Ford era begins in Toronto

[Michael Hardner]

St. Clair was a disaster, but I believe the problem was in the execution and not the fundamental plan to bring in light rail.

I believe there was the usual issue of the TTC's heavy-handedness, which resulted in a court-ordered halt to the project. That was a "victory" for the people that screwed up the project quite a bit from what I can tell. Mess.

If they consulted with people right out of the gate, then maybe a) there would be less resentment for these projects and maybe they wouldn't sue and c) maybe judges wouldn't issue stop orders to projects.

[M.Dancer]

As I said:

Yeah...I cycle to work for March to December...on the rare occision I TTC, its the St Clair Streecar to the subway...

And If asked I would fully support levying tolls on 905ers and other foreigners using our roads...that would either reduce congestion or pay for a subway pretty quick.

[M.Dancer]

It seems to me transit time to Keele W. just HAS TO BE shorter. That opens up that entire area for growth.

why does it seem to you?

I hear the difference in time for the whole route is 3 minutes, or about 5 seconds a stop...

[Black Dog]

Yeah...I cycle to work for March to December...on the rare occision I TTC, its the St Clair Streecar to the subway...

Well, i understand that as a local it's an issue for you, but I think it's folly to let one poorly managed project sully the whole idea. Babies, bathwater etc. The city need sbetter transit. Ford's tunnel to nowhere ain't it.

And If asked I would fully support levying tolls on 905ers and other foreigners using our roads...that would either reduce congestion or pay for a subway pretty quick.

Now we're talking.

[M.Dancer]

Well, i understand that as a local it's an issue for you, but I think it's folly to let one poorly managed project sully the whole idea. Babies, bathwater etc. The city need sbetter transit. Ford's tunnel to nowhere ain't it.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/streetcar-4121-02.jpg

While cheaper than the Sheppard line, the cross town Finch line will have exactly the same problem, lack of riders.

Millers solution wasn't a solution eiher. The problem with traffic in toronto is two fold. Getting people in and out of the city (suburban commuters) and getting people in and out of downtown.

It is niave to think that slow moving LRT that the Transit city plan offers with the spurs heading to Mrs.Sauga, york and Durham would attract that many riders over the high speed alternative to GO transit. If commuters are already avoiding GO, they won't be lining up to stand for 90 minutes on a streetcarLRT.

So the solution to the downtown maybe another north south line...or maybe another kick at the Allen expressway....

The solution to commuters is to have them shot at the border is that there needs to be another railway terminal other than Union. At one time there were suggestions that the Summerhill be resurrected....

[Black Dog]

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/streetcar-4121-02.jpg

While cheaper than the Sheppard line, the cross town Finch line will have exactly the same problem, lack of riders.

Millers solution wasn't a solution eiher. The problem with traffic in toronto is two fold. Getting people in and out of the city (suburban commuters) and getting people in and out of downtown.

It is niave to think that slow moving LRT that the Transit city plan offers with the spurs heading to Mrs.Sauga, york and Durham would attract that many riders over the high speed alternative to GO transit. If commuters are already avoiding GO, they won't be lining up to stand for 90 minutes on a streetcarLRT.

So the solution to the downtown maybe another north south line...or maybe another kick at the Allen expressway....

The solution to commuters is to have them shot at the border is that there needs to be another railway terminal other than Union. At one time there were suggestions that the Summerhill be resurrected....

Thing is, Transit City isn't intended to address the problems you mention. I think the idea is to extend mass transit into areas currently underserved by same and connect it to the existing regional network. I think the scope of the plan reflects the more modest goals. It's not, nor was it intended to be, a magic bullet to the whle network's problems. A real solution would require much much more, including subways. But I doubt anyone, least of all His Porkship, is willing to take a serious go at a real long-term transit solution when voters have shown themselves able to be bought with mere slogans.

[guyser]

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/streetcar-4121-02.jpg

So the solution to the downtown maybe another north south line...or maybe another kick at the Allen expressway....

