think the writers have vastly overestimated the degree to which anybody gives a crap about Theon.

-k

[-1=e^ipi]

How it should proceed: she and Theon flee toward Castle Black, hoping that Jon Snow will protect them.

Or they go to the iron islands, or they go to the vale, or they go to karhold or something (northern allies) or they go to the river lands (harrenhall, Tulleys, Reeds). They can go in pretty much any direction and will find allies that can protect them.

They catch Sansa and Theon within the hour. Ramsay tortures Theon to death while Sansa is forced to watch.

That would be extremely pointless. It wouldn't really advance Theon's plot, and it would make Sansa's plot too divergent from the books.

I can't even see what the point of this whole story line was. What else did it accomplish?

1. It allows them to avoid creating the new character of Jeyne Poole, which helps save time for a series that only has 10 episodes per season. It also gives Sansa and the Boltons more scenes.

2. It allows for a smoother transition between season 5 (which concentrates on Northern politics and the Stannis-Bolton conflict) and season 6 (which will probably concentrate on Vale and Iron Island politics).

3. It arguably gives Petyr Baelish an excuse to declare war on Roose Bolton later on.

4. It will create conflict between Roose and Ramsey since it was Ramsey's fault for mistreating his bride that she ran away (after Roose arranged such a politically important marriage).