Any UFC/MMA fans?

[dre]

His striking is certainly passable, but Koschek is a pretty one dimensional wrestler, and GSP just physically dominated Penn in every way.

I think the threat of GSP's takedowns really hampers his opponents ability to strike effectively and makes GSP's striking look far better than it actually is.

His striking is certainly passable, but Koschek is a pretty one dimensional wrestler, and GSP just physically dominated Penn in every way.

Youre confusing striking with knockout power. When it comes to tactical striking GSP is one of the best strikers in the UFC. He probably has the best jab in all of MMA, and he punches straight down the middle which makes his punches a lot harder to block. He doesnt throw power punches but thats because hes trained not to.

His striking is certainly passable, but Koschek is a pretty one dimensional wrestler, and GSP just physically dominated Penn in every way.

No he didnt. GSP didnt even try to wrestle with Kos once a couple of his takedowns had been stuffed. He won the fight purely with tactical boxing, and completely controlled the fight with his jab which is almost unheard of in an MMA fight.

[Moonlight Graham]

GSPs striking is fantastic. Hes got the best jab in MMA. Broke Kos's skull with it, and BJ Pens nose. The reason some people think George isnt a good striker is because he doesnt throw huge looping power punches but the only reason he doesnt throw those is because they leave you vunlerable. He never puts more than about 2/3's power into a punch and theyre all straight shots that are hard to block.

Great point, i forgot about the Koscheck fight. GSP completely mangled his face with those jabs and he was so fast and accurate Kos could do nothing to stop it. I think GSP is the more well-rounded fighter than Silva. Like i said, Silva's takedown defense is sloppy and he is somewhat sloppy overall, his amazing natural athletic ability has made him cocky and he makes enough mistakes & provides openings to leave him vulnerable to a fighter of GSP's caliber to take advantage of.

GSP is a perfectionist. He gets mad at himself for every little mistake he makes in a match, even when he wins. That gives him a good advantage since he's never sloppy.

But i just love Silva. So exciting to watch. GSP is awesome, but he's more boring and he doesn't finish, he's such a perfectionist that he's too afraid to make a mistake by going for a big hit that could miss and leave him open. That's why i think Silva vs Bones Jones would be so exciting because they are both athletic freaks and aggressive, but also sloppy where they each make mistakes. 2 very similar fighters. I would be afraid of GSP squirming on top of Silva on the mat for 5 rounds.

[Moonlight Graham]

Put GSP in a straight striking match vs. the top strikers in his division, and GSP is in for a world of hurt.

He's an excellent striker. However it's kind of moot if we're talking a GSP-Silva fighter. GSP isn't a great knockout striker so he'd be a fool to stand with Silva, so it would be GSP going for takedowns all match.

Then again, Silva wouldn't be a fool (or would he? lol) so i'm sure in a GSP-Silva fight Silva would (or should) work his butt off on his takedown defense. Hopefully his cockiness wouldn't take over and he'd ignore this weakness.

The one thing i don't like about Silva, besides his cockiness and ring antics, is that he's a bit of a coward & afraid to get hit. He starts up some of his antics trying to divert attention from the fact that he doesn't want to strike first and leave himself open. Remember his last fight last month when he just stood in the ring in the 1st round circling Belfort for like a minute waiting for him to attack first.

[dre]

Great point, i forgot about the Koscheck fight. GSP completely mangled his face with those jabs and he was so fast and accurate Kos could do nothing to stop it. I think GSP is the more well-rounded fighter than Silva. Like i said, Silva's takedown defense is sloppy and he is somewhat sloppy overall, his amazing natural athletic ability has made him cocky and he makes enough mistakes & provides openings to leave him vulnerable to a fighter of GSP's caliber to take advantage of.

GSP is a perfectionist. He gets mad at himself for every little mistake he makes in a match, even when he wins. That gives him a good advantage since he's never sloppy.

But i just love Silva. So exciting to watch. GSP is awesome, but he's more boring and he doesn't finish, he's such a perfectionist that he's too afraid to make a mistake by going for a big hit that could miss and leave him open. That's why i think Silva vs Bones Jones would be so exciting because they are both athletic freaks and aggressive, but also sloppy where they each make mistakes. 2 very similar fighters. I would be afraid of GSP squirming on top of Silva on the mat for 5 rounds.

Yeah thats the thing... GSP is an excellent tactical striker, but Silva is just damn EXPLOSIVE. Everyone he fights is in danger of suddenly going to sleep for every second of the fight.

I would be afraid of GSP squirming on top of Silva on the mat for 5 rounds.

I know lots of people dont like that, and I used to hate it was well, but Iv come to appreciate that part of the sport. I think I appreciate it because its real fighting... thats just what happens in 90% of fights, they eventually go to the ground. I dont find sports like K1 or boxing that make rules to prevent ground fighting anywhere near as fun to watch.

To each his own though. I know a lot of people share your view. As far in fans in general though theyre changing. Most fans dont care whether its a standup fight or a ground fight, what they want is an ACTIVE fight. I dont see people booing good groundwork anymore, and I see plenty of people boing lazy standup.

