Homeless People & Immigrants

[August1991]

This part of Tasha Kheiriddin's piece in the National Post reminded me of of an old observation:

Unlike his opponents and the Toronto Star would have voters believe, white guys aren’t the only Torontonians who are angry: the whole city is. Or at least 47% of it is mad enough to elect a candidate who promises to “stop the gravy train” which they feel has been running far too long. Voter turnout was a whopping 50%, the highest in twelve years, up from 39% in 2006. Of 44 councillors, 9 incumbents did not run again, and voters turfed 6 others, including a number of left-wing stalwarts.

You only had to walk through Mr. Ford’s victory party last night to see how the city’s electoral allegiances are changing. The crowd was a representative mix, ethnically speaking, of the city the new Mayor is now to govern. Turbaned Sikhs partied with Chinese families. Black kids and white kids chased each other around the tables. Jews, Muslims, and Christians cheered and applauded Mr. Ford’s speech.

This should not come as a surprise; an EKOS poll published two days before the vote gave Mr. Ford 51.7 % of the vote of respondents born outside of Canada, compared to only 30.1 % for Mr. Smitherman. This, despite statements made by the Etobicoke Councillor about Toronto’s difficulty in absorbing more newcomers, which were characterized as anti-immigrant by his rivals.

The observation? I never see immigrants sleeping on the streets, begging for money or trying to clean my car windows at traffic lights.

In Montreal, homeless people on the street tend to be young white males or females with tattoos, piercings and pet dogs, or old white males or aboriginals of both sexes.

Looking at them, I can't help but conclude that these people have had many opportunities in life - but they have invariably made every time a very bad choice.

Here is one study in Montreal that describes homeless people (itinérance). Apparently, many suffer from mental problems - but the study also notes that about 75% of the homeless are men, and 25% are women. Do men suffer from mental problems more than women?

And why have I never seen an Asian-American (I'm being PC here) homeless person begging for money? Instead, I commonly see some white kid with a bilingual sign (bad French) saying "No $, no food, plz help".

-----

I have lived in Asia and travelled elsewhere, in very poor countries. Beggars in India are nothing like homeless people in North America.

It seems to me that homelessness is a "champagne problem". It's a problem that occurs among rich people in rich societies who cannot take good decisions.

I was reminded too of Theodore Dalyrymple, a UK medical doctor who has worked among the poor in London alongside doctors from the Third World:

I ask the doctors to compare the shops in areas inhabited by poor whites and those where poor Indian immigrants live. It is an instructive comparison. The shops the Indians frequent are piled high with all kinds of attractive fresh produce that, by supermarket standards, is astonishingly cheap. The women take immense trouble over their purchases and make subtle discriminations. There are no pre-cooked meals for them. By contrast, a shop that poor whites patronize offers a restricted choice, largely of relatively expensive prepared foods that at most require only the addition of hot water.

The difference between the two groups cannot be explained by differences in income, for they are insignificant. Poverty isn't the issue. And the willingness of Indians to take trouble over what they eat and to treat meals as important social occasions that impose obligations and at times require the subordination of personal desire is indicative of an entire attitude to life that often permits them, despite their current low incomes, to advance up the social scale.

Link Edited October 28, 2010 by August1991

[bjre]

This is the education failure.

This is the culture failure.

A culture can not tolerate a bruise on a kid but can let a kid be, without learning any useful knowledge and without learning any active living attitude.

A culture that send parents that believes "spare the rod, spoil the kid" to jails and kidnap their kids to group homes and make more of them end up in correct system than in high schools.

The culture that only think of the money to feed CAS, cops, judges, jails, lawyers and ignore the future of the nation.

What can you expect for the kids under this kind of culture as "political correctness"?

[RNG]

I agree. Equality should be in opportunity, not in outcome.

[Bonam]

Well, I've seen a fair share of non-white homeless people, both in Montreal and Vancouver, as well as in Seattle. Of course in the US, blacks are greatly over-represented among the beggars and homeless for various reasons, but most of them aren't immigrants. In fact I'd say the vast majority of beggars I've encountered in Seattle have been black, though they represent only a small minority of the population.

