ToadBrother Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 I still think what they achieved with Libya was a good thing, upon reflection. I don't think any of those people would have expected him to react any differently to internal threats than he has, but he wasn't sponsoring world terrorism or shooting police bobbies in London any more. I don't know about credit. You can draw a line between 9/11 and these events, I'm sure. So does Bin Laden deserve credit too ? Bush deserves credit for saying that democracy in the middle east was a goal and for trying to make it happen in Iraq, whatever you think about his motivations. Al Jazeera deserves credit for bringing journalism to the people of the region. I think who deserves the credit, and the blame to some extent, is the parents of the current generation of teenagers and young adults, who throughout the Muslim world, were doing the horizontal mambo with great zest during the 1980s and 1990s and produced the conditions that made the tired, dictatorial regimes simply were unwilling or unable to correct. I don't think it has anything to do with Bush, or Arab TV, or bin Laden, or any of it. High fertility rates coupled with stagnant economies, or at least economies that failed to deliver the goods to Joe and Jane Average, that's what did it. To whatever extent that the West propped up these regimes through direct support or by paving the way for Western companies to get a piece of the pie, I guess the West can be blamed, but revolutions happened before Al Jazeera started broadcasting or people were logging in to Facebook and Twitter, and the universal truth of revolutions is this; that where a regime delivers oppression, but can't at the very least deliver a degree of decent living, something is going to give. Quote
GostHacked Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Where it's going to hit the West is in the pocketbook. Instability in major oil producing countries is going to effect everything from food prices to the price of a pair of sneakers. It's going to mean that, in many of these countries, the rule book that we've had since the Cold War days is going to be tossed out and we're going to have to learn how to deal with new leaders, governments and altered societies. When (not if) it starts hitting us in the pocketbook, things are going to get ugly here as well. That is how it will come to our shores. I want to be wrong, but this is all just the beginning. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 I think we can all agree that this is a massive violation of human rights....dammit I sound like a bloody socialist...lol. Well, at least pretty much all of us can agree on one thing, which is that the attacks on these protesters is awful and quite wrong. I'm with you man, for once. Hope this stops soon and the people get whatever changes they want coming. In Libya and every other country in the world that wants it. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
capricorn Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) Genocide usually relates to entire ethnic populations being systematically wiped out of certain geographic regions... Unless one thinks most of the Libyan population is a single ethnic group?? Jack, I have just listened to a Libyan woman who called CNN, at great personal peril I'm sure, make comments that may turn out to be ominous. She thinks Gaddafi is out to kill all Libyans rather than relinquish his grasp on the country. This stuck a chord because just 30 minutes earlier I heard a Libyan say Gaddafi actually hates Libya. Well, they might just be right. This maniac is overseeing his people being massacred on the streets. He is clearly insane. Edited February 22, 2011 by capricorn Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 Jack, I have just listened to a Libyan woman who called CNN, at great personal peril I'm sure, make comments that may turn out to be ominous. She thinks Gaddafi is out to kill all Libyans rather than relinquish his grasp on the country. This stuck a chord because just 30 minutes earlier I heard a Libyan say Gaddafi actually hates Libya. Well, they might just be right. This maniac is overseeing his people being massacred on the streets. He is clearly insane. I just listened to that,as well... Khaddaffi has always been a bit of a flake..I don't know if he's actually insane,but he's a classic totalitarian power and control freak... I'm not shocked that he's gone to these lengths to maintain that control...I'm sure he feels he,and only he,is capable maintianing his version of peace... I just thank God I don't live in places like Libya...I'm in no danger of being shot for criticizing the gov't here... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
capricorn Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 I just thank God I don't live in places like Libya...I'm in no danger of being shot for criticizing the gov't here... I don't fear being gunned down either. It's those contrails that I worry about. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 I don't fear being gunned down either. It's those contrails that I worry about. Yes.. The Illuminati is everywhere!!!! Damn you,Adam Weishaupt!!!! Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
DogOnPorch Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 Yes.. The Illuminati is everywhere!!!! Damn you,Adam Weishaupt!!!! Cthulhu waits dreaming. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) Cthulhu waits dreaming. "The brother has come into the "light"...." "Are you on the square?" "Yes!I'm on the level!" "Hiram Abiff was caught up in a whirlwind" Edited February 22, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
ToadBrother Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) Just reading the BBC ticker, and apparently one of their journalists has managed to get into Eastern Libya, which is now apparently completely under opposition (whatever exactly that is) control. No one has said anything, but the vast majority of Libya's oil wells are south of Benghazi. If the opposition, if it can unify itself, can get the weapons and equipment together, they should move quickly to seize control of the oil. Here's something the West could help with if they actually had any balls to do anything. Get some goddamned soldiers in there somehow, even if its to rescue alleged citizens stuck in the country, help these people grab Libya's oil wealth from that nutbar Gadhafi and, if need be, hole the bastard up in his compound in Tripoli so someone can accidentally drop a dozen bunker busters on top of his vile head. Edited February 22, 2011 by ToadBrother Quote