[Moonlight Graham]

I know lots of people dont like that, and I used to hate it was well, but Iv come to appreciate that part of the sport. I think I appreciate it because its real fighting... thats just what happens in 90% of fights, they eventually go to the ground. I dont find sports like K1 or boxing that make rules to prevent ground fighting anywhere near as fun to watch.

To each his own though. I know a lot of people share your view. As far in fans in general though theyre changing. Most fans dont care whether its a standup fight or a ground fight, what they want is an ACTIVE fight. I dont see people booing good groundwork anymore, and I see plenty of people boing lazy standup.

Well, i respect a good ground game. I`m just saying that for me, and i think most people being honest would say this too, that watching guys pound each other is more exciting (whether standing up or on the ground - ie: i loved the Chael Sonnen-Silva fight even though it was mostly on the ground but lots of action). I never say "boo" when s fight goes to the ground. But some fights GSP gets guys on the ground and pins them, and doesn't finish. I'd preferably like to see a submission or a ground-and-pound TKO/KO if you're going to the ground all match.

One thing with UFC is that it's taken itself away from the "reality" of fighting for the sake of viewer interest. I agree with rules based on the safety of the fighting for sure, but why should the UFC have rounds? In a real fight, there are no rounds breaks, save by the bells, cut men in the corner. The UFC used to have no rounds and no time limits, it was fight until there was a winner. Though i guess 90 minute matches are completely ridiculous when you think about it. But i don't see why guys can't stand in there for 25 minutes without a break.

[Shady]

I still haven't heard a mention of somebody in GSP's division that can out strike him. And remember, Anderson Silva isn't in GSP's division.

[dre]

I still haven't heard a mention of somebody in GSP's division that can out strike him. And remember, Anderson Silva isn't in GSP's division.

Chris Lytle... Thiago Alves. Those guys are right up there. Lytle has a pretty extensive pro boxing record... I think he was 14-2 or something like that as a pro boxer. And GSP was pretty damn carefull to not get into it with Alves standing up.

GSP could probably do OK standing up with either of those, but it wouldnt be very smart when he can just dictate the terms of the fight and move guys like that out of their comfort zone. He doesnt leave stuff to chance which is why hes only lost about 4 rounds in an 8 year career.

Edited March 25, 2011 by dre

[SF/PF]

Youre confusing striking with knockout power. When it comes to tactical striking GSP is one of the best strikers in the UFC. He probably has the best jab in all of MMA, and he punches straight down the middle which makes his punches a lot harder to block. He doesnt throw power punches but thats because hes trained not to.

I don't think you can fully evaluate GSP's jab without conceding that his wrestling makes it look better than it is. Sometimes GSP throws a stiff jab, but as often as not, he throws a quick jab to cover a shot for the takedown. I maintain that the threat of the cover jab-takedown makes GSP's stiff jab look far better than it actually is.

Most of his opponents eat the jab and try to prepare for the shot, instead of avoiding what is really a pretty average jab. Thats what makes it effective.

I agree that his striking style makes the overall package more threatening. But thats quite a bit different than the claim that his striking is fantastic. Its really not.

No he didnt. GSP didnt even try to wrestle with Kos once a couple of his takedowns had been stuffed. He won the fight purely with tactical boxing, and completely controlled the fight with his jab which is almost unheard of in an MMA fight.

I said that Koschek is a pretty one dimensional wrestler (which he is) and that GSP physically dominated Penn in every sense (which he did). Neither fight speaks volumes about the quality of GSP's striking.

[SF/PF]

I still haven't heard a mention of somebody in GSP's division that can out strike him. And remember, Anderson Silva isn't in GSP's division.

Lytle, Hardy, Condit, Alves, Fitch (maybe), Kampmann, Swick.

[SF/PF]

I know lots of people dont like that, and I used to hate it was well, but Iv come to appreciate that part of the sport. I think I appreciate it because its real fighting... thats just what happens in 90% of fights, they eventually go to the ground. I dont find sports like K1 or boxing that make rules to prevent ground fighting anywhere near as fun to watch.

I like a good ground fight more than a good stand up fight, but there are instances when a fighter gets top control and just lays there for 3-5 rounds, not attempting to pass guard or do any significant ground n pound. They do just enough to keep the ref from standing them up.

GSP had a string of fights like that in which he made no attempt to finish the fight, and didn't do anything that might cost him top position. He seems to have picked it up as of late, as has Silva. Silva recieved a pretty public bashing from Dana White on his antics, and I suspect GSP got a little talking to as well: "Look guys, your fights are becoming boring..."

As far in fans in general though theyre changing. Most fans dont care whether its a standup fight or a ground fight, what they want is an ACTIVE fight. I dont see people booing good groundwork anymore, and I see plenty of people boing lazy standup.

I can agree with this.

[SF/PF]

One thing with UFC is that it's taken itself away from the "reality" of fighting for the sake of viewer interest. I agree with rules based on the safety of the fighting for sure, but why should the UFC have rounds? In a real fight, there are no rounds breaks, save by the bells, cut men in the corner. The UFC used to have no rounds and no time limits, it was fight until there was a winner. Though i guess 90 minute matches are completely ridiculous when you think about it. But i don't see why guys can't stand in there for 25 minutes without a break.

I guess ultimately because it isn't safe.

Anyway, the UFