Any UFC/MMA fans?

[Shady]

This is where winning a fight conflicts with entertainment value of a fight, because it was on display especially in that fight Dan Hardy lost to Anthony Johnson. The fans were booing because Dan Hardy isn't good enough to stop the takedowns from a good wrestler

It seems as though Dan Hardy hasn't learned anything from his fight with GSP. He still can't defend the take down. It was embarassing to watch.

[kimmy]

Hmmm, now I'm wondering why you didn't figure me as someone into martial arts!

Well, I said I didn't figure you as somebody who didn't watch MMA, which isn't quite the same thing. It's just been my observation that those of you who are ... uh, "more experienced" tend to think MMA is for classless young mooks, and consider it the downfall of civilized society. It's also been my observation that those who are somewhat left of center often despise combat sports of all stripes (as well as hockey or football), and would prefer to watch soccer or cricket or some other "world sport". Or despise all competitive sports, especially professional sports.

But those are stereotypes, of course.

This is where winning a fight conflicts with entertainment value of a fight, because it was on display especially in that fight Dan Hardy lost to Anthony Johnson. The fans were booing because Dan Hardy isn't good enough to stop the takedowns from a good wrestler, but he is strong enough in the hands to have good wrist control, and seems to have a decent guard. Nevertheless, he was having to expend a lot of energy to avoid the ground-and-pound, and you could see him fade noticably in round 3.

Bollocks. Anthony Johnson chose to do a bare minimum of work and made no real effort to advance his position or push for a finish. He was content to lay on top of Hardy for 3 rounds and let the judges decide. That's why the crowd was booing.

Johnson has a huge size and strength advantage over Hardy (or just about anybody else at Welterweight) and could have pushed for a finish, but he didn't.

I don't know what Joe Rogan and that other clown were watching, because they were talking about Johnson getting tired, while not noticing that Dana White's pet had run out of gas.

The reason they were talking about Johnson's gas tank is that Johnson cuts a ridiculous amount of weight to weigh in at 170 pounds. He's not just huge for a welterweight, he'd be big even as a middleweight. In fact, I've read that he's as much as 220 pounds between fights, which is completely absurd for a welterweight. I'm not even sure how that's medically possible. His issues making weight at 170 are documented around the interweb, and you can read about it for yourself. When you cut that much weight, conditioning is going to be a major factor. If you saw his fight against Josh Koscheck, you understand. He dominated when he was fresh, but got tired and beaten up once he ran out of gas. It's why he has so many short fight wins, and why once the fight goes past the first round he's got as many losses as wins.

Maybe they're suppose to keep puffing up this one dimensional fighter to make him seem a legitimate no.1 contender....which reminds me, after three losses, why is Hardy still the no.1 contender? Anyway, if the ref had kept standing them up, it would have improved Hardy's chances somewhat, so regardless of what the drunken fools in the crowd think, I'm glad the ref let the fight take it's natural course!

Who says Hardy is a #1 contender? I doubt he'll ever fight for the title again.

Here's how Hardy won the title shot. During the title fight in which Georges St Pierre was beating the living piss out of Thiago Alves, who'd been built up as some kind of human destroyer, Joe Rogan asked in disbelief "who do you put against GSP next?!" meaning he couldn't see anybody who stood a chance. A moment later, he answered that question: "Joe Silva says Martin Kampmann or Mike Swick".

So Martin Kampmann vs Mike Swick had been built up as a #1 contenders match. But then Swick got injured, and Kampmann fought (and lost to) Paul Daley. Swick returned from his injury, and Dan Hardy beat him up. So both Hardy and Daley beat the original "#1 contenders", and then Paul Daley proceeded to get beat by Koscheck and then thrown out of UFC for being a moron, so Hardy was the one left, with Koscheck right after him.

Oh, they already crossed that threshold a long time ago! I think Tito Ortiz was one of the first to use the features of fighting in an octogon cage to his advantage, by pushing an opponent into the cage and make escape from ground-and-pound more difficult. A lot of stuff that works in cagefighting, does not work as well in a streetfight,

I was thinking more in the line of creating a general recipe for success that works in an MMA fight. Take a high-calibre NCAA wrestler (with all that entails: a great athlete with strong takedowns and lots of practice cutting weight) and teach him a bit of boxing and teach him enough BJJ to avoid submission attempts, and you've got an instant UFC fighter. It's a recipe that works very well, and has led to an awful lot of very similar fighters in UFC ranks, and a lot of fights that look like replays of each other.

