The end of the empire of Japan

[ToadBrother]

The containment vessels are 1 meter thick steel. The blasts were so weak they left the building superstructure in place. There is zero change that these explosions damaged the vessels themselves.

Quite frankly I think the biggest worry right now would be cholera and other water born infections.

[bush_cheney2004]

The US said it had moved one of its aircraft carriers from the area after detecting low-level radiation 160km (100 miles) offshore.

This is standard procedure for CBR risks.....washdown systems and decontamination lines are set up for flight crews completing missions to the affected area.

[GostHacked]

This is standard procedure for CBR risks.....washdown systems and decontamination lines are set up for flight crews completing missions to the affected area.

No worries, everything is safe, everything is fine ..

[Wilber]

Quite frankly I think the biggest worry right now would be cholera and other water born infections.

From a public health point of view you would think so.

[DogOnPorch]

From a public health point of view you would think so.

If those darn nuclear powerplants meltdown, it could mean an unknown dose of radiation for all those downwind...like BC, Yukon, etc.

[Wilber]

If those darn nuclear powerplants meltdown, it could mean an unknown dose of radiation for all those downwind...like BC, Yukon, etc.

Possibly but without clean water cholera is a real possibility and it can kill you in a day.

[Sir Bandelot]

To much to clean up - to much to rebuild...suffering a recession along with large international debt...Japan is now offically back in the stone age..No one can imagine the extent of the material damage - not to mention environmental damage due to human junk washed back into the sea after the wave returns from whence it came...Empires rise and fall...Yesterday Japan fell...Nature builds you up and nature takes you down - the lord gives and the lord takes it away...Looks like the hand of God via mother nature has brought Japan to it's knees - a culture were status - pride and money - along with a sucide rate that is horrific amoungst slightly failed students does not deserve to exist...and now it is gone.

It's not the whole Japan that was destroyed. But 6 reactors are in trouble. They likely will not go off in Chernobyl fashion, due to their inherent design. THese are light water reactors, whereas the Chernobyl was an RBMK Graphite reactor, a "dry" system. They used graphite rods instead of water. But with about 3 hydrogen explosions so far, and 3 reactors near melt down out of the 6, how long can it last?

[DogOnPorch]

Possibly but without clean water cholera is a real possibility and it can kill you in a day.

Oh yeah...of course...I'm just watching these reactors going 'boom' and recalling the days when the Red Chinese used to explode H-Bombs and then we'd get hit with the cloud in Canada as the winds carried it through the upper atmosphere.

[Wilber]

Oh yeah...of course...I'm just watching these reactors going 'boom' and recalling the days when the Red Chinese used to explode H-Bombs and then we'd get hit with the cloud in Canada as the winds carried it through the upper atmosphere.

I remember but a lot more radiation came from those bombs than can come from those rectors and we are still here. Just watching the news and so far the highest levels recorded are one eigth of a CAT scan to the abdomen. Apparently Vancouver drug stores are out of iodine. The donkeys that bought it would have done a lot more good if they had donated the money to the Red Cross or some other relief agency.

[wyly]

The explosions are due to a buildup of hydrogen gas because they're pumping in seawater, seeing as they have no other ready source of coolant. The blasts, from what I can tell, were expected, and while they heavily damaged the outside structures, they in no way damaged the containment vessels.

The media, and in particular CNN, have blown this way out of proportion. As much as anyone could be prepared for a monster quake (depending on the final determination either the fifth or seventh largest in recorded history), the Japanese were prepared. The reactors were scrammed when the quake hit, thus eliminating the possibility of any Chernobyl-like explosion. Beyond that, these reactors are nothing like the Chernobyl reactors in design. In essence, they are designed for just such a catastrophe. At least some of the damage didn't even come from the quake itself, but from the tsunami flooding the pump control rooms.

I'm not saying there isn't any danger, but these reactors were designed for a meltdown and in such a situation they will basically become a radioactive tomb.

The media has latched on to the reactors because the phrase "nuclear disaster" sell a helluva lot more papers than just "earth quake and tsunami catastrophe", which has me baffled, because I suspect we won't even get one fatality from the busted reactors, and yet ten thousand and people, and possibly many more, were killed in the quake and the tsunami. But "nuclear" has always been a sexier word.

hmmm it seems the authorities in japan know more than you...power plants were evacuated and one of the containment vessels may have ruptured...with no one on site who will contain the damage on the other reactors?...as well one of the reactors is fueled with weapons grade uranium...the situation is going from bad to worse...

[wyly]

That is what I hope. Are the containment vessels compromised in any way with the two blasts that occurred? I would think/hope they can sustain a blast like that.

how can they design for a situation that was not anticipated?...they never anticipated a tsunami taking out the diesel generators...as one nuclear expert said "there is no way to run tests for something like this"

Edited March 15, 2011 by wyly

[DogOnPorch]

I remember but a lot more radiation came from those bombs than can come from those rectors and we are still here. Just watching the news and so far the highest levels recorded are one eigth of a CAT scan to the abdomen. Apparently Vancouver drug stores are out of iodine. The donkeys that bought it would have done a lot more good if they had donated the money to the Red Cross or some other relief agency.

So far...yes. None have really cracked completely. But, tales are coming in about TEPCo's poor handling of the used rods...also stored in the reactors. They might end-up exposed to the air, as well, if reports are true.

(Edit: I am also a Firesign Theater fan of old.)

Edited March 15, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[xul]

There are some bad news...possible bad news indeed.

I just read from Chinese media that there is a problem in #2 reactor. Japanese now are using fire trucks pumping sea water into the containment vessels of the reactors to cool them down (meanwhile a little radioactive substance along with hydrogen gas and vapor come out from safety valve because the water poured in is vaporized by the core). They have poured a lot of water in the vessel but they have found that the water level of reactor #2 had reached "normal level" for a time then began to drop again, and they don't know exactly why.

The phenomenon may indicate that there might be a possible breach at the bottom of the containment vessel of reactor #2. If the containment vessel was broken, the situation might be more worse than the Three Mile Island accident though it would still be better than the Chernobyl disaster.

Another possibility is just sample. The water may just be vaporized again.

Edited March 15, 2011 by xul

[ToadBrother]

If those darn nuclear powerplants meltdown, it could mean an unknown dose of radiation for all those downwind...like BC, Yukon, etc.

No it does not mean that at all. Quit watching the hyperbolic nonsense of CNN. Providing the containment vessels are intact, all it means is that Japan has lost some reactors. To repeat one more time, this is a Three Mile Island style failure, not a Chernobyl style failure.

[DogOnPorch]

No it does not mean that at all. Quit watching the hyperbolic nonsense of CNN. Providing the containment vessels are intact, all it means is that Japan has lost some reactors. To repeat one more time, this is a Three Mile Island style failure, not a Chernobyl style failure.

Calm down. I was just commenting re: Chinese H-Bomb tests back in the 60s-70s when Canada would get a high altitude cloud of radiation carried by winds aloft. If the unthinkable happens in Japan, a similar cloud might indeed head Canada's way.

[eyeball]

The containment vessels are 1 meter thick steel. The blasts were so weak they left the building superstructure in place. There is zero change that these explosions damaged the vessels themselves.

1 meter thick? You must mean the building which is or was concrete not steel.

According to a technical expert on CTV the steel reactor vessel itself is 17 cm thick and I've read the steel drywell it's contained in is a little over 3.5 cm thick. The reactor vessel has also been penetrated with water and steam pipes and ports for wiring and control rods etc, which apparently can provide avenues through which heat and pressure can work away at the integrity of the vessel's material.

[jbg]

During the Meiji period, Japan went from a feudal backwater (in large part self-imposed, a few centuries earlier Japan had been the largest firearm manufacturer in the world) to a major power in a few short decades. I can't think of another country that industrialized and modernized itself that quickly. It has to be one of the great technical and social leap forwards in all of history.

One of the issues I see here is that the area wasn't industrialized earlier on for a reason. I suspect that Mother Nature isn't kind in that part of the world to massive development.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The phenomenon may indicate that there might be a possible breach at the bottom of the containment vessel of reactor #2. If the containment vessel was broken, the situation might be more worse than the Three Mile Island accident though it would still be better than the Chernobyl disaster.

