Ford era begins in Toronto

nicky10013 · December 8, 2010

Montreal is an innovative city. They aren't clogging up the streets with right of way rail lines...

It's also running half billion dollar deficits.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2010/07/08/montreal-deficit.html

Black Dog · December 8, 2010

Montreal is an innovative city. They aren't clogging up the streets with right of way rail lines...

What's so innovative about it? They're closing a loop on the existing system, which is completely different objective than Transit City.

Oh right, I forgot: you don't beleive in extending transit options to areas currently underserved by transit.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Black Dog

M.Dancer · December 8, 2010

What's so innovative about it? They're closing a loop on the existing system, which is completely different objective than Transit City.

Oh right, I forgot: you don't beleive in extending transit options to areas currently underserved by transit.

Far more than closing a loop, they are extending lines far into the suburbs, off the island of Montreal. You don't build sunbways to meet today's demands..you build them for tomorrow. The sheppard line will in the next 10-20 years be a busy line. Even today there is massive development all along the line...

If they suburbs can use a street clogging right of way, now, tomorrow the street clogging right of way will not meet their needs. They need a subway.

Bonam · December 8, 2010

They don't travel at top speed. Ever.

That's why I said "up to". Technically you're wrong though, they did run them at max speed during tests prior to the opening of the new Skytrain line to the public. Anyway, the average speed of Skytrain is still far faster than anything you're going to achieve with streetcars or buses, that is the whole point of rapid transit.

Anyway, my opinion on streetcars remains unchanged. The small benefits people mentioned (lane predictability for other drivers on the road, etc) are hugely outweighed by the downsides, such as the need to spend money on infrastructure which is not needed for buses, impediments for cyclists, etc. I maintain that if what a city needs is more local low speed transit, buses are the most economical solution. If some routes have high enough ridership to warrant rapid high capacity service, then systems like subways, skytrains, monorails, etc, should be considered.

M.Dancer · December 8, 2010

It's also running half billion dollar deficits.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2010/07/08/montreal-deficit.html

so?

Toronto's deficit is well over $300 million...without extending the subway at all....and could grow...

http://www.votetoronto2010.com/board/forecast-shows-toronto%E2%80%99s-deficit-could-exceed-1-billion-by-decade%E2%80%99s-end/

Black Dog · December 8, 2010

Far more than closing a loop, they are extending lines far into the suburbs, off the island of Montreal. You don't build sunbways to meet today's demands..you build them for tomorrow. The sheppard line will in the next 10-20 years be a busy line. Even today there is massive development all along the line...

But you pay for them today. And what of all the other places who won't get subways or LRTs?

Also: far into the suburbs? 6K is far?

If they suburbs can use a street clogging right of way, now, tomorrow the street clogging right of way will not meet their needs. They need a subway.

Why not? A well-planned, well-run LRV system can easily take the place of subways and has in many cities.

By the way: I've been riding the St. Clair street car all this week and last. I've yet to see any gridlock or major traffic tie ups.

nicky10013 · December 8, 2010

so?

Toronto's deficit is well over $300 million...without extending the subway at all....and could grow...

http://www.votetoronto2010.com/board/forecast-shows-toronto%E2%80%99s-deficit-could-exceed-1-billion-by-decade%E2%80%99s-end/

February 9th, 2010 eh?

I guess you didn't get the memo that Toronto ran a 250 million dollar surplus for this fiscal year.

Edited December 8, 2010 by nicky10013

Black Dog · December 8, 2010

That's why I said "up to". Technically you're wrong though, they did run them at max speed during tests prior to the opening of the new Skytrain line to the public. Anyway, the average speed of Skytrain is still far faster than anything you're going to achieve with streetcars or buses, that is the whole point of rapid transit.

No the point is to move as many people as possible as quickly and efficiently as possible.

In a dream world where municipalities had as much money as they want to spend on whatever type of transit they want, there'd be no debate: we'd have subways. But we live in the real world where compromises are neccesary.

Anyway, my opinion on streetcars remains unchanged. The small benefits people mentioned (lane predictability for other drivers on the road, etc) are hugely outweighed by the downsides, such as the need to spend money on infrastructure which is not needed for buses, impediments for cyclists, etc.

The fact that streetcars running on their own dedicated RoW are faster and more efficient than buses seems to have escaped your notice again.

I maintain that if what a city needs is more local low speed transit, buses are the most economical solution.

But not always the fastest or most practical.

If some routes have high enough ridership to warrant rapid high capacity service, then systems like subways, skytrains, monorails, etc, should be considered.

LRVs on dedicated right of ways are a simple, affordable and practical compromise between the two options. I'm not sure why people are so willing to outright reject the idea, even as juridstictions across Europe North America embrace LRTs.

M.Dancer · December 8, 2010

February 9th, 2010 eh?

I guess you didn't get the memo that Toronto ran a 250 million dollar surplus for this fiscal year.

Toronto's outgoing city council has an early welcome gift for the incoming mayor and council: A $275-million budget surplus for 2010 – almost $100-million more than was projected in June.
It's great news for councillors who were told this year that the opening shortfall in the 2011 operating budget would be $503-million. With the surprise $275-million, that shortfall has been cut to $228-million.

Yes, I must have missed that memo..

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/toronto-budget-surplus-jumps-to-275-million/article1786115/

M.Dancer · December 8, 2010

By the way: I've been riding the St. Clair street car all this week and last. I've yet to see any gridlock or major traffic tie ups.

I was on it last night at 4:35. It took us 10 minutes to go from the station to the first stop at yonge. The traffic was heavy through to Bathurst on the west bound, lighter east bound.

M.Dancer · December 8, 2010

Also: far into the suburbs? 6K is far?