In general, I would say that it's not a good idea to put someone on the fast track, but Lesnar has so much natural abilities that he will either be a champion or a top contender for a long time to come...assuming he stays healthy of course. What he lacks in skill or knowledge is made up for by brute strength and surprising quickness. I noticed this in his first fight with Frank Mir, who couldn't stop the takedowns. The only reason he won that first fight was because of Lesnar's lack of expertise...stepping over an opponent on the ground, and getting caught in a submission leg hold.

They threw Lesnar in with the sharks from day one, and he did pretty good. His wrestling base and natural athleticism are so strong that they're very difficult for any opponent to deal with. Carwin nearly beat him because he had enough takedown defense to give himself a chance to land some punches. Velasquez beat him because his wrestling ability is so strong that he was able to regain his feet. If Cain wasn't a top-tier wrestler himself, all his striking ability would have counted for nothing, because once Brock had him on the mat it would have been over.

If Bisping was able to get by Dan Henderson, I'm sure they would have tried to maneuver him into position for a title shot. They may have been put off by some weak performances like his undeserved win against Matt Hamill. I guess that's why Dan Hardy started becoming the focus of attention for the British UFC franchise.

If he'd beaten Henderson, he'd have been as legitimate a challenger as anybody else in UFC at the time. Henderson himself would have got a title shot, except that UFC wasn't willing to pay him as much as he thought he deserved.

Bisping is better than some of the guys they've fed to Anderson Silva over the years. (Patrick Cote, particularly.) Hamill beat Bisping, there's no question in my mind about that. So did Evans. Both those guys are monster wrestlers in the Light Heavyweight division. Henderson and Wanderlei also beat him, and they're more in his size bracket (like Bisping, they've fought at LHW but are probably more suited to middleweight.) I'd be interested in seeing Bisping fight guys like Sonnen, Marquardt, Belfort, and Franklin.

-k

[Oleg Bach]

I don`t like any sport that has blood envolved..specially guys with flattened ears and tatooed necks - ripping each other apart because they are to dumb and emotionally disturbed to do anything else.

[kimmy]

guys with flattened ears and tatooed necks - ripping each other apart because they are to dumb and emotionally disturbed to do anything else

That's the mental picture I have of dinnertime at the Bach household.

-k

[WIP]

Well, I said I didn't figure you as somebody who didn't watch MMA, which isn't quite the same thing. It's just been my observation that those of you who are ... uh, "more experienced" tend to think MMA is for classless young mooks, and consider it the downfall of civilized society.

My interest in martial arts comes from training with an older brother who boxed amateur, but decided against turning pro, wrestling in high school, learning jiu jitsu and a modest amount in some other disciplines, which gives me a little more appreciation for what's going on in a match, than a lot of spectators who are just looking for blood, or a knockout etc. There are street thugs who watch UFC and other MMA fights, hoping to learn something to use in a fight; but success in any fight sports relies on hours of training, because the techniques have to become almost a reflexive response to be effective.

It's also been my observation that those who are somewhat left of center often despise combat sports of all stripes (as well as hockey or football), and would prefer to watch soccer or cricket or some other "world sport". Or despise all competitive sports, especially professional sports.

But those are stereotypes, of course.

I guess! What may be factual is that pacifism is found almost exclusively on the left, while the right revels in fighting and warfare etc. For myself, I've never been one to look for fights, and never had the need to fight. When I was young and training with my older brother, there wasn't anyone at school who could hurt me with a body punch, or connect if they tried to go for my head...so, I didn't even have to throw any punches myself -- just parry a few of them off till their forearms started hurting...and then they'd usually have to give up and walk away.

Bollocks. Anthony Johnson chose to do a bare minimum of work and made no real effort to advance his position or push for a finish. He was content to lay on top of Hardy for 3 rounds and let the judges decide. That's why the crowd was booing.

Johnson was getting in the shots...maybe not devastating shots, but enough to make Hardy work really hard in the guard position. I'm glad the ref let things go, because they usually stand them up, especially when the crowd isn't happy. But, if Johnson wasn't doing enough, what does that say about Hardy? It was up to him to stop the takedowns, and then once down, work for a way to reverse his position or work for a submission hold from the guard. I'm reminded of an overhyped heavyweight striker that the UFC picked up (I think from Strikeforce) a couple of years ago - Heath Herring. In his UFC debut, he kept getting taken down by a so-so wrestler, and time after time was complaining to the ref.

Johnson has a huge size and strength advantage over Hardy (or just about anybody else at Welterweight) and could have pushed for a finish, but he didn't.