GostHacked Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 Just reading the BBC ticker, and apparently one of their journalists has managed to get into Eastern Libya, which is now apparently completely under opposition (whatever exactly that is) control. No one has said anything, but the vast majority of Libya's oil wells are south of Benghazi. If the opposition, if it can unify itself, can get the weapons and equipment together, they should move quickly to seize control of the oil. Here's something the West could help with if they actually had any balls to do anything. Get some goddamned soldiers in there, even if it means going on leave The west needs to stay out of it. The current problems are in fact due to a lot of how the west has been meddling in these countries where you currently see the citizens uprising and taking things back for themselves. If we want lasting peace and real security, we need to stay the hell out of this and let them figure it out for themselves. Quote
ToadBrother Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 The west needs to stay out of it. The current problems are in fact due to a lot of how the west has been meddling in these countries where you currently see the citizens uprising and taking things back for themselves. If we want lasting peace and real security, we need to stay the hell out of this and let them figure it out for themselves. Oh BS. Libya has only made a reapproachment with the West in the last decade. This isn't Egypt or Tunisia, where the tyrant was supported by the West, this is Gadhafi, a guy who for most of his time as leader of Libya, has been universally reviled by the West. Quote
Mr.Canada Posted February 23, 2011 Author Report Posted February 23, 2011 The west needs to stay out of it. The current problems are in fact due to a lot of how the west has been meddling in these countries where you currently see the citizens uprising and taking things back for themselves. If we want lasting peace and real security, we need to stay the hell out of this and let them figure it out for themselves. If Gadhafi kidnaps or bombs the American nationals at the embassy for example. America will be going to Lybia to kill him. Hopefully the people of Lybia are that lucky and that Gadhafi is that stupid. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
August1991 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Watching Fascist dictators fall is a very good thing! Yes, and Daniel Ortega has sent his moral support to Gaddafi: Nicaragua's leftist President Daniel Ortega says he has telephoned Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to express his solidarity. Ortega says he has called several times this week because Gadhafi "is again waging a great battle" to defend the unity of his nation. Washington PostIt is absurd to pretend that Gaddafi was in any way supported by the West. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 It is absurd to pretend that Gaddafi was in any way supported by the West. Agreed......Reagan bombed his ass. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Agreed......Reagan bombed his ass. F-111F Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) F-111F Refueled five times! Thanks Spain...and France! [/sarcasm] Edited February 23, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Shady Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Yes, and Daniel Ortega has sent his moral support to Gaddafi:Washington Post Spot on! And Hugo Chavez has opened up his country ti Gaddafi just in case he needs a place to flee. Oh those wiley fascists! Quote
Shady Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Agreed......Reagan bombed his ass. Spot on! He bombed his ass and killed his son. Apparently that's tantamount to support. Quote
GostHacked Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Agreed......Reagan bombed his ass. Saddam was supported by the west. And was bombed ... twice. Quote
Shady Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Saddam was supported by the west. And was bombed ... twice. Saddam was supported by a lot of people. The west, the east, Russia, and the Middle East. Quote
ToadBrother Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 If Gadhafi kidnaps or bombs the American nationals at the embassy for example. America will be going to Lybia to kill him. Hopefully the people of Lybia are that lucky and that Gadhafi is that stupid. Gadhafi isn't stupid, but he may not be in sufficient control to prevent attacks by his supporters on foreigners and foreign embassies. The man has lost control of a big chunk of his country, and his hold on Tripoli seems pretty tenuous, in large part reliant upon an army whose allegiances he cannot rely on. That's why the warmonger in me thinks this is the perfect moment to strike; either directly by bombing the living crap out of every piece of property he's known to frequent, or indirectly by arming the Eastern tribes who seem to be preparing to march on Tripoli. The latter, I suppose, has the benefit of looking like the locals taking him out, but one way or the other there is a golden opportunity here to get rid of one of the most vicious tyrants around. We can't get rid of the Kims from North Korea, seem unwilling to tear Robert Mugabe to shreds, but by all the gods out there, we have a bloody country that clearly despises the man and seems to be even begging for someone to intervene and stop that evil monster from having his airforce open fire on protesters. Libya is not Egypt, does not have a strong army that can basically say "You're done", and that's it. Gadhafi has spent four decades cementing his position by removing almost anyone within Libya that could be a threat. But the bastard's on the run now, so why not help cut this monster down? Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Saddam was supported by a lot of people. The west, the east, Russia, and the Middle East. He was last supported by a hangman's noose. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 ....Libya is not Egypt, does not have a strong army that can basically say "You're done", and that's it. Gadhafi has spent four decades cementing his position by removing almost anyone within Libya that could be a threat. But the bastard's on the run now, so why not help cut this monster down? Because it is far better to let the Libyans tear him limb from limb all by themselves. No "interference" required. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 I wonder how President Obama is doing right now....maybe having a smoke? http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2009/01/26/ObamaCover-thumb-425x564.jpg Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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