20K in all.

Why not? A well-planned, well-run LRV system can easily take the place of subways and has in many cities.

Would you rather have the yonge university line or a LRT?

Black Dog · December 8, 2010

20K in all.

The bulk of which is the loop I mentioned earlier.

Would you rather have the yonge university line or a LRT?

Again, that's not the question. The choice we're facing right now is LRTs for the suburbs or nothing.

Shady · December 8, 2010

Couldn't get a job here, eh?

I'd work in Toronto. I'd never live there.

How in the world do people forget they have a posting history, and that it can be looked at?

Almost as bad as somebody forgetting the concept of commuting. :lol:

I'm upset because a small minority (less than 25%)of the former suburbs of Toronto elected a small group of no-nothings who think they're allowed to govern by decree.

Yes, a group of eligible voters voted for a candidate you didn't prefer. Oh the horror. Seriously you need to grow up. And next it'll be the ethnic vote. :rolleyes:

Black Dog · December 8, 2010

Far more than closing a loop, they are extending lines far into the suburbs, off the island of Montreal. You don't build sunbways to meet today's demands..you build them for tomorrow. The sheppard line will in the next 10-20 years be a busy line. Even today there is massive development all along the line...

Something else was bugging me about this. Then I read this and realized what it was:

Would you rather have the yonge university line or a LRT?

You're arguing at cross purposes on this issue, Dancer. There's a clear and immediate need for transit expansion across Toronto. The downtown needs relief, the suburbs need something. The system is 30 years behind, yet you are talking about the need to "build (subways) for tomorrow?" What's your endgame here?

Though I'll say this much: your transit "plan" is at least as coherent as His Lardship's.

Black Dog · December 8, 2010

I'd work in Toronto. I'd never live there.

Wow. Not even a callback. Damn.

Yes, a group of eligible voters voted for a candidate you didn't prefer. Oh the horror. Seriously you need to grow up. And next it'll be the ethnic vote.

This from the guy who hasn't gotten over the last presidential election two years ago. :lol:

Bonam · December 8, 2010

The fact that streetcars running on their own dedicated RoW are faster and more efficient than buses seems to have escaped your notice again.

But not always the fastest or most practical.

LRVs on dedicated right of ways are a simple, affordable and practical compromise between the two options. I'm not sure why people are so willing to outright reject the idea, even as juridstictions across Europe North America embrace LRTs.

Like I've said before, you can make dedicated bus lanes / RoWs just as easily (or even easier) as for street cars. I have seen many areas in various cities that do have dedicated lanes for buses. I'm all for modern types of light rail, which is what I've been talking about, but street cars are not it.

guyser · December 8, 2010

Like I've said before, you can make dedicated bus lanes / RoWs just as easily (or even easier) as for street cars. I have seen many areas in various cities that do have dedicated lanes for buses. I'm all for modern types of light rail, which is what I've been talking about, but street cars are not it.

Depends on the age of the city and the way it was built.

Boston? Nope no can do

Toronto, pretty much the same.

Cities built with somewhat narrow streets are not easily re-jigged (if not impossible)for dedicated lanes.

Montreal (IIRC) has wide booulevards (some areas not so much) due to snow levels they get.

Basically older cities were built w narrown streets

BubberMiley · December 9, 2010

Montreal (IIRC) has wide booulevards (some areas not so much) due to snow levels they get.

Basically older cities were built w narrown streets

Winnipeg has wide streets because it's more difficult to ambush passersby.

Seriously.

Bonam · December 9, 2010

Depends on the age of the city and the way it was built.

Boston? Nope no can do

Toronto, pretty much the same.

Cities built with somewhat narrow streets are not easily re-jigged (if not impossible)for dedicated lanes.

Montreal (IIRC) has wide booulevards (some areas not so much) due to snow levels they get.

Basically older cities were built w narrown streets

Umm if it has narrow streets that poses problems for street cars too, not just buses.

Black Dog · December 9, 2010

Like I've said before, you can make dedicated bus lanes / RoWs just as easily (or even easier) as for street cars. I have seen many areas in various cities that do have dedicated lanes for buses. I'm all for modern types of light rail, which is what I've been talking about, but street cars are not it.

Buses, even those on dedicated lines, are still slower and move fewer people than light rail. As far as cost goes, you'll need more buses and more drivers to carry the same number of people as streetcars. Also: buses are gross.

That being said, dedicated buses are something to consider where appropriate: as I stated earlier, there's no such thing as a one-size-fits-all transit solution.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Black Dog

g_bambino · December 9, 2010

Like I've said before, you can make dedicated bus lanes / RoWs just as easily (or even easier) as for street cars.

Right-of-ways for busses are necessarily wider than those for streetcars. So, the former don't fit so well into existing urban density.

Busses also stink.

[+]

Edited December 9, 2010 by g_bambino

guyser · December 9, 2010

Umm if it has narrow streets that poses problems for street cars too, not just buses.

Assumption on my part was that the streetcars existed already.

Oleg Bach · December 9, 2010

All politicans have to be managed by responsible members of society - much like Harper - who was installed by powerful people - who believed they could then - simply put the federal system on auto-pilot...NO! One you install a leader you had better stay on the job..as I said yesterday - NO one has a clue what Harper is about because he is like a puppet who's puppet master has lost interest in the play...........the puppet masters had better get back to work and take and active role in advisorship!

dizzy · December 10, 2010

Sorry, I'm sure most of you have seen it, but I had it for those who haven't:

Oleg Bach · December 10, 2010

Sorry, I'm sure most of you have seen it, but I had it for those who haven't:

It's blocked...now getting back to the Ford era..Cherry intentionally provoked and irritated the left - and to show you how stupid they are they went for the bait.