Well, we don't know that! We weren't in the cage with him. It's possible that he was getting tired, or maybe he had to pull his left arm out of so many armlock attempts, that he was cautious because he was worried about getting caught in a submission hold. One thing I'm pretty sure of - he wouldn't be able to control GSP like he did with Dan Hardy.

The reason they were talking about Johnson's gas tank is that Johnson cuts a ridiculous amount of weight to weigh in at 170 pounds. He's not just huge for a welterweight, he'd be big even as a middleweight. In fact, I've read that he's as much as 220 pounds between fights, which is completely absurd for a welterweight. I'm not even sure how that's medically possible. His issues making weight at 170 are documented around the interweb, and you can read about it for yourself. When you cut that much weight, conditioning is going to be a major factor. If you saw his fight against Josh Koscheck, you understand. He dominated when he was fresh, but got tired and beaten up once he ran out of gas. It's why he has so many short fight wins, and why once the fight goes past the first round he's got as many losses as wins.

I didn't see his fight with Koscheck, but he appeared to pace himself well in the Hardy fight. There's no standard rules to apply for cutting weight. Some athletes can do it well, others struggle to cut even a few pounds. A lot of boxers and wrestlers have to cut a lot of weight to make their divisions.

In boxing what usually happens is that fighters can do it relatively easily when they're young, but once they reach 30 it becomes a struggle to make weight, and they end up having to move up a division or two or three. A prime example would be Tommy Hearns, who scratched because of injury in the 76 Olympic Trials when he started boxing as a junior welterweight, turned pro as a welterweight, and fought in that division for several years even though his weight could shoot up to 190 or more when he wasn't training for a fight. And he ended up having to finish his career as a cruiserweight.

Who says Hardy is a #1 contender? I doubt he'll ever fight for the title again.

I don't have any reference for UFC rankings, but I came across a debate on Hardy's no.1 ranking on an online sports site. Maybe his no.1 ranking was prior to that fight.

Here's how Hardy won the title shot. During the title fight in which Georges St Pierre was beating the living piss out of Thiago Alves, who'd been built up as some kind of human destroyer, Joe Rogan asked in disbelief "who do you put against GSP next?!" meaning he couldn't see anybody who stood a chance. A moment later, he answered that question: "Joe Silva says Martin Kampmann or Mike Swick".

So Martin Kampmann vs Mike Swick had been built up as a #1 contenders match. But then Swick got injured, and Kampmann fought (and lost to) Paul Daley. Swick returned from his injury, and Dan Hardy beat him up. So both Hardy and Daley beat the original "#1 contenders", and then Paul Daley proceeded to get beat by Koscheck and then thrown out of UFC for being a moron, so Hardy was the one left, with Koscheck right after him.

What about Jon Fitch or Jake Shields? Or Carlos Condit! There are other big names that should have a shot at the title.

They threw Lesnar in with the sharks from day one, and he did pretty good. His wrestling base and natural athleticism are so strong that they're very difficult for any opponent to deal with. Carwin nearly beat him because he had enough takedown defense to give himself a chance to land some punches. Velasquez beat him because his wrestling ability is so strong that he was able to regain his feet. If Cain wasn't a top-tier wrestler himself, all his striking ability would have counted for nothing, because once Brock had him on the mat it would have been over.

Considering how little experience Brock Lesnar had before stepping in to the UFC, he has done better than anyone could have expected. Earlier on it seemed like Dana White wanted him to fail, because he wanted Lesnar to get some experience in a minor circuit like Bellator or Strikeforce before coming in to fight in the UFC. Lately, White has come around to view Lesnar as being a legitimate top ranked heavyweight. As he gains experience, he'll be a more formidable opponent, but, what has really surprised me in the last few years is how much the heavyweight division has improved of late. The heavyweights now have to train just as hard as the lighter divisions, and can't come in 40 or 50 pounds overweight. Shane Carwin is a big, strong, fast wrestler like Lesnar, with good hands, but Lesnar one that fight because Carwin ran out of gas...and that's going to be a big problem if he fights Velasquez, who looks like the most complete fighter in the heavyweight division, or even if he goes up against Lesnar in a rematch. One thing for sure, it looks like the heavyweight division is now too strong for former light heavyweight champions to come in and claim the title, like Randy Couture did!

Since you're really into boxing and MMA, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on the fledgling sports of female boxing and MMA. Just recently there was an announcement that Zuffa (UFC owners) has bought out Strikeforce, one of the few MMA syndicates that had female fighters. Dana White has previously said that he's not interested in having women in the UFC (aside from ringcard girls) but says that they will honor all of Strikeforce's existing contracts. So, now the most prominent names like Gina Carano, who trains in Randy Couture's club, are wondering if they are going to be stuck in some sort of limbo, with no more fights after this year, and no contracts renewed.

I haven't watched very many of these girlfights, but one thing that occurred to me is that most of them seem to have adopted styles of fighting that the guys use...no doubt because of the way they're trained, or that fact that many of them have started in the sport because they were with men who were MMA fighters. Point is most of them spend too much time fighting standup, even though they're not very good at it, and except for some of the Japanese girls I've seen, they don't seem well grounded in jiu jitsu, even though a lot of jiu jitsu techniques rely on using the legs rather than upper body strength.

[Oleg Bach]

That's the mental picture I have of dinnertime at the Bach household.

-k

I am more civilized than you imagine. Tats are a no no - in the family....Actually my original family - my three brothers and sisters were more like you describe - A long time ago my sister gave her brothers 5 gallons of high end Mexican booze.....in about two days mum had to pour it down the sink...we were drinking it by the mug full. It was an interesting family..we lived on a lake...and my fathers friends were pretty classy - once he died - we reverted back to barbarism.

[kimmy]

My interest in martial arts comes from training with an older brother who boxed amateur, but decided against turning pro, wrestling in high school, learning jiu jitsu and a modest amount in some other disciplines, which gives me a little more appreciation for what's going on in a match, than a lot of spectators who are just looking for blood, or a knockout etc. There are street thugs who watch UFC and other MMA fights, hoping to learn something to use in a fight; but success in any fight sports relies on hours of training, because the techniques have to become almost a reflexive response to be effective.

And there are chicks who think they're bad-ass because they watched UFC Unleashed with their boyfriend a few times. Or some chick who thinks she's a kickboxer because she does cardio kickboxing. Get a bit of liquor into people and it's surprising what sort of ideas they get in their heads.

I do see quite a few young men wearing MMA-style shirts around, and I'd be very surprised if many of them have any actual training. I suspect that they just want to identify with it because that's what they perceive as a symbol of some kind of male warrior type mentality. I suspect that before MMA was a big deal, the same guys would picked something else as a symbol of the masculinity they wish to identify with. Guys who can't skate wearing hockey jerseys, guys who've never served wearing military-style gear, guys who've only played touch football wearing football jerseys, things like that.

I didn't see his fight with Koscheck, but he appeared to pace himself well in the Hardy fight. There's no standard rules to apply for cutting weight. Some athletes can do it well, others struggle to cut even a few pounds. A lot of boxers and wrestlers have to cut a lot of weight to make their divisions.

To me it's part of the sameness that MMA is at risk of turning into, that generic recipe for success that involves using takedowns and top control to get a decision on the judges scorecards. If MMA continues to go that direction I'll quit watching (and probably lots of others will too). Johnson was able to employ that recipe to his advantage, and good for him, but bad for the spectators and bad for the sport.

I don't have any reference for UFC rankings, but I came across a debate on Hardy's no.1 ranking on an online sports site. Maybe his no.1 ranking was prior to that fight.

I don't believe UFC has any formal rankings. If you saw rankings, it was compiled by fans, and if it had Hardy at #1 it was probably pretty old. The UFC's rankings exist inside Joe Silva's head, and are probably based on some combination of winning streak, wins over quality opponents, and "buzz".

What about Jon Fitch or Jake Shields? Or Carlos Condit! There are other big names that should have a shot at the title.

Jake Shields was still fighting in Strikeforce at the time. Condit had just arrived in UFC at the time, and lost his debut fight to Martin Kampmann. Jon Fitch had fought GSP just a year earlier and was beaten so badly that out of respect for Mrs Fitch and the little Fitches I don't think there should be a rematch. They literally ran out of people for GSP to fight; he'd beaten everybody worth fighting in the division at the time, and Hardy was on a considerable winning streak, including a win over a guy they'd tagged as a possible #1 contender in Mike Swick.

Since you're really into boxing and MMA, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on the fledgling sports of female boxing and MMA. Just recently there was an announcement that Zuffa (UFC owners) has bought out Strikeforce, one of the few MMA syndicates that had female fighters. Dana White has previously said that he's not interested in having women in the UFC (aside from ringcard girls) but says that they will honor all of Strikeforce's existing contracts. So, now the most prominent names like Gina Carano, who trains in Randy Couture's club, are wondering if they are going to be stuck in some sort of limbo, with no more fights after this year, and no contracts renewed.

I think for now Dana has said that Strikeforce will continue to operate as an independent promotion. Who knows how long that'll last.

I haven't watched very many of these girlfights, but one thing that occurred to me is that most of them seem to have adopted styles of fighting that the guys use...no doubt because of the way they're trained, or that fact that many of them have started in the sport because they were with men who were MMA fighters. Point is most of them spend too much time fighting standup, even though they're not very good at it, and except for some of the Japanese girls I've seen, they don't seem well grounded in jiu jitsu, even though a lot of jiu jitsu techniques rely on using the legs rather than upper body strength.

I have also not seen very many womens' matches. Most of those I have seen have been lopsided affairs involving Gina Carano or Cyborg Santos that left me thinking that womens' MMA has a long way to go in terms of the calibre of competition and the level of skills. I've often found myself thinking I could do just as well as the fighters I'm watching. One fighter you might like is Shayna Baszler, who uses almost exclusively submission grappling techniques. You can probably find videos of her around.

-k

[Oleg Bach]

The woman who's fathers taught them the manly punch with impact will do well...those trained by mean spirited spiteful mothers will just flail at the air...fighting is about impact and stealth - emotion should be put aside. The best combatants are those who keep a cool head...the worst and most dangerous are the self abusers who love pain...Nothing more scarey than attempting to defeat a smile.

[dre]

To me it's part of the sameness that MMA is at risk of turning into, that generic recipe for success that involves using takedowns and top control to get a decision on the judges scorecards. If MMA continues to go that direction I'll quit watching (and probably lots of others will too). Johnson was able to employ that recipe to his advantage, and good for him, but bad for the spectators and bad for the sport.

I dont have any problems with those fights as long as the fighters are active. If the guy on top isnt active you stand them back up. And fans today are increasingly appreciative of good ground work as they get to know the sport better.

Heres a quick breakdown of fights in the UFC since 2010.

Total Fights = 170

Fights Ending By KO = 45 or 26.47%

Fights Ending By SUB = 42 or 24.71%

Fights Ending By Dec = 82 or 48.24% (Includes 1 Draw)

Fights Ending By DQ = 1 or 0.58%

Almost half of the fights go to decision, compared to only about 30% in strikeforce... but thats just because the fighters in the UFC are way better and they dont gas out after 10 minutes, and the matchups are generally more even.

As the fighters keep getting better, we will probably see even more fights go to a decision.

Fans that dont like wrestling/grappling/jujitsu should be watching boxing or K1.

[kimmy]

I dont have any problems with those fights as long as the fighters are active. If the guy on top isnt active you stand them back up. And fans today are increasingly appreciative of good ground work as they get to know the sport better.

Most UFC fans now understand good ground work... which is why so many people were booing during the Johnson-Hardy fight. Most fans recognize when a guy is dogging it. And Johnson was dogging it. Conserving energy, doing a bare minimum of work to avoid getting stood up... and he was still gassed by the end of the 3rd round.

-k

[Bryan]

One thing the early UFCs did better than the current ruleset, IMO: no judges. You had to take the win, no one was going to hand it to you on points.

[Jack Weber]

My interest in martial arts comes from training with an older brother who boxed amateur, but decided against turning pro, wrestling in high school, learning jiu jitsu and a modest amount in some other disciplines, which gives me a little more appreciation for what's going on in a match, than a lot of spectators who are just looking for blood, or a knockout etc. There are street thugs who watch UFC and other MMA fights, hoping to learn something to use in a fight; but success in any fight sports relies on hours of training, because the techniques have to become almost a reflexive response to be effective.

I guess! What may be factual is that pacifism is found almost exclusively on the left, while the right revels in fighting and warfare etc. For myself, I've never been one to look for fights, and never had the need to fight. When I was young and training with my older brother, there wasn't anyone at school who could hurt me with a body punch, or connect if they tried to go for my head...so, I didn't even have to throw any punches myself -- just parry a few of them off till their forearms started hurting...and then they'd usually have to give up and walk away.

Johnson was getting in the shots...maybe not devastating shots, but enough to make Hardy work really hard in the guard position. I'm glad the ref let things go, because they usually stand them up, especially when the crowd isn't happy. But, if Johnson wasn't doing enough, what does that say about Hardy? It was up to him to stop the takedowns, and then once down, work for a way to reverse his position or work for a submission hold from the guard. I'm reminded of an overhyped heavyweight striker that the UFC picked up (I think from Strikeforce) a couple of years ago - Heath Herring. In his UFC debut, he kept getting taken down by a so-so wrestler, and time after time was complaining to the ref.

Well, we don't know that! We weren't in the cage with him. It's possible that he was getting tired, or maybe he had to pull his left arm out of so many armlock attempts, that he was cautious because he was worried about getting caught in a submission hold. One thing I'm pretty sure of - he wouldn't be able to control GSP like he did with Dan Hardy.

I didn't see his fight with Koscheck, but he appeared to pace himself well in the Hardy fight. There's no standard rules to apply for cutting weight. Some athletes can do it well, others struggle to cut even a few pounds. A lot of boxers and wrestlers have to cut a lot of weight to make their divisions.

In boxing what usually happens is that fighters can do it relatively easily when they're young, but once they reach 30 it becomes a struggle to make weight, and they end up having to move up a division or two or three. A prime example would be Tommy Hearns, who scratched because of injury in the 76 Olympic Trials when he started boxing as a junior welterweight, turned pro as a welterweight, and fought in that division for several years even though his weight could shoot up to 190 or more when he wasn't training for a fight. And he ended up having to finish his career as a cruiserweight.

I don't have any reference for UFC rankings, but I came across a debate on Hardy's no.1 ranking on an online sports site. Maybe his no.1 ranking was prior to that fight.

What about Jon Fitch or Jake Shields? Or Carlos Condit! There are other big names that should have a shot at the title.

Considering how little experience Brock Lesnar had before stepping in to the UFC, he has done better than anyone could have expected. Earlier on it seemed like Dana White wanted him to fail, because he wanted Lesnar to get some experience in a minor circuit like Bellator or Strikeforce before coming in to fight in the UFC. Lately, White has come around to view Lesnar as being a legitimate top ranked heavyweight. As he gains experience, he'll be a more formidable opponent, but, what has really surprised me in the last few years is how much the heavyweight division has improved of late. The heavyweights now have to train just as hard as the lighter divisions, and can't come in 40 or 50 pounds overweight. Shane Carwin is a big, strong, fast wrestler like Lesnar, with good hands, but Lesnar one that fight because Carwin ran out of gas...and that's going to be a big problem if he fights Velasquez, who looks like the most complete fighter in the heavyweight division, or even if he goes up against Lesnar in a rematch. One thing for sure, it looks like the heavyweight division is now too strong for former light heavyweight champions to come in and claim the title, like Randy Couture did!

Since you're really into boxing and MMA, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on the fledgling sports of female boxing and MMA. Just recently there was an announcement that Zuffa (UFC owners) has bought out Strikeforce, one of the few MMA syndicates that had female fighters. Dana White has previously said that he's not interested in having women in the UFC (aside from ringcard girls) but says that they will honor all of Strikeforce's existing contracts. So, now the most prominent names like Gina Carano, who trains in Randy Couture's club, are wondering if they are going to be stuck in some sort of limbo, with no more fights after this year, and no contracts renewed.

I haven't watched very many of these girlfights, but one thing that occurred to me is that most of them seem to have adopted styles of fighting that the guys use...no doubt because of the way they're trained, or that fact that many of them have started in the sport because they were with men who were MMA fighters. Point is most of them spend too much time fighting standup, even though they're not very good at it, and except for some of the Japanese girls I've seen, they don't seem well grounded in jiu jitsu, even though a lot of jiu jitsu techniques rely on using the legs rather than upper body strength.

Good call on Tommy Hearns...

As a welterweight and even a Junior Middle he was almost freakishly built..Over 6 feet and 147 pounds when he fought Pipino Cuevas.He dominated Cuevas,who was no slouch and had a devastating left hook..

He's one of the few fighters who never lost their power as they gained weight...He just could never fight wel going backwards...

As for women Boxing,there are good women boxers out there...The problem is the depth of talent once you get past the top two or three in any division...

A couple of examples...

I remember there was supposed to be a bout between Lucia Ruyker and Christy Martin...It never came off,mainly because of Don King,but beyond those two there really was'nt anyone else either one could fight for a good payday...

Laila Ali,who I don't think is that good of a boxer,was supposed to fight Anne Wolfe,who is a very good boxer...The problems were that:

1.Ali could make more money fighting the likes of Jacqui Frazier-Lyde based on the last names only...

2.Wolfe was high risk/little reward

And because there was very little else in that division beyond those two,and Ali would'nt fight Wolfe,it never came off...

[kimmy]

One thing the early UFCs did better than the current ruleset, IMO: no judges. You had to take the win, no one was going to hand it to you on points.

No athletics commission is going to sanction unlimited-time bouts. Had they stayed as they were, they'd have remained a circus side-show of dubious individuals fighting on Indian reservations.

-k

[Jack Weber]

No athletics commission is going to sanction unlimited-time bouts. Had they stayed as they were, they'd have remained a circus side-show of dubious individuals fighting on Indian reservations.

-k

Are you suggesting The Mohegan Sun is not a viable venue for the fistic arts?

[kimmy]

Are you suggesting The Mohegan Sun is not a viable venue for the fistic arts?

I suppose the fighters might get fired up by the cries of "Bingo!"

-k

[Jack Weber]

I suppose the fighters might get fired up by the cries of "Bingo!"

-k

Actually,there's a big arena at that casino...Smaller than the MGM Grand Garden,but about 10,000 seats..

They have Friday Night Fights telecasts from there quite often....

Not alot of Bingo at the Baccarat tables...

[kimmy]

Unsanctioned no-rules bouts wouldn't have ever achieved mainstream status regardless of how big a venue was available.

-k

[Jack Weber]

Unsanctioned no-rules bouts wouldn't have ever achieved mainstream status regardless of how big a venue was available.

-k

No...

They're called Tough Man competitions and no one,other than braindead lunkheads beating their "brains" in for free beers,would care....

[Oleg Bach]

Unsanctioned no-rules bouts wouldn't have ever achieved mainstream status regardless of how big a venue was available.

-k

Odd woman who likes to see men fight. -k just might be a foot ball fan also....eeeeh!

[kimmy]

Odd woman who likes to see men fight. -k just might be a foot ball fan also....eeeeh!

I used to watch football with dad every Sunday morning.

A lot of women like watching men fight, Oleg. There's something about a display of masculine prowess that gets a woman's wheels turning. She loves knowing that her guy can take care of business, whether it's punching out some jerk or replacing the burned out alternator in her car or even just whipping ass at the pool table or baseball diamond. As a champion of old-fashioned manliness, I think you'd completely get it.

-k

[WIP]

And there are chicks who think they're bad-ass because they watched UFC Unleashed with their boyfriend a few times. Or some chick who thinks she's a kickboxer because she does cardio kickboxing. Get a bit of liquor into people and it's surprising what sort of ideas they get in their heads.

I think it would be a good idea for most women to learn some martial arts for self defense; but if there are some who think that cardio kickboxing classes are going to teach anything useful, that's a bad thing, since they could have an unreasonable sense of overconfidence.

I do see quite a few young men wearing MMA-style shirts around, and I'd be very surprised if many of them have any actual training. I suspect that they just want to identify with it because that's what they perceive as a symbol of some kind of male warrior type mentality. I suspect that before MMA was a big deal, the same guys would picked something else as a symbol of the masculinity they wish to identify with. Guys who can't skate wearing hockey jerseys, guys who've never served wearing military-style gear, guys who've only played touch football wearing football jerseys, things like that.

Maybe UFC apparel is replacing the WWE crap! I could never figure out what was supposed to be macho about wearing a Steve Austin t-shirt.

To me it's part of the sameness that MMA is at risk of turning into, that generic recipe for success that involves using takedowns and top control to get a decision on the judges scorecards. If MMA continues to go that direction I'll quit watching (and probably lots of others will too). Johnson was able to employ that recipe to his advantage, and good for him, but bad for the spectators and bad for the sport.

See, I'm not saying your wrong...my point is that if the UFC values money and impressing the crowd more than allowing an open fight within the limitations of UFC rules and gear, then it won't seem legitimate to fans who don't want MMA turned into kickboxing.

I don't believe UFC has any formal rankings. If you saw rankings, it was compiled by fans, and if it had Hardy at #1 it was probably pretty old. The UFC's rankings exist inside Joe Silva's head, and are probably based on some combination of winning streak, wins over quality opponents, and "buzz".

So that's why I never noticed a page or a tab for rankings whenever I went on UFC's website. I'm surprised they don't have a formal ranking system; I would have though this would have been essential when UFC went from being a round-robin tournament to individual matches. No wonder the arguments over fighters gets so nasty.

This is also something that touches on one of the biggest beefs about the way the UFC is operated. For all of the corruption that goes on in boxing, there's no one in control of the whole entire sport. There are likely too many sanctioning organizations, but one thing that boxers have that UFC fighters don't, is the capacity to act independently. The sanctioning bodies may demand that a champion fight certain contenders or risk losing the belt, but in the UFC, everybody fights who Dana White says they have to fight. The operation is more similar to the WWE than to boxing. And if they put more emphasis on entertainment than sport, the UFC will be almost identical to the WWE.

Jake Shields was still fighting in Strikeforce at the time. Condit had just arrived in UFC at the time, and lost his debut fight to Martin Kampmann. Jon Fitch had fought GSP just a year earlier and was beaten so badly that out of respect for Mrs Fitch and the little Fitches I don't think there should be a rematch. They literally ran out of people for GSP to fight; he'd beaten everybody worth fighting in the division at the time, and Hardy was on a considerable winning streak, including a win over a guy they'd tagged as a possible #1 contender in Mike Swick.

As you can see, I watch some of the fights, but have never bothered to keep track of the play by play. Obviously Jake Shields is really going to be hyped now that he's in the main event against GSP....so we'll see just how good he really is! I'm sure Dana White wants someone else as welterweight champion. When SPIKE has rebroadcast some of the older pay-per-view events, they've skipped over GSP's matches.

I have also not seen very many womens' matches. Most of those I have seen have been lopsided affairs involving Gina Carano or Cyborg Santos that left me thinking that womens' MMA has a long way to go in terms of the calibre of competition and the level of skills. I've often found myself thinking I could do just as well as the fighters I'm watching. One fighter you might like is Shayna Baszler, who uses almost exclusively submission grappling techniques. You can probably find videos of her around.

-k

I was just checking Youtube and came up with one where Shayna Baszler got rocked by Cyborg. Early on it appeared that Shayna had Cyborg caught in a knee bar, but couldn't hold on to it. It didn't look like a good position to go for a knee bar, especially early in the match. I don't know how many weight divisions they have in women's MMA, but I think that one I saw who was an impressive grappler was

who, obviously fights only in Japan, because all of her videos are in Japanese. This one was apparently a title fight against a stronger opponent. It seems that her jiu jitsu is so good, that she is able to control most of her opponents without having any advantage in upper body strength.

[Jack Weber]

This is also something that touches on one of the biggest beefs about the way the UFC is operated. For all of the corruption that goes on in boxing, there's no one in control of the whole entire sport. There are likely too many sanctioning organizations, but one thing that boxers have that UFC fighters don't, is the capacity to act independently. The sanctioning bodies may demand that a champion fight certain contenders or risk losing the belt, but in the UFC, everybody fights who Dana White says they have to fight. The operation is more similar to the WWE than to boxing. And if they put more emphasis on entertainment than sport, the UFC will be almost identical to the WWE.

Wait a minute...

I can't speak for UFC,because I don't follow it,but if it essentially run by one man then it's exactly like Vince McMahon's WWE...

It's a bit of a misnomer to think that boxers are free agents...Don King,Bob Arum,Main Events (The Duva's),Gary Shaw,the Goosens,Golden Boy etc all have connections with the major sanctioning bodies (WBC,WBA,IBF)

These promoters all have connections with cable and PPV networks...

Free agents in boxing don't get very far because the fighter is essentially on his own to negotiate with all that above him...

Another thing about mandatory challengers...

The rankings of the Alphabet Organizations have been manipiulated for years to help out certain promoters...There has always been rumblings that the WBC,and Jose Sulaiman,is in Don Kings hip pocket.We have proof of this in the pay for rankings scandal in the mid '90's involving the IBF's founder Bob Lee...

Just a heads up,if it's rankings and REAL champioships you want look at The Ring magazine rankings,it's beltholders,and,it's Champioship Policy...

It's the one that should be followed and cuts through the crap of the Alphabet Organizations...

[Shady]

As you can see, I watch some of the fights, but have never bothered to keep track of the play by play. Obviously Jake Shields is really going to be hyped now that he's in the main event against GSP....so we'll see just how good he really is! I'm sure Dana White wants someone else as welterweight champion. When SPIKE has rebroadcast some of the older pay-per-view events, they've skipped over GSP's matches.

They never skip over GSP matches. I'm not sure what rebroadcasts you're referring to. The only time fights get skipped is if they're hyping an upcoming fight, and concentrating on two particular fighters. Dana White loves GSP. GSP is one of the most popular fighters in the organization. Lesnar and Silva being the only other fighters that might be a head of him.

[Shady]

Wait a minute...

I can't speak for UFC,because I don't follow it,but if it essentially run by one man then it's exactly like Vince McMahon's WWE...

Yes, exactly like the WWE, except it isn't fake. Other than that, it's exactly like it.

Dana White's not much different than Gary Bettman, or David Stern, or Bud Selig, or Roger Goodell.

[Jack Weber]

Yes, exactly like the WWE, except it isn't fake. Other than that, it's exactly like it.

Dana White's not much different than Gary Bettman, or David Stern, or Bud Selig, or Roger Goodell.

Erm...Because I was obviously talking about what goes on in the ring...Trapezoid...Or whatever they call it...

As usual,your professorial skills at comprehension are on full display...