The solution to commuters is to have them shot at the border is that there needs to be another railway terminal other than Union. At one time there were suggestions that the Summerhill be resurrected....

Lack of foresight ion the past, primarily Premier Wm Davis , plus a few others that sat on city council has put us in this predicament.

Spadina , un til a few years ago (IIRC) when they started to sell the houses they had appropriated, could have still been a go.

Another cancelled idea , and left in limbo forever, as evidenced by the Gardiner ramp that just stopped shy of the Beach, was to run a highway out along that way via HWy#2 . That is one reason why the DVP was built to handle only something like 3-4000 cars an hour instead of the multiple times that it now does.

So, we could have Spadina, which takes care of all commuters in the NW quadrant. Gardiner and 427 handle mid -west and south + Mississauga, Uni-Ave Rd-Yonge-Bayview would handle NorthYork and central TO and the Hwy 2 extension would filter all the Pickering Oshawa people and traffic would flow in this city.

Now? Well, now we have the longest average commute times on the continent.

[Michael Hardner]

why does it seem to you?

I hear the difference in time for the whole route is 3 minutes, or about 5 seconds a stop...

3 minutes from Keele to St. Clair West at rush hour ? Seems unlikely to me. Just driving to Keele is often a nightmare, when I have done it.

[Michael Hardner]

And Morris... the multi subway lines you're proposing above... how much would they cost ? $20B ?

[Black Dog]

So, we could have Spadina, which takes care of all commuters in the NW quadrant. Gardiner and 427 handle mid -west and south + Mississauga, Uni-Ave Rd-Yonge-Bayview would handle NorthYork and central TO and the Hwy 2 extension would filter all the Pickering Oshawa people and traffic would flow in this city.

Now? Well, now we have the longest average commute times on the continent.

Cite?

Anyhoo, it's a damn good thing that the Spadina expressway didn't come to pass. Freeways don't alleviate traffic congestion: they cause it.

[M.Dancer]

Cite?

I hear it almost daily on the ads they have been running on TV for some annoying TV news show...

[M.Dancer]

3 minutes from Keele to St. Clair West at rush hour ? Seems unlikely to me. Just driving to Keele is often a nightmare, when I have done it.

No the improvement over the whole route, From Young to gunns line is 3 minutes.

[Black Dog]

I hear it almost daily on the ads they have been running on TV for some annoying TV news show...

Found one.

It's funny, though, because when you look at the report, it's clear that if Toronto wants to compete in the global marketplace, it needs to improve its transit system while making it harder to drive. The War on Cars should only be just beginning.

[pfezziwig]

Finally, a politician who thinks we can spend our own money more wisely than government, what a breath of fresh air.

Guess those deficit spending lefties will have to post pone driving our country into bankruptcy because if Ford can win Toronto many other cities have a chance for sane politicians to win (ie. someone who doesn't think deficit spending is a viable long term sustainable strategy.)

[Black Dog]

Finally, a politician who thinks we can spend our own money more wisely than government, what a breath of fresh air.

Yup, spending four times as much to build a subway that goes half as far (to say nothing of the financial penalties incurred) is awesome fiscal management.

Have any of Fordophiles actually crunched the mumbers on his fiscal plan?

[M.Dancer]

Yup, spending four times as much to build a subway that goes half as far (to say nothing of the financial penalties incurred) is awesome fiscal management.

Have any of Fordophiles actually crunched the mumbers on his fiscal plan?

You know, they should have been building subways in the 80s...like Montreal...the one City in Canada where you really don't want to drive, and don't have to. A completely integrated suburban rail system that connects to a vast subway system that people actually take....of course, it's about 30% cheaper to travel in MTL...

[guyser]

Cite?

Anyhoo, it's a damn good thing that the Spadina expressway didn't come to pass. Freeways don't alleviate traffic congestion: they cause it.

I cannot agree.

