bloodyminded Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 This is indeed a nightmare, then. A moderate Islamic group with popular support. How will they rally the west against them ? I suppose that they can overstate the impact of some fringe minority members within the party, and spread their statements all over the mediasphere. Yes, that will do. Yes, quite nicely. Might work just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 There's a decent piece today from Warren Kinsella, maybe it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't know - be careful what you wish for http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/warren_kinsella/2011/01/31/17105661.html True, but there are other important perspectives to consider. Notably, the link pinko has offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Another interesting piece here from a Muslim American, let's not whitewash the dangers posed. http://www.investigativeproject.org/2547/muslim-american-warns-of-brotherhood-danger American elites are whitewashing the danger posed by the Muslim Brotherhood in nations like Egypt, writes Dr. Qanta Ahmed, a prominent Muslim American physician.Democracy's arrival "can be dangerous when violently birthed into a vacuum," Ahmed writes in the Huffington Post. "Such 'Just-Add-al-Jazeera' democracies can empower vengeful minorities like the Muslim Brotherhood. Instant democracy contains dangers for both Egyptians and citizens of established democracies such as ours here in the United States, the United Kingdom and Israel." Today, "elegant appeals for restraint from demonizing the Muslim Brotherhood have already started appearing in the mainstream U.S. press, laying the ground for its palatable rebranding. Gently ushered in within the frightening guise of politically correct and appetizing pluralism - 'we can coexist with secularity' fundamentalist Islam espoused by the Muslim Brotherhood is already welcomed as if it is 'the choice of the people.' Articulate, erudite Egyptians in well-cut suits assure us that…fundamentalist Islam could not happen in their country." Ahmed, who has firsthand experience living and working in Muslim lands, believes what is occurring in Egypt is "an Islamist movement's a la carte dream come true." But instead of telling the American public what is actually going on, the media is feeding them a steady diet of "well-spoken academics" providing false reassurances that the Brotherhood is not a major threat to liberty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Fair enough... Are you prepared to go to war with these Islamofascists? Because they want war with you.... Like I said before, thats entirely unclear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 They don't want all out war with us (west) right now, only Israel, that is fairly clear. If and when they have the power and the world demographics then we could see war, likely not in our time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Like I said before, thats entirely unclear. I don't believe it's unclear at all... The Islamofascist's will kill Muslims who are'nt "Muslim enough" for them.I have heared them say that,"By God,we are coming for the People of the Cross".They want blood vengeance against all Jews,not just the "Bobby" types. They'll certainly have no trouble killing a secular humanist Atheist,such as yourself... As I said before,when they do come to power (and I believe they will) are prepared to go to war with this animalistic,Fascistic scum? Because they,like all Fascists, are prepared to do so with you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Another interesting piece here from a Muslim American, let's not whitewash the dangers posed. http://www.investigativeproject.org/2547/muslim-american-warns-of-brotherhood-danger The Muslim Brotherhood tried to assassinate Nasser The Muslim Brotherhood succeeded in assassinating Anwar Saddat The Muslim Brotherhood supplies alot of manpower to Al Quaeda The Muslim Brotherhood is active in every country,under different front names all over the Arab world These Fascistic thugs are not to be taken lightly...And with their well organized and clandestine nature,could easily come to power in a chaotic situation like we have in Egypt... Edited February 2, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 True, but there are other important perspectives to consider. Notably, the link pinko has offered. Not to mention when we are the ones that make that decision (which devil) it causes all kinds of unintended consequences, and makes the west a convenient scapegoat for everything that goes wrong after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Not to mention when we are the ones that make that decision (which devil) it causes all kinds of unintended consequences, and makes the west a convenient scapegoat for everything that goes wrong after that. Well,I can't disagree with the shortsightedness of US foreign policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 What they can't see are the back channel communications and negotiations. They don't have to, everyone knows that's where the shit and corruption really flows, just like the money that's often behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 They don't have to, everyone knows that's where the shit and corruption really flows, just like the money that's often behind it. But that's exactly how it should happen. These delicate matters are not circus acts for your entertainment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonsa Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 The Muslim Brotherhood tried to assassinate Nasser You mean that Nasser blamed the Brotherhood for the attempt dont you? The Muslim Brotherhood succeeded in assassinating Anwar Saddat Er, No, it was the