That being said, I agree, in our society (both the US and Canada), just about anyone who is homeless is thus as a result of a long series of horrifically stupid decisions, not because of a lack of opportunities. Yeah many of them have "mental problems" but many of those problems are a result of drug addictions, which in itself is one of those horrifically stupid choices to begin with.

Personally, I have very little sympathy for the beggars and homeless, whatever their color or national origin.

[August1991]

Well, I've seen a fair share of non-white homeless people, both in Montreal and Vancouver, as well as in Seattle.

Have you ever seen a Chinese beggar? Or a beggar in a saree? How many Muslims go to food banks?

I know that I am generalizing and I am basing my argument on anecdotal evidence.

Nevertheless, North American poverty seems largely to amount to bad choices, among people who have been given many chances.

And going back to the OP, "oppressed, minority, victimized, visible, immigrant minorities" - to use a certain terminology - seem to have voted for Rob Ford, the guy who promises to cut taxes and reduce the "gravy train" of handouts.

Personally, I have very little sympathy for the beggars and homeless, whatever their color or national origin.

Personally, I have alot of sympathy/emapthy for people in such circumstances. I just don't know how to help someone who keeps making bad decisions. I rarely give them money because I know that a lack of money is generally not their problem. Edited October 28, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

Have you ever seen a Chinese beggar? Or a beggar in a saree? How many Muslims go to food banks?

Yes on the Chinese. No on the Saree. And I don't usually talk to people going to food banks so I don't know their religion, but I have seen Arab beggars.

Personally, I have alot of sympathy/emapthy for people in such circumstances.

Why? You yourself said they are people making a lot of bad choices. Choices have consequences. People have a responsibility to use their minds to make the best choices they can to ensure their own prosperity. If they fail to do this, it is no one else' obligation to provide their prosperity for them.

I just don't know how to help someone who keeps making bad decisions.

By letting them learn from their mistakes so that they can, with experience, gain the capacity for making better decisions. If you keep bailing people out and preventing them from suffering the consequences of poor choices, they will just keep doing more of the same.

[William Ashley]

1st there are some white immigrants. I don't see how you identify "white as Canadian" vs. non white non Canadians. There have been some Canadians of Chinese or African decent or other parts of the world and cultures that have been here longer than "white immigrants" There were black slaves here as long as there have been white slave owners here. Slavery was part of Canada's past also, and black were slaves. During the underground railroad the black population increased a little too, that was before the US civil war. The chinese played a large part in Canadas early history since confederation with the construction of the Railway from coast to coast. So for you to use white vs. immigrant is icredibly ignorant. Oddly what is says is that white have been more prone to "social failure" than black or asians over time. I wouldn't necisarily agree, asians however tend to excel as part of their culture. Whites can have less "stresses" to force them into the same lifestyles as their parents, but the fact is there are lots of white people living in poverty - actually in some communities the ones on the welfare roles are white people - whether single mothers or other- in other areas it may be ethnic minorities - who knows but that isn't due to the capability of the people it is due to the economic environment and politics support chains - caring and supporting our fellow people. Fact is the reason those youths are on the streats ain't because they are non conformists (thus mentally issued as doctors tend to use since their rating system for diagnosis is based on non conformist behaviours a totally totalitarian diagnostic system - although I do agree some people are deeply dtroubled people who are "depressed or moody as they use to call it" arn't mentally issued - life just sucks or doesn't meet their expectations - or there are chemical issues not mental illness the world blows have you seen it - they are the sane ones --- on the other hand some people are indeed non lucid these people may have reasons for why they are the way they are and drugging them more is not a solution - protecting them (or the public) is, but taking away their constitutional rights and drugging them and locking them away isn't a "solution" it is a social problem because it gives a weapon for corruption - the ontario mental health act is just one example of violations of medical ethics and constitional rights - the act is unconstitutional and it isn't fundamental justice - actually it is contrary to justice it dispells justice by annuling judicial inquiry or the right to fair trial befor the courts - rather than a doctor - it is funny how these people live their lives up until their "run in" with the law or some event that can't be heard in court appears - the KGB and other intelligence agencies use to use both prisons and mental health centers to silence dissidents - I'm not in belief this isn't used by the medical system in Canada - other forms of corruption and malpractice occur)

Your post is deeply troubling for your own false biases.

http://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=slaves+canada+history&aq=f&aqi=g1g-m1g-o1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=fbf719e6edf87023

homeostaic deequilibrem is problematic as a treatment method - it is a known fact that artificial stimulus of concentration of bodily produced materials results in absence of production by natural producers because there is surplus by artificial means and this reduces the natural production capacity over time throwing the body out of order - creating dependence on the foreign introduction of the chemical for normative function .

"disagreeing or dissenting, as in opinion or attitude" people are dragged into the places kicking and screaming and doing the same thing it is not uncommon for people to fight with their keepers because they are there against their will for their beleifs and actions - their behaviour - also known as attitude. Not al l but some, and those who are fully able to communicate - not criminals are prohibitide from their liberties - confined - locked away - extrajudicially - force medicated - drugged and confined against their will.

I don't disagree with voluntary confinement or treatment - but forced or coerced treatment orders and extrajudicial confinement is issued and a violation of human rights, medical ethics and the constitution of Canada.

They want money - they wouldn't be there if they had money... --- hooking or cops / csis / dia / foreign intelligence / BUM --- it is called poverty ... people arn't poor because they are nuts.. it is because they are poor. It isn't because they havn't had the oppourtunity it is because that is their oppourtunity - from the options they can weigh out --- poverty ain't hard to remove, you just need to give them money and they are no longer in poverty - not difficult is it?

Was howard hughes a bum, no. Was he nuts - probably not. Was he a dissident against the norm - hell yeah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Hughes

the guy was a super geek.

BTW travel outside the US and Canada and you can see people slling things or doing things at traffic lights too... it is the norm in places like mexico.

In mexico people used these like refreshment stops - the truckers liked them - I liked them... most of them were services not charities.

Edited October 28, 2010 by William Ashley

[Keepitsimple]

The elephant in the room has always been the Charter of Rights. When introduced, the Supreme Court ruled that you could not "force" someone to get treatment for mental illness or serious addiction......so all the institutions dumped their inmates out onto the streets. A large percentage of homeless are those people who should be living in institutions under proper care. Most of the rest are bums and beggars. But everyone's got their rights, you know! Oh what a caring society we are.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[M.Dancer]

Where's Mikedavid?

This should not come as a surprise; an EKOS poll published two days before the vote gave Mr. Ford 51.7 % of the vote of respondents born outside of Canada, compared to only 30.1 % for Mr. Smitherman.

[Shwa]

The observation? I never see immigrants sleeping on the streets, begging for money or trying to clean my car windows at traffic lights.

One wonders how your observations would change if access to, or existence of, subsidized housing were drastically reduced. Keeping in mind that a sense of familiarity with the environment might make many homeless people more comfortable with the idea than those who are not as familiar with the environment. But give them time.

In Montreal, homeless people on the street tend to be young white males or females with tattoos, piercings and pet dogs, or old white males or aboriginals of both sexes.

I suspect these are your observations without actually digging deeper into that fourth world. You might be surprised to note the variation of peoples that are either homeless and out of sight, or on the brink of being homeless.

Looking at them, I can't help but conclude that these people have had many opportunities in life - but they have invariably made every time a very bad choice.

Is being born with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder a choice? How about medical disabilities, mental illness, domestic violence? Does the wife choose to be beaten up by her abusive husband? I agree that there are poor choices involved - alcoholism and drug abuse - and even that some people choose to live on the street for one reason or another.

But let's not make the very serious mistake of lumping in all the homeless into some sort of easy-peasy categories that one speculates by casual observation.

And why have I never seen an Asian-American (I'm being PC here) homeless person begging for money? Instead, I commonly see some white kid with a bilingual sign (bad French) saying "No $, no food, plz help".

It could you you have "never seen" because one might not might be as visible as the other. For example, if the "some white kid" were to go to school, live in a shelter, and basically not sit ont he corner with the sign, he would be considered homeless.

-----

I have lived in Asia and travelled elsewhere, in very poor countries. Beggars in India are nothing like homeless people in North America.

Would you elaborate on this a little more please? Of course, casual observations are one thing, but it seems that you have something to contrast like-observations.

It seems to me that homelessness is a "champagne problem". It's a problem that occurs among rich people in rich societies who cannot take good decisions.