How can more strategic highways cause more traffic congestion. Other than it attracts more people because it does mopve freer, I cannot understand what reasoning you have for syaing that.

Besides that, living here you know that The Allen is a nightmare to use. Think of it 4 times the size running into downtown.

Commuter heaven baby !

[guyser]

You know, they should have been building subways in the 80s...like Montreal...the one City in Canada where you really don't want to drive, and don't have to. A completely integrated suburban rail system that connects to a vast subway system that people actually take....of course, it's about 30% cheaper to travel in MTL...

From all I know, and not being in MTl for ages, I hear this all the time.

My Q is, had Mtl stayed booming and growing the way TO has during the 80s, dwould they have the room to do so?

I like the wide blvds of Montreal, built (I assume) that wide to accomodate the snow. with those wide blvds, they also allow for sidebar construction with minimal delays to the commuter.

Or am I wrong?

Edited December 1, 2010 by guyser

[Black Dog]

I cannot agree.

How can more strategic highways cause more traffic congestion. Other than it attracts more people because it does mopve freer, I cannot understand what reasoning you have for syaing that.

Are you being facetious? I'll assume you're not, but you pretty much answer your own question. Basically, if people are presented with an option that makes travel faster, they'll take it. Over time, though, that benefit will disappear as more and mroe people try to obtain it. That's why L.A. is a traffic mess despite having a massive freeway network.

[Michael Hardner]

No the improvement over the whole route, From Young to gunns line is 3 minutes.

How is that even frickin' possible ? Did you ever drive by St. Clair and Old Weston Road before ? You could be caught in that for 10 minutes.

I won't believe it without a link and a YouTube video from Alex Jones.

[guyser]

Are you being facetious?

No, thick maybe but not facetious

I'll assume you're not, but you pretty much answer your own question. Basically, if people are presented with an option that makes travel faster, they'll take it. Over time, though, that benefit will disappear as more and mroe people try to obtain it. That's why L.A. is a traffic mess despite having a massive freeway network.

LA is a mess in part to no mass transit. They have it but no one uses it.It aint very good from reports I have of friends living there.

If the correct balance is struck betw more highways and better TTC, I would believe more people would opt for the TTC than drive.

When I lived in Leaside and around Eglinton, the TTC worked great for me to go to hockey games theatre etc since it is cheap to jump on, watch whatever and be home w/o any hassles or expense of parking.

[M.Dancer]

How is that even frickin' possible ? Did you ever drive by St. Clair and Old Weston Road before ? You could be caught in that for 10 minutes.

I won't believe it without a link and a YouTube video from Alex Jones.

How is what possible? That it is as much as 3 minutes or as little? Maybe taking as much as 10 minutes to leave St Clair and cross yonge st has an effect.

[M.Dancer]

From all I know, and not being in MTl for ages, I hear this all the time.

My Q is, had Mtl stayed booming and growing the way TO has during the 80s, dwould they have the room to do so?

I like the wide blvds of Montreal, built (I assume) that wide to accomodate the snow. with those wide blvds, they also allow for sidebar construction with minimal delays to the commuter.

Or am I wrong?

No idea..

But MTL is small...far smaller than the GTA....and on an island to boot.

[M.Dancer]

How is that even frickin' possible ? Did you ever drive by St. Clair and Old Weston Road before ? You could be caught in that for 10 minutes.

I won't believe it without a link and a YouTube video from Alex Jones.

This link might interest you...

http://torontoist.com/2010/11/rocket_talk_how_come_st_clair_streetcars_stop_so_much.php

[The_Squid]

Freeways do not alleviate traffic congestion in the long-term.... Look to any major city in the USA for evidence.

Cities need a host of solutions to curtail demand of the limited resource at peak times... building freeways or bigger roads isn't a sustainable solution. Congestion charges and increased public transport are two suggestions...

Stockholm had a 25% drop in traffic after instituting a congestion charge. London has one too...