US burn Koran, 14 killed in retaliation

[bush_cheney2004]

....And this is a problem for us to worry about also, because our present government is stupid enough to just march lock-step with U.S. foreign policy...so, if the next mob goes on a rampage looking for Americans, Canadian soldiers could be just as easily targeted.

Oh no...not that...don't they know that the Canadians patrolling the streets, cordoning off houses, and shooting civilians would never burn a Qu'ran?

[Scotty]

They've got American soldiers patrolling their streets in armored vehicles, they get searched when they get to a checkpoint, homes are searched, bombs are dropped from American drones flying overhead, but for some reason you don't think they know who Americans are or connect the Occupation with the story of the Quran burning!

The point is that this book burning took place on the other side of the world. I suppose I could see if someone had plunked one down on the road in front of them and set it on fire they'd be indignant about that, but really, what the hell difference does it make if someone burns a book on the other side of the planet? And even if they're too stupid to differentiate between some local preacher - and god knows they've got enough loco imams - and the American soldiers you'd at least think they could tell the difference between Americans and the UN.

And this is a problem for us to worry about also, because our present government is stupid enough to just march lock-step with U.S. foreign policy...so, if the next mob goes on a rampage looking for Americans, Canadian soldiers could be just as easily targeted.

Most likely, unlike the gurkas, they'd shoot back and kill a lot of drooling fanatics.

[WIP]

These killings were about the burning of one Koran.

I know, it's legal to do it, just like offensive cartoons, but does that make it right to do it? For what it's worth, I canceled my membership at Center For Inquiry when they decided to join in on the "Blasphemy Days" celebrations. I don't believe in any gods, but I also don't agree with deliberately trying to be offensive for no reason. So, I make no distinction between offensive pictures of Jesus or Muhammed. Our culture becomes more coarse and vulgar over time, and the fact that being offensive and outrageous provides 15 minutes of fame is a large part of the reason.

This isn't the first incident of Muslims rioting and/or killing people over insults to Islam (ie: drawings of Mohammad, burning a Koran). I'm not sure where "all Muslims" were "condemned" for these killings, however. Seems to me a lot of people saw this for exactly what it was. No excuses made. Your "facts" prove that they went out looking for Americans to take their revenge on -- for someone they didn't even know, not acting in any kind of official manner. When they couldn't find them, they just took their revenge on whoever they could find. According to your "facts." Burning a book. Revenge on people. And you seem to think that the ones taking revenge on people are the ones who deserve defending.

It's not a matter of defending, it's a matter of making an attempt to understand how other people think and see the world around them. Even if you regard them as enemies to be destroyed, Sun Tzu said centuries ago that you must first know your enemy. The problem with America is that successive governments have used the military to enforce their commercial empire, while being totally oblivious to the differences. Thirty years ago, during the arms-for-hostages deal that Reagan was putting together, he had his NSC staffers present a Bible and a chocolate cake to Khomeini....can't get much dumber than that, and successive invasions and occupations have shown the same ignorance of likely consequences....Rummies "they'll welcome us as liberators" being another one on the highlight reel.

More excuses. They were protesting a Koran being burned. They didn't kill anyone when the news about the "trophy photos/killings" occurred. You speak of "facts," and then you project that these riots, these killings, were really about something else. Making excuses for their behavior. You then project that MORE of these types of killings likely go on. More excuses, based on your perception of what might go on.

This could be a matter of reaching a tipping point. There were riots after 7 boys were killed out gathering firewood, but just because they didn't gather a large enough mob together to invade a UN compound, you seem to think that they were okay with it. Previous riots didn't have the organizing capabilities of these mullahs mentioned in the story...so there's your Muslim connection. But, if it was possible to interview participants in the mob violence, their personal reasons for being there would have more to do with the Occupation and the Afghan puppet government than with religious sacrilege.

Note that he was sentenced. It's not something that's condoned.

How many have flown under the radar and gone unpunished? Recall all of the outrage over the wikileaks video that was released last year. As far as I know, no one has been prosecuted, and the only legal action has been against the one who leaked the information and the one who made it available for everyone to see. Just like the prisoner-abuse stories that started after a few pics were emailed to the wrong people...it wasn't the only time it happened, and later wikileaks cables revealed that they were following orders from their superiors....who went unpunished!

[Wilber]

The point being that the pastor has killed no one, while thousands died at the hands of fanatics already "incited" to commit murder regardless of burning Qu'rans. Ditto those killed in recent protest turned to murderous attacks.

The religious nutbars who were incited by your religious nutbar and in turn incited the mob didn't kill anyone so I guess they have no responsibility either. Beside, why shouldn't they have the freedom of speech as an American?

Most Vietnam Vets were doing their duty and protecting each other, not the Bible.

I thought they were protecting freedoms.

[bush_cheney2004]

The religious nutbars who were incited by your religious nutbar and in turn incited the mob didn't kill anyone so I guess they have no responsibility either. Beside, why shouldn't they have the freedom of speech as an American?

Freedom of speech does not include murder. The protests were not unusual at all, having been held many times before.

I thought they were protecting freedoms.

They were...still are. You gotta problem with that? Sorry, that includes the freedom for a woman to walk down the street without causing her own assault.

[Wilber]

When other people are being subjected to the same type of actions, when others are expected to have to deal with it, when the people doing the provocation aren't being held 'responsible' for any possible consequences, when other people aren't expected not to burn the flag or the Bible or draw cartoons of Jesus etc., when no one else's feelings are taken into account, it's walking on eggshells to expect differently when it comes to Muslims. People have to deal with "deliberate provocation" all the time. To expect Muslims alone to be exempt from it is walking on eggshells.

Furthermore, there have been people complaining about "all Muslims" being blamed for this that or the other thing, but there's been nary a peep about the title of this thread: the "US" burned the Koran according to the title. Couldn't be further from the truth. But no objection to that. We are "infidels" in the eyes of Muslims. Non-believers. They don't respect our religion, but we're expected to respect theirs. Again, walking on eggshells. Can't upset them, but the rest of the world is fair game.

Would you go out and deliberately commit some act that you knew could get someone else killed just to stroke your own ego or advance your personal agenda? Would you not expect to be taken to task for doing so? Forget the Muslims, we can only control and be responsible for our own actions.

You are right about the title of this thread and it should be changed. The US did nothing of the sort.

[Wilber]

Freedom of speech does not include murder. The protests were not unusual at all, having been held many times before.

Evidently it does in some countries.

They were...still are. You gotta problem with that? Sorry, that includes the freedom for a woman to walk down the street without causing her own assault.

Never said women weren't free to do so or that they are responsible if they are. I do say they have some control over the odds of it happening, just as all of us have some control over whether we become the victims of all sorts of crimes. Leaving your doors unlocked or valuables in sight or unattended, not shredding personal information before you throw it out. You name it. I wasn't aware that no women were ever assaulted while walking down the street in the Land of the Free.

[Jack Weber]

I wasn't aware there were that many Protestant churches that actually bought into Sola Scriptura? Has all of Augustine's warnings gone out the window now?

Anything based on the Lutheran or Calvinistic tradition use the 5 Solas as the basis of faith...

[bush_cheney2004]

Evidently it does in some countries.

Then why are you blaming a pastor in sunny Florida?

Never said women weren't free to do so or that they are responsible if they are. I do say they have some control over the odds of it happening, just as all of us have some control over whether we become the victims of all sorts of crimes.

Ergo...nobody should work for the UN in Afghanistan?

Leaving your doors unlocked or valuables in sight or unattended, not shredding personal information before you throw it out. You name it. I wasn't aware that no women were ever assaulted while walking down the street in the Land of the Free.

...or in Canada, but that really isn't the point either way. The pastor was not assaulted or murdered.

[Shwa]

The facts are that millions of South Vietnamese and others resisted and fought the communists for many years, instead of rolling over like you obviously would have done.

Yes, and you have a nice shiney black granite wall in Washington to show for all that effort and expense. Nice consolation prize.

I don't have a moral position..that is your quaint specialty. How's it working for 'ya?

No moral position, then it all of this shouldn't matter to you. But yet it does. Huh. Whadday know, more bullshit.

Because I am an infidel....it might make them angrier than dropping laser guided bombs on their houses.

