GostHacked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm not going to debate about the authenticity of the Bible. Good, because there is no authenticity in the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Even if there was a person by this name who acted in this manner how is this relevant in 2011? It's relevant in a lot of ways. Christianity was the basis for the systems of social interaction, government, philosophy in the time that our modern western democracies were formed. It's a religion that is basically adhered to by the majority of people in this country, even if they don't fully practice it. I find it very odd to suggest that it's not relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 The devil is like paper money - it has to be believed in...In order to have power - like a religion - you have to BELIEVE that the money is of value....The nature of evil is this - evil is the absense of intelligence...either by intent (ignorance) - or through conditioning or simply bad genetics. The presense of intelligence is the presense of GOD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 What i don't understand is that if God is all-powerful, why doesn't he just stick Satan in a jail-cell in heaven? Why does he let Satan walk around and cause all this "evil". Judaism didn't start with an almost all-powerful Satan (I'm not even sure if that describes modern Judaism), and before the Babylonian Captivity, there was no Satan responsible for evil in the world. Evil, in the form of death and decay, was a natural result of the first man getting kicked out of the Garden of Eden; and disasters, foreign invasions, and bad harvests were often described by the prophets of being visited on the Israelites by God, as punishment for idolatry or breaking the Law etc. But it's when you get to Christianity that Satan becomes a real demi-god -- Satan is all-powerful over the Earth (since he tempts Jesus by offering all of the kingdoms of the world), and Christianity becomes a dualistic religion like Zoroastrianism - with a God of good to explain all the good things, and a God of evil to explain all the shit that goes wrong. The most elevated version of Satan is found in some evangelical sects, where they teach their people that Satan is ever-present in their lives, just waiting to tempt them and lead them astray. This kind of paranoia makes Satan becomes omnipresent, all-knowing, and all-powerful...except for that final scene in the three act play where Jesus is supposed to come back and do what he was supposed to do 2000 years ago....the big mystery for me back in the day, was how come Satan hasn't read Revelation to find out how it's supposed to end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 I am having difficulty in actually understanding the Devil as the source of evil in mankind. I've actually read the bible passages pertaining to Ol Luci and I have concluded that I must have some kind of reading comprehension disorder because I can't get past the circular logic. I even have gone to Christian sites to read about scripture interpretation and I just can't make the leap from the words to the interpretations put on them by biblical "scholars". If I understand correctly, those of faith believe that Satan/Lucifer/etc was a cherub made perfect in God's image, but because Lucifer was so beautiful it went to is head and corrupted himself to the extent that he wanted to be God. Of course God would have none of that, so he threw out his once perfect creation, along with 30% of the other perfect creations and cast them into hell. And thus Lucifer began a war for the souls of mankind. And from this we have Satan spreading evil. Like evil is something you can catch. If you're trying to analyze these stories, you have to first take a look at the language they were written in - Hebrew. Lucifer is not someone's name, it was the ancient Hebrew word for morning star, which in a passage in Isaiah ch.14 is cast down from heaven. If you read that chapter without pre-interpreting it and take it at face value, you will likely conclude that Isaiah is referring to a Babylonian king that he identifies in verse three as "king of Babylon." It's later Christian interpretation that has turned this reference into a cosmic drama about a fallen angel being cast down from heaven. I'm not a Christian, but there are Christian theologians who have added a lot to the development of ethics and philosophy....but they don't do it by saying 'everything is bad because of the devil. Now apparently because mankind has free will If we can stop right here, I'd like to point out that we have to be very careful about defining "free will." Modern neuroscience informs us that there is NO aspect of mind or mental properties that are not produced by a physical brain. The most dramatic evidence comes from a series of experiments over the last 20 years which find that subjects wired up to brain imaging machines show what's called a "readiness response" of brain activity before the subject is even aware of having made a choice or simple decision. Even though the gap between brain activity and the subject's awareness of choice is only a few hundreds of a second, that gap is very significant, because it tells us that our "mind" is not the beginning of decision-making, but is instead an awareness of whatever physical process has gone on to arrive at that decision. This means that we do not have, and are not capable of having, free will that is free of physical cause, whether it's how the brain functions or influences from our environment. All forms of fundamentalist Judaism, Christianity or Islam, that