We just don't know....it took many years to assess the actual extent of core damage from the TMI accident in 1979. It turns out that the reactor vessel itself provides additional design margin, and much of the molten casings and fuel meat settled at the bottom of the reactor vessel. It actually proved quite difficult to penetrate the reactor vessel and slag post mortem.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/tmi/tmi10.htm

Edited March 15, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[xul]

It actually proved quite difficult to penetrate the reactor vessel and slag post mortem.

But there wasn't an earthquake factor in the Three Mile Island accident.

If the vessel was damaged during the quake, I mean maybe just some cracks on the wall of the underground part of the vessel, it would be far more difficult to deal with.

Soviet successfully re-sealed the Chernobyl reactor by constructing a new containment vessel wrapped the reactor up...at the cost of the life and health of thousands of the soliders', workers' and engineers' who built the containment vessel.

Edited March 15, 2011 by xul

[Post To The Left]

But there wasn't an earthquake factor in the Three Mile Island accident.

If the vessel was damaged during the quake, I mean maybe just some cracks on the wall of the underground part of the vessel, it would be far more difficult to deal with.

Soviet successfully re-sealed the Chernobyl reactor by constructing a new containment vessel wrapped the reactor up...at the cost of the life and health of thousands of the soliders', workers' and engineers' who built the containment vessel.

Chernobyl was an out of control reaction which created huge amounts of radiation. The Japanese plant shut down before or as soon as the earthquake hit. Also, the core in Japanese plants are surrounded by a containment container, something the Soviet plant didn't have. The worse it could get would be something like three mile island. During that incident "estimates of radiological exposure for the 2 million people in the area amounted to about one-sixth of what they might have received from a chest X-ray."

[SF/PF]

The level of radiation in the surrounding area is now high enough to damage human health in the longterm. In one of the reactors, cooling water is boiling.

Its not looking good.

Edit: All 4 reactors at the Fukushima(sp?) plant are leaking raditaion.

Edit: Source: Report on CBC Newsworld.

Edited March 15, 2011 by SF/PF

[Post To The Left]

The level of radiation in the surrounding area is now high enough to damage human health in the longterm. In one of the reactors, cooling water is boiling. Its not looking good.

This happened this morning when radiation levels near the plant reached slightly dangerous levels but the levels quickly peaked and are now back to minor radiation levels.

In other news 9700 people who were missing and presumed dead have been found safe and sound at the designated evacuation point.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Post To The Left

[GostHacked]

This happened this morning when radiation levels near the plant reached slightly dangerous levels but the levels quickly peaked and are now back to minor radiation levels.

In other news 9700 people who were missing and presumed dead have been found safe and sound at the designated evacuation point.

Evac area around the nuke plant has been extented to 30+kms, I expect that to go up to 40, perhaps 50km radius. And around the other plant, the PM of Japan last night was saying that they are evacuating 10km radius around that because of similar fears with the towers blowing.

I believe this is much worse than what we are being told. It's not worse than Chernobyl, but it's worse than 3 mile Island.

[GostHacked]

http://rt.com/news/meltdown-radiation-japan/

The incident at Fukushima-1 nuclear power plant has been assigned the sixth level of emergency out of seven according to the INES (International Nuclear Events Scale).

Fox is saying the same thing.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/15/japanese-nuclear-panic-rises-agency-says-radiation-leaking-atmosphere/

France's nuclear watchdog is now warning the situation at Fukushima's No. 1 nuclear plant now rates at six on a seven-point scale of gravity, according to AFP.

As soon as the first one blew, I am sure some of you expected them all to blow. As did I.

[GWiz]

If the final death toll comes in under 100,000 I'll be greatly surprised...

But if it does it will mean that Japan did an EXTRAORDINARY job in preparing for a disaster like this that NO country on earth could have done better preparing for such a TRIPLE (2 natural 1 manmade) disaster...

People here keep forgetting Japan is one of the most densely populated countries in the world... There were MILLIONS of people living in the area most affected by the Earthquake/Tsunami double hit, with very little TIME to prepare for the second (Tsunami) hit...

- Tsunamis race across the sea at up to 500 miles (805 kilometers) an hour—about as fast as a jet airplane. At that pace they can cross the entire expanse of the Pacific Ocean in less than a day. And their long wavelengths mean they lose very little energy along the way. -