Did you foam at the mouth a little when you typed that out?

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, and you have a nice shiney black granite wall in Washington to show for all that effort and expense. Nice consolation prize.

You mean like this one in Canada:

North Wall

No moral position, then it all of this shouldn't matter to you. But yet it does. Huh. Whadday know, more bullshit.

It doesn't matter to me as a Mighty Moral Struggle From the North..land of Hate Speech Laws and other such nonsense, except when it comes to Americans...then it's open season.

Did you foam at the mouth a little when you typed that out?

<Folks...insert your own joke here..LOL!>

[DogOnPorch]

<Folks...insert your own joke here..LOL!>

Q: How many light bulbs does it take to screw in a Shwa?

A: Just two...but you can certainly try the nostrils and ears.

Edited April 4, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Shwa]

Since pointing out the absurdity of it all is aimed at y'all, glad you can go for it.

Well there's the rub - did you intend to protest the generalization of the US by way of a generalization of Muslims? Or did you just get caught doing the same thing you protest about? Because either way, it is absurd.

So what if it applies equally to Christians? I said we are under no obligation to respect other's beliefs, that there's a difference between "respect" and tolerance. So I equate lack of respect with infidel because of the way/context in which it is used. And I say, so what if that's how anyone from any religion feels about another religion? I repeat. We are under no obligation to respect other's beliefs. There are many beliefs from all religions that I don't respect. So if that pastor showed disrespect for Islam, so what?

And in what "way/context" is the western word "infidel" applied to Muslims as a whole by you a demonstration of their disrespect for "our" religion? The only "way/context" is you and your understanding and it is this sort of thing that leads me to believe that you got caught generalizing about Muslims.

Yeah, basically you did say that. Way to avoid responding to it though.

You need to pay more attention to what is written and less time on what you want something to mean while you try and read between the lines. Like I said, poor form. To refresh your memory:

...But what is bad for business is inciting "them" to want to kill more of our soldiers, UN workers, aid workers, peaceful religioous people, moderates, etc.

Do you understand this in the "way/context" of us being over to help the people rather than strictly there to defend "our freedoms?"

I have no idea what you're on about here. What in God's name do "battle plans" have to do with walking on eggshells, not exercising our freedoms, because of the sensibilities of others? But again, you seem to be saying "don't say anything to piss them off or we'll all pay the price." You can deny that you said that, too, but it's exactly what you're saying. Piss off some Muslims, prepare for riots and loss of life.

You know what battle plans are right? The things that, should they get into enemy hands, put our soldiers at a higher risk. If being careful and prudent are no longer concerns, why not throw caution to the wind?

I'm assuming you mean that banning flag burning was close to being the law. Now I ask you, if it had been made a law in the U.S., would that mean the rest of the world couldn't/shouldn't burn our flag?? That they would be criticized if they did? Of course not. No one cared about our sensibilities when they burned our flag. It was their right to do so, and plenty of people have exercised that right.

And what possible reason could there be to enact a law that bans the burning of the flag. I am saying "feelings."

You

really have to wonder?? Because they know better. They know no one would come to their defense. No one would make excuses for them.

Really? That sounds like respect to me.

Yeah, I'm sure that will happen; unless American troops happen to be among the civilians they target and kill.

If they want to duke it out, then that is their problem. If some retard in Florida wants to exercise his Constitutional Right to free speech and burn a Koran in an anti-Islam protest that imperils troops, civilians and all the work accomplished over there so far then I ask, what are we doing there in the first place?

Petraeus: Quran burning poses security threat in Afghanistan

A recent Florida church's burning of the Quran has created an "additional serious security challenge" in Afghanistan, warns Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. military commander in Afghanistan.

"Every security force leader's worst nightmare is being confronted by essentially a mob, if you will, especially one that can be influenced by individuals that want to incite violence, who want to try to hijack passions, in this case, perhaps understandable passions," he told the Wall Street Journal. "Obviously it's an additional serious security challenge in a country that faces considerable security challenges."

[Shady]

On the contrary. It would likely result in all Western or Christian people and institutions in the Muslim Middle East being wiped out.

Theyre already being wiped out. At least in areas of the middle east where one is allowed to be a Christian. Pakistan for example.

[Shwa]

You mean like this one in Canada:

North Wall

No I mean like this one in Washington.

It doesn't matter to me as a Mighty Moral Struggle From the North..land of Hate Speech Laws and other such nonsense, except when it comes to Americans...then it's open season.

Which is all you can see, in generalities. Right? And you whine when others pass it right back to you. Huh. How weak.

<...insert your own joke here..LOL!>

Is that what your wife says to you in bed?

Edited April 4, 2011 by Shwa

[Shwa]

Theyre already being wiped out. At least in areas of the middle east where one is allowed to be a Christian. Pakistan for example.

Yeah, and here are some more places: Middle East Council of Churches

[DogOnPorch]

BC2004: <...insert your own joke here..LOL!>

Is that what your wife says to you in bed?

We thought it was what you had chosen as a tramp-stamp.

[Wilber]

Then why are you blaming a pastor in sunny Florida?

The pastor in Florida should restrict himself to what goes on in Florida.

Ergo...nobody should work for the UN in Afghanistan?

In lieu of the actions of people like this dickhead, probably not and as Shwa asks, why then are our troops there?

..or in Canada, but that really isn't the point either way. The pastor was not assaulted or murdered.

Unfortunately not as fourteen others were in his place.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Wilber

[Shwa]

Shwa you know I respect you and others I debate on this forum I don't always agree with. On this one though all I am saying is its too easy to American bash. It does not deal with the issue.

No, American bashing or equating the acts of one lunatic in Florida as representative of "America" is a useless exercise. However, responding to it all the while generalizing about another is an equally, if not worse, exercise.

[bush_cheney2004]

The pastor in Florida should restrict himself to what goes on in Florida.

He did.

In lieu of the actions of people like this dickhead, probably not and as Shwa asks, why then are our troops there?

Ask your own "dickheads"?

Unfortunately not as fourteen others were in his place.

The pastor was not an actor in any of the murders. Florida is not Afghanistan.

[bush_cheney2004]

No I mean like this one in Washington.

Typical...ours is much nicer!

Which is all you can see, in generalities. Right? And you whine when others pass it right back to you. Huh. How weak.

Your morals are irrelevant, even when you think they matter. More Qu'rans will be burned, and now the pastor wants to put the Prophet Muhammad on trial. That should be even more blasphemous fun!

Is that what your wife says to you in bed?

Uh-oh...more sexual insecurity...I think we have another winner.

[Guest American Woman]

Would you go out and deliberately commit some act that you knew could get someone else killed just to stroke your own ego or advance your personal agenda?

So you are saying that burning a Koran results in Muslims rioting and killing other innocent people. That it's a given. Burn a Koran, and people will die. Is that it? Have there been murders committed every time a Koran has been burned? If that's true, where do you think the fault lies?? Seriously.

Would you not expect to be taken to task for doing so? Forget the Muslims, we can only control and be responsible for our own actions.

If I did nothing illegal, and others reacted illegally out of their anger over it, I would not be expected to be taken to task over it, especially when it's perfectly acceptable to engage in the same behavior regarding a different group of people. So I would expect those who did the killing to be taken to task over it. By the same token, I don't blame movies or books or speeches or music lyrics for deaths. I blame those who do the killing. You keep ignoring my questions regarding flag burning, and of course it's obvious as to why. You are applying your standards to only one group of people, and to answer my questions would be to have to admit that to yourself.

You are right about the title of this thread and it should be changed. The US did nothing of the sort.

No, it did not, so I appreciate your recognizing that.

Yet that is the way it's all too often being presented, and the U.S. Congress is even expected to condemn the act. Muslims aren't expected to speak out against all the extremists even as they target and kill innocent people, yet the U.S. Congress is expected to condemn the act of one man, not even over a murder, but regarding a book. Just another of the double standards that exist.

Edited April 4, 2011 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

I know, it's legal to do it, just like offensive cartoons, but does that make it right to do it? For what it's worth, I canceled my membership at Center For Inquiry when they decided to join in on the "Blasphemy Days" celebrations. I don't believe in any gods, but I also don't agree with deliberately trying to be offensive for no reason. So, I make no distinction between offensive pictures of Jesus or Muhammed. Our culture becomes more coarse and vulgar over time, and the fact that being offensive and outrageous provides 15 minutes of fame is a large part of the reason.

Who's saying it's "right" to do it? There's a difference between "right" and "a right." But just because we don't think it's the right thing to do does not make him responsible for the acts of others. Furthermore, if it's a given that people will die when someone burns a Koran, I'd say that's a real problem -- and not with the person burning the Koran.

I respect your belief that people shouldn't deliberately try to be offensive for no reason. Most of the time, though, there is a reason, whether you agree with the reason or not, whether you think it's a valid reason or not. I tend to agree with you. But at the same time, I don't expect people to do things my way; I accept that not everyone sees things the way I do. It's really true that "sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me." Some people need to develop a thicker skin and understand that everyone isn't going to see things the same way they do, and they have a right to say and do things we don't like/agree with as long as it's within the law. This Pastor did not break the law. Was it "right" to do what he did? I'm guessing there are some who think it was the right thing to do and some who think it was the wrong thing to do, but the bottom line is that he acted within his rights. He's not responsible for how people react. The people reacting are responsible for their own behavior.

It's not a matter of defending, it's a matter of making an attempt to understand how other people think and see the world around them. Even if you regard them as enemies to be destroyed, Sun Tzu said centuries ago that you must first know your enemy. The problem with America is that successive governments have used the military to enforce their commercial empire, while being totally oblivious to the differences.

What this pastor did was the act of an individual and has nothing whatsoever to do with "America," and you don't have to "understand" how he sees the world around him. He's going to see it differently than you do, just as you see it differently than others do. Furthermore, he destroyed a book. He didn't set out to destroy people; only a book.

Thirty years ago, during the arms-for-hostages deal that Reagan was putting together, he had his NSC staffers present a Bible and a chocolate cake to Khomeini....can't get much dumber than that, and successive invasions and occupations have shown the same ignorance of likely consequences....Rummies "they'll welcome us as liberators" being another one on the highlight reel.

I'm sorry, but what does any of that have to do with one pastor in one small church in Florida acting solely on his beliefs have to do with the U.S. government, much less thirty years ago?

This could be a matter of reaching a tipping point. There were riots after 7 boys were killed out gathering firewood, but just because they didn't gather a large enough mob together to invade a UN compound, you seem to think that they were okay with it.

Where did I ever indicate that they were "ok with it?" The fact that they didn't gather as large a crowd or as strong a reaction could very well say something, however.

Previous riots didn't have the organizing capabilities of these mullahs mentioned in the story...so there's your Muslim connection.

The "Muslim connection" is that it was Muslims rioting and looking for people to kill because one privately owned Koran was burned half way around the world.

But, if it was possible to interview participants in the mob violence, their personal reasons for being there would have more to do with the Occupation and the Afghan puppet government than with religious sacrilege.

That's pure projection on your part, but if it's true, then this pastor is being unfairly blamed by a good many people.

How many have flown under the radar and gone unpunished?

How do you know any have? And why is it acceptable to project about more incidents such as this while it wouldn't be ok to say "how many more Muslms than we know about are out there murdering people under the radar and going unpunished?" You wouldn't find that acceptable, would you?

Recall all of the outrage over the wikileaks video that was released last year. As far as I know, no one has been prosecuted, and the only legal action has been against the one who leaked the information and the one who made it available for everyone to see. Just like the prisoner-abuse stories that started after a few pics were emailed to the wrong people...it wasn't the only time it happened, and later wikileaks cables revealed that they were following orders from their superiors....who went unpunished!

What does that have to do with one private citizen burning his copy of a Koran? The government had nothing to do with that. It's a different issue entirely.

[DogOnPorch]

Who's saying it's "right" to do it? There's a difference between "right" and "a right." But just because we don't think it's the right thing to do does not make him responsible for the acts of others.

Yup. I notice there are still parking lots @ pubs and bars.

[Oleg Bach]

The guy that instigated the burning of the Koran is a baffoon..Have you seen his rediculious and dated moustache?