I am aware of, base their ethical judgments regarding the person on having complete, libertarian free will....and such complete free will is not possible. Therefore, no one gets 100% of the blame for what they do wrong, or conversely 100% of the credit for making the right choices. If you would like to take a look at a series of essays on the implications of how a scientific understanding of the mind impacts the issues of free will and judgment, they can be found here at the Center For Naturalism. he can choose to reject evil and if he doesn't voila he is corrupted and assigned to hell upon death. that sounds suspiciously like a threat to tow the line and/or get absolution before you kick the bucket or you're gonna burn in hell for all of eternity. Seems a tad harsh if your major sins consist of life long masturbation,stealing some candy from a baby, some pre-marital sex and saying G@DD@MN frequently. And here you are troubled by the traditional conception of divine judgment because you know how much the events in someone's life could have skewed their actions. Therefore, I beleive that there is no "force of evil" that manifests itself in those of feeble free will. I don't beleive that evil exists as an external supernatural force luring humans to do bad things. I think human psychology in myriad ways is the source of people doing bad things. I'll even call those bad things evil - semantically meaning beyond the pale, but totally within an average humans capability if the right threat or psychological barrier is breached. Even if we cast off the devil excuse and are aware that our thinking is part of the physical causal chain of events in this world, we still have the dilemma of what to do with bad people here and now, in this world. There's no quick and easy answers, but prior causation cannot be used by a defendant of a crime as a blanket excuse, or nobody is guilty of anything! Even if it's not completely fair (we don't live in a fair world), criminals have to be taken off the streets. Where a naturalist perspective would really help on the crime and punishment issue though, is that most naturalists would want to base punishment on effectiveness, rather than simple retribution. A lot of what the present criminal justice system does makes absolutely no sense, except as retribution for the sake of retribution --- the jail and prison sentences for drug offenders for example! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 It's relevant in a lot of ways. Christianity was the basis for the systems of social interaction, government, philosophy in the time that our modern western democracies were formed. It's a religion that is basically adhered to by the majority of people in this country, even if they don't fully practice it. I find it very odd to suggest that it's not relevant. It may very well be a religon that was the dominant one in years gone by although I have serious doubts the majority here in Canada actually are active participants in this day and age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maple_leafs182 Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) Even if there was a person by this name who acted in this manner how is this relevant in 2011? I don't know if Jesus did live or not but if he was alive now I am sure he wouldn't be spending his life worshiping himself, he would still go around helping others. What is his relevance today, there is not much, he is just an example of what love can do. As for evil, there is no such thing as evil, it is a perception relative to each individual which is highly impacted based on there culture. What some people see as evil, others do not. If you are wondering why people do things life rob banks or kill for money, those actions are directly related to our current economic system, it promotes that kind of behavior. Edited February 9, 2011 by maple_leafs182 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) "As for evil, there is no such thing as evil, it is a perception relative to each individual which is highly impacted based on there culture. What some people see as evil, others do not." I am not so sure I agree with you. I would like to use the example of the pedophile and the exploitation of children in such circumstances. In my view such conduct is clearly evil in nature. I would like to recommend several books written by M. Scott Peck. In addition to his book The Road Less Travelled he has written several books on the nature of evil. As I recall both he and his wife are psychiatrists speaking from a Christian perspective as well as that of clinicians. Edited February 9, 2011 by pinko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 It may very well be a religon that was the dominant one in years gone by although I have serious doubts the majority here in Canada actually are active participants in this day and age. Perhaps not, but the Christian ideal and heritage is still very much present in our society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Perhaps not, but the Christian ideal and heritage is still very much present in our society. Okay although I feel (I have nothing other than my perception) that many are nominal Christians. I was baptized as a Christian (Unitarian) and when I married I was encouraged to forward the aims of my wife's religon (Catholicism). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 It may very well be a religon that was the dominant one in years gone by although I have serious doubts the majority here in Canada actually are active participants in this day and age. not to mention that of those that claim they follow it extremely few actually do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Okay although I feel (I have nothing other than my perception) that many are nominal Christians. I was baptized as a Christian (Unitarian) and when I married I was encouraged to forward the aims of my wife's religon (Catholicism). Well, you're basically a Christian for life, culturally speaking. You can deny it, but it's in you... maybe it even makes you stay things like Christianity is irrelevant ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Perhaps not, but the Christian ideal and heritage is still very much present in our society. no it's natural human nature we'd have the same basic morals regardless there has been no major changes in human behaviour...religion only codified basic social laws that were already present before religion...regardless where you go in the world the same basic social laws exist in some form in every culture regardless of the religion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) no it's natural human nature we'd have the same basic morals regardless there has been no major changes in human behaviour...religion only codified basic social laws that were already present before religion...regardless where you go in the world the same basic social laws exist in some form in every culture regardless of the religion... Basic morals... whatever that means... sure. But Christianity had specific rules about things that formed the basis of our society. If you read Jared Diamond's "Guns Germs and Steel" he talks about it somewhat. One example would be the idea of private ownership... coupled with the lending & investment condoned by the Church... allowed corporations to be formed. That helped fund exploration and colonization. Of course, this doesn't place a value judgment on any of this activity, it just says that one thing lead to the other. Edited February 9, 2011 by Michael Hardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) "As for evil, there is no such thing as evil, it is a perception relative to each individual which is highly impacted based on there culture. What some people see as evil, others do not." I am not so sure I agree with you. I would like to use the example of the pedophile and the exploitation of children in such circumstances. In my view such conduct is clearly evil in nature. I would like to recommend several books written by M. Scott Peck. In addition to his book The Road Less Travelled he has written several books on the nature of evil. As I recall both he and his wife are psychiatrists speaking from a Christian perspective as well as that of clinicians. Just the way you chose to use the word "evil" to describe paedophiles shows that Christianity is not irrelevant. Paedophilia is so abhorrent that you saw it as evil. I agree with you. Even though you've abandoned Christianity....you have not "totally cut the ties." I agree with Michael H. said, it is still in you. Paedophiles are not called "evil" these days....I've yet to come across media who would use the term evil to describe pedophiles. They are "sick" people. Edited February 9, 2011 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Just the way you chose to use the word "evil" to describe paedophiles shows that Christianity is not irrelevant. Paedophilia is so abhorrent that you saw it as evil. I agree with you. Even though you've abandoned Christianity....you have not "totally cut the ties." I agree with Michael H. said, it is still in you. Paedophiles are not called "evil" these days....I've yet to come across media who would use the term evil to describe pedophiles. They are "sick" people. I am not much interested in what labels media gives to pedophiles. Other than the fact I was born Christian please be assured I have abandoned all the trappings of Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am not much interested in what labels media gives to pedophiles. Other than the fact I was born Christian please be assured I have abandoned all the trappings of Christianity. When I think of christianity I think of brotherly love, mercy, forgiveness for the repentant. These are the main tenets of the religion, what it teaches to its followers, I think. And whether you believe in the pope or not, or some preacher man, should have absolutely nothing to do with that. It seems Jesus himself had a lot of criticism for those same types. His message was that no man had ultimate authority over the individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) What i don't understand is that if God is all-powerful, why doesn't he just stick Satan in a jail-cell in heaven? Why does he let Satan walk around and cause all this "evil". That's actually fairly simple... God could force you to bow to him because He owes you absolutely nothing at all. You owe Him your very existence,however,but because He is a loving God,He does'nt want that. God wants you to understand that his love is unconditional during the Age of Grace.During this time,He wants you to come to Him naturally,like a child would to their parents.To do this,He allows Satan to do his work amongst us,tempting us in all manner of sin,to see if our faith is real. Don't worry,Satan (and his followers) are headed for far worse than a jail cell...The Bible talks of Sheol,Hades,and,Gehenna.Think of Hades and Sheol as a sort of county jail where the guilty are held until sentencing.If found guilty at Judgement,and most of us will be found guilty,Gehenna(The Lake of Fire) awaits... 