Islamic Jihad although there are some who beleive it was the Islamic Group. Both of those organizations are violent terrorist organizations and not associated with the brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood supplies alot of manpower to Al Quaeda Al Quaida hates the brotherhood and vice versa. True some AQ members were originally members of the brotherhood, but MB was a tad to non-violent for them. The Muslim Brotherhood is active in every country,under different front names all over the Arab world Yes they are globally active. Interestingly, MB in Syria is at odds with MB in Egypt, etc. This comes from the fact that it is a truly Islamic organization with a distributed (local) power architecture. I can't speak to them all, but many of those "fronts" are legitimate charitable and educational organizations. These Fascistic thugs are not to be taken lightly...And with their well organized and clandestine nature,could easily come to power in a chaotic situation like we have in Egypt... The MB in Egypt is "clandestine" only because its been banned since 48. As to its intentions, they are clearly spelled out in their various publications. They want to see the Islamic version of Judgement Day come to pass. They are just as loony as any other religious zealots. You may not like Islamic orthodoxy, but its not better or worse than Christian, Jewish, or Hindi orthodoxy. As to them being a theat to the established world order, I suppose they are. After all, the mid east (in particular) is saddled with dictators and riddled with corruption. I don't fear the Brotherhood as much as I fear the Saudis. It is Saudi Wahabism that AQ and the its various fellow terrorist thugs believe in. And they get much of their loot from the Saudis as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Not to mention when we are the ones that make that decision (which devil) it causes all kinds of unintended consequences, and makes the west a convenient scapegoat for everything that goes wrong after that. True, it's the elephant in the room in discussions of "realpolitik"--which only applies to the inferior whom we must guide...or rule...or destroy. It's an ancient Imperial mindset. Meanwhile, if some trite "thinker" like Michael Moore says, "Hey, Canada, don't vote Conservative!", we see folks throw apocalyptic tantrums about "interference in democracy" or some such nonsense. The point being, we don't believe the same democratic standards should apply to others that apply to ourselves. As if we're models of international behaviour! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 (edited) "The MB in Egypt is "clandestine" only because its been banned since 48. As to its intentions, they are clearly spelled out in their various publications. They want to see the Islamic version of Judgement Day come to pass. They are just as loony as any other religious zealots. You may not like Islamic orthodoxy, but its not better or worse than Christian, Jewish, or Hindi orthodoxy. As to them being a theat to the established world order, I suppose they are. After all, the mid east (in particular) is saddled with dictators and riddled with corruption." Religon is largely for the gullible and weak-minded. That religious zealotry is on the ascendency including here in Canada and the USA is cause for concern. By the way what religon does Mubrarak identify with? Edited February 3, 2011 by pinko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Wouldn't be the first time the USA has done so. Not by far. IOW, only my kind of "democracy" is a democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I don't believe it's unclear at all... The Islamofascist's will kill Muslims who are'nt "Muslim enough" for them.I have heared them say that,"By God,we are coming for the People of the Cross".They want blood vengeance against all Jews,not just the "Bobby" types. They'll certainly have no trouble killing a secular humanist Atheist,such as yourself... As I said before,when they do come to power (and I believe they will) are prepared to go to war with this animalistic,Fascistic scum? Because they,like all Fascists, are prepared to do so with you... Thats 50% hypbole, and 50% assumption. Describing the MB as fascists is nothing short of silliness quite frankly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Not by far. IOW, only my kind of "democracy" is a democracy. Technically, the USA is not a pure democracy of any kind....it is a constitutional republic that strives to inhibit certain undesirable aspects of democracy. To your larger point, and as I have long maintained on this forum, the US is first and foremost concerned with US interests....just like any other nation state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Technically, the USA is not a pure democracy of any kind....it is a constitutional republic that strives to inhibit certain undesirable aspects of democracy. To your larger point, and as I have long maintained on this forum, the US is first and foremost concerned with US interests....just like any other nation state. "Just like" but to varying degree.. .e.g some "nation states" may have different approaches to defining their "interests".. yet others may choose to express their concerns in a different manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 "Just like" but to varying degree.. .e.g some "nation states" may have different approaches to defining their "interests".. yet others may choose to express their concerns in a different manner. However defined, nation state actors will affect policy in their favor....either in the short or longer term....domestically or internationally. The USA garners much criticism not so much for doing this, but for doing it more emphatically than mostly anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 