Again, there is the 'choice' factor to reconsider as well as they 'visibility' factor. But this is an interesting observation about cultural differences.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Shwa

[Michael Hardner]

Where's Mikedavid?

He's still going over polling results.

So Ekos accurately predicted the result to within the margin of error. I guess that's to be expected as it happens 19/20 times.

[Argus]

Have you ever seen a Chinese beggar? Or a beggar in a saree? How many Muslims go to food banks?

A hell of a lot of them in Ottawa, mostly Somalians. Whether they need to or not. Immigrants from certain countries are not at all shy of taking advantage of social service and benefit offerings, whether they qualify or not.

[The_Squid]

When introduced, the Supreme Court ruled that you could not "force" someone to get treatment for mental illness or serious addiction......so all the institutions dumped their inmates out onto the streets.

Simply not true. While the Consititution may have changed how the mentally ill are institutionalized in a legal manner, the fact remains that this is possible.

Government cutbacks are what have spurred the rise in homelessness of the mentally ill.

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2009/10/26/MairMentalIllnessCuts/

[bjre]

A hell of a lot of them in Ottawa, mostly Somalians. Whether they need to or not. Immigrants from certain countries are not at all shy of taking advantage of social service and benefit offerings, whether they qualify or not.

When a doctor can not work as a doctor, what can you expect him to do?

-- went back to China,

-- work as a labour,

-- ask for benefit,

Clearly, it is not the one who ask for benefit to be blamed, it is the one who ask him to come but not give him job to be blamed.

[ToadBrother]

Have you ever seen a Chinese beggar?

There are plenty to be found on the fringes of most major Chinese cities.

[ToadBrother]

Simply not true. While the Consititution may have changed how the mentally ill are institutionalized in a legal manner, the fact remains that this is possible.

Government cutbacks are what have spurred the rise in homelessness of the mentally ill.

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2009/10/26/MairMentalIllnessCuts/

That was certainly what fueled it in BC. When they began shutting down or scaling expensive psychiatric care facilities in favor of "reintegration", the whole impetus was to cheap out on taking care of the mentally ill. These people, of course, to one extent or another incapable of working, or often even managing their own affairs reliably, ultimately ended up out on the streets.

It was a despicable inhuman act by government bean counters.

[Moonlight Graham]

Looking at them, I can't help but conclude that these people have had many opportunities in life - but they have invariably made every time a very bad choice.

I have lived in Asia and travelled elsewhere, in very poor countries. Beggars in India are nothing like homeless people in North America.

It seems to me that homelessness is a "champagne problem". It's a problem that occurs among rich people in rich societies who cannot take good decisions.

Your conclusions are nothing but guesses, and they are grossly incorrect.

I have worked with a social agency that dealt with young people in their late-teens & 20's who are homeless or have been homeless. The vast majority of them have been abused as children sexually/physically. Many of them have run away or otherwise left home at a young age & live on the streets, or have been through "the system" being taken away from their parents as youth by Children's Aid Society or whatnot, been in and out of group homes, and ran away from those too. Even if they stay in those homes, they are completely f'ed up because their parents f'ed them up.

Many of them have serious drug or other addiction problems. Not because they are losers or idiots, but because their lives are complete shit with tremendous emotional/mental problems that most of us can't begin to imagine and thus they turn to drugs/alcohol as means to get through the days without killing themselves.

Many homeless people are actually very strong individuals, because so many others have or would have committed suicide if they were in the same situation. They are true survivors who keep going even in the worst possible human conditions (in Canada at least).

Also, it is very difficult and possibly inappropriate to compare homeless people in Canada/U.S, and those in poor countries like India. They are often homeless/poor for very different reasons.

edit: i invite you and everyone else to check out this video on addiction: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17384&pid=594207&st=0entry594207

Edited October 29, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[August1991]

A hell of a lot of them in Ottawa, mostly Somalians. Whether they need to or not. Immigrants from certain countries are not at all shy of taking advantage of social service and benefit offerings, whether they qualify or not.

Somalians? Argus, you really don't understand my OP.

Argus, who do you see sleeping on the streets in Ottawa? Who are the squeegee kids? I have never seen an Indian/Chinese/black squeegee kid. Argus, have you ever seen a Somalian sleeping on a sidewalk, or in an underground passage?

In Montreal, squeegee kids are young WASPs, male and female. Their French is imperfect, they have tattoos and piercings. (I generalize.)

Your conclusions are nothing but guesses, and they are grossly incorrect.

I have worked with a social agency that dealt with young people in their late-teens & 20's who are homeless or have been homeless. The vast majority of them have been abused as children sexually/physically.

....

Also, it is very difficult and possibly inappropriate to compare homeless people in Canada/U.S, and those in poor countries like India. They are often homeless/poor for very different reasons.

MG, I agree that my conclusions are mostly guesses. But I did provide a link to a Montreal study of homelessness, and I have made a conscious effort to see who is sleeping in the streets around me.

You state: "The vast majority of them have been abused as children sexually/physically." Do you mean that sexual/physical abuse only occurs among WASPs? If sexual/physical abuse is the cause of homelessness, then why is homelessness not general among different cultural groups?

----

I entirely agree that it is "inappropriate to compare homeless people in Canada/U.S, and those in poor countries like India." In Canada for example, a homeless person receives welfare and help from a social worker. In India, the situation is different. Homeless people in India have nothing.

IOW, homeless people in Canada need some other kind of help because what they receive now doesn't work. The State is wasting taxpayer's money.

There are plenty to be found on the fringes of most major Chinese cities.

In China, yes. But not in Canada. Edited October 29, 2010 by August1991

[myata]

Yes I agree. We're much better than them.

[Shwa]

There are plenty to be found on the fringes of most major Chinese cities.

Really? You mean all those beggars haven't immigrated to Canada yet? Because to some posters here, it seems that the only thing we are bringing in are other country's beggars. And one would think that China is a country full of desperate beggars since most of them live an unpleasant life in that failed culture over there.

Maybe the lack of Chinese beggars in Canadian streets is somehow tied into the quality of Chinese immigrant to Canada? Or maybe it is just a coincidence. Someone will have to do a study...

[William Ashley]

The elephant in the room has always been the Charter of Rights. When introduced, the Supreme Court ruled that you could not "force" someone to get treatment for mental illness or serious addiction......so all the institutions dumped their inmates out onto the streets. A large percentage of homeless are those people who should be living in institutions under proper care. Most of the rest are bums and beggars. But everyone's got their rights, you know! Oh what a caring society we are.

This is BS because forced treatment still happens, under the auspice of acts such as the mental health act -or a variety of forms that institute force treatment - by moving "holdings" outside of prisons into "diversions"

it is a loophole that is grossly abused by the justice system. A human rights breach and a disgusting disgrace.

Covering up the abuses with distortion and lies doesn't remove them it only makes them more of a perversion and corruption!

Edited October 29, 2010 by William Ashley

[Saipan]

have you ever seen a Somalian sleeping on a sidewalk, or in an underground passage?

Nope. They are too busy ripping our welfare system, and dealing.

[August1991]

Nope. They are too busy ripping our welfare system, and dealing.

Somalis ripping off our welfare system, and dealing? Maybe.

But why are Somalis also not begging, homeless? Why are most (all) the homeless people that I see are male, and white?

Edited October 31, 2010 by August1991

[Shwa]

Somalis ripping off our welfare system, and dealing? Maybe.

But why are Somalis also not begging, homeless? Why are most (all) the homeless people that I see are male, and white?

I think it might be more apt to say, why haven't you seen homeless or begging Somalis? I think your experience and interaction with beggars and the homeless might be limited to the narrow scope of public places you are using for your observations. There could be Somali or Chinese beggars, etc. in their communities that are not visible to you for plenty of reasons including the method of their begging and homelessness.

[Argus]

Argus, have you ever seen a Somalian sleeping on a sidewalk, or in an underground passage?

Well, their numbers are small, and half of them are in prison on any given night, so that tends to reduce those available to sleep on sidewalks, as well.

In all honesty your contention seems to be that immigrants from other countries are what exactly? More likely to have friends and family? I'd agree with that since most immigrants are coming from places which have a much higher degree of social interconnectedness than Canada with its nesting, stay-at-home, leave-me-alone culture.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Argus