6 Day Theory and The Age of Grace...Times almost up.... Edited February 10, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 When I think of christianity I think of brotherly love, mercy, forgiveness for the repentant. These are the main tenets of the religion, what it teaches to its followers, I think. And whether you believe in the pope or not, or some preacher man, should have absolutely nothing to do with that. It seems Jesus himself had a lot of criticism for those same types. His message was that no man had ultimate authority over the individual. This is very true.. No church,not even your church (assuming you attend) is going to save anyone when Judgement occurs.Religion is a man made construct,therefore,it is inherently failed.A man in a pulpit is still a man,ordained by men,followed by men. And that man is inherently failed...A church is a place to commune with like minded individuals,however,if that church strays from the basic teachings (in my case,Christ's teachings) then I am told to leave that church because it is a false one. Faith is personal...Christ was correct,the Pharisees were wrong...Martin Luther was right...The Vatican was/is wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am not much interested in what labels media gives to pedophiles. Other than the fact I was born Christian please be assured I have abandoned all the trappings of Christianity. Don't get me wrong. I believe you when you say you've abandoned Christianity. I'm just pointing out that the usage of the term "evil" that you'd associated with an abhorrent crime clearly shows relevance of Christianity even now in 2011. You also seem to feel so strongly about it given the way you'd made a point of begging to disagree with the other poster. If I am mistaken, can you explain why you'd chosen that word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) This is very true.. No church,not even your church (assuming you attend) is going to save anyone when Judgement occurs.Religion is a man made construct,therefore,it is inherently failed.A man in a pulpit is still a man,ordained by men,followed by men. And that man is inherently failed...A church is a place to commune with like minded individuals,however,if that church strays from the basic teachings (in my case,Christ's teachings) then I am told to leave that church because it is a false one. Faith is personal...Christ was correct,the Pharisees were wrong...Martin Luther was right...The Vatican was/is wrong... So true. The Catholic church clearly violates some very important teachings: Christ is the ONLY way to God. He is the only one who can intercede for us. No saints, not the Virgin Mary. We do not kneel before any other graven images. No paganistic rituals and repetitous prayers! The blueprint for the prayer was given by Jesus - The Lord's Prayer. These are the only things that come to mind at present. Edited February 10, 2011 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubberMiley Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I'm just pointing out that the usage of the term "evil" that you'd associated with an abhorrent crime clearly shows relevance of Christianity even now in 2011. I think calling christianity "evil" is a little extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukin Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 This is very true.. No church,not even your church (assuming you attend) is going to save anyone when Judgement occurs.Religion is a man made construct,therefore,it is inherently failed.A man in a pulpit is still a man,ordained by men,followed by men. And that man is inherently failed...A church is a place to commune with like minded individuals,however,if that church strays from the basic teachings (in my case,Christ's teachings) then I am told to leave that church because it is a false one. Faith is personal...Christ was correct,the Pharisees were wrong...Martin Luther was right...The Vatican was/is wrong... Jack, you are a very knowledgeable Christian. I know this is a vague question, but how are Christians properly supposed to relate to the Old Testament? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I have studied the path. I'm not looking for any revealed truth, I;m looking to understand faith. It looks like you have a certain faith that being on the path you're on will be worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 That's actually fairly simple... God could force you to bow to him because He owes you absolutely nothing at all. You owe Him your very existence,however,but because He is a loving God,He does'nt want that. God wants you to understand that his love is unconditional during the Age of Grace.During this time,He wants you to come to Him naturally,like a child would to their parents.To do this,He allows Satan to do his work amongst us,tempting us in all manner of sin,to see if our faith is real. Don't worry,Satan (and his followers) are headed for far worse than a jail cell...The Bible talks of Sheol,Hades,and,Gehenna.Think of Hades and Sheol as a sort of county jail where the guilty are held until sentencing.If found guilty at Judgement,and most of us will be found guilty,Gehenna(The Lake of Fire) awaits... 6 Day Theory and The Age of Grace...Times almost up.... Gehenna definitely sounds like the more interesting place to be - and it sounds there'll be more company. I recall Pat Robertson or someone describing Heaven as being like Sunday School that goes on forever and ever and ever. I don't know about anyone else but that sounds about as hellish an existence as any I've ever heard or read about. The thought of even 15 minutes of that gives me the screaming meemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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