However defined, nation state actors will affect policy in their favor....either in the short or longer term....domestically or internationally. The USA garners much criticism not so much for doing this, but for doing it more emphatically than mostly anyone else. There's small but (hopefully) expanding group of "nation states" that haven't been doing "this", at least not in awhile. Obviously, the world will not advance to the level of trust and cooperation that is necessary to ensure stability, development and tackle serious global issues while key international players even those routinely claiming leadership in the international matters continue to be involved in "this". It's hardly the fault of any particular "nation state" just that humanity as a whole would need to group up some more.. possibly, much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 ....the world will not advance to the level of trust and cooperation that is necessary to ensure stability, development and tackle serious global issues while key international players even those routinely claiming leadership in the international matters continue to be involved in "this". But the world has "developed" and "tackled" serious issues concurrently and even because of competing interests. Claiming leadership means nothing compared to actual results. It's hardly the fault of any particular "nation state" just that humanity as a whole would need to group up some more.. possibly, much more. Then that would be its undoing...."group" competition is what got us where we are today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Thats 50% hypbole, and 50% assumption. Describing the MB as fascists is nothing short of silliness quite frankly. Not Fascist... Islamofascist...There's a difference... Edited February 5, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 But the world has "developed" and "tackled" serious issues concurrently and even because of competing interests. Claiming leadership means nothing compared to actual results. And fortunately, the "results" are finally out for everybody's view. Just won't be kept forever under democratic lid! Then that would be its undoing...."group" competition is what got us where we are today. It was supposed to be "grow", apologies for the haste. Agreed, as always, the results match the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Dre I think it ridiculous to pretend the Muslim Brotherhood is anything but fascist. In fact I would like to know on what basis you deny their fascist origins and fascist ideology. You are quick to say its ridiculous to call them fascist why? They are fascist. They have never hidden their fascist origins and their open admiration of Hitler and everything Hitler stood for. You'll have to do better then simply call people ridiculous because you want to revise history and ignore their origins or their ideology and now try paint them as cuddly bearded men. My references for contending that the Muslim Brotherhood is a fascist organization and a puppet of Nazis, then the British, then the CIA and now has broken off again and is necessarily and inherently anti-semitic can be found here: http://www.shoaheducation.com/muslimnazi.html http://media0.terrorismawareness.org/files/NaziRoots.pdf http://lightonthings.blogspot.com/2010/11/arab-muslim-nazism-documentation-your.html http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-we-should-fear-muslim-brotherhood.html http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/muslimbrotherhood.html http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/islamic-jihad-articles/on-the-foundations-of-muslim-brotherhood-alqaeda-and-dr-zindane/ http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/op-ed/probing-the-history-of-the-muslim-nazi-alliance/ http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/163591 http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=11146 http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/tag/muslim-brotherhood http://www.aina.org/news/2007070595517.htm http://arabracismislamofascism.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/arab-muslim-nazism-documentation-your-reference-guide/ http://spectator.org/blog/2011/02/03/hannity-cleric-fight-over-isla http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=764 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 There's a decent piece today from Warren Kinsella, maybe it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't know - be careful what you wish for http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/warren_kinsella/2011/01/31/17105661.html Formed nearly a century ago in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood is considered the most influential Islamist movement on the planet. It officially disavows violence, and condemned the 9/11 attacks. But a youthful Osama bin Laden, among others, was greatly influenced by Muslim Brotherhood scholars. And one of the Brotherhood's most powerful voices, still, favours a return of sharia law — and a bloody war of jihad to dominate the Muslim world.Ominously, the Brotherhood established links with Adolf Hitler's Nazi regime in the 1930s, and supported acts of terror against British forces in Palestine. The group energetically circulated Arab-language copies of Mein Kampf, as well as the notorious anti-Semitic forgery, The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Much more recently, Brotherhood-supported candidates won enough votes to form the largest opposition bloc in Egypt's legislature. Guilt by association, then (seriously: Hitler?) And just so I'm clear: is supporting acts of terror against British forces in Palestine only a bad thing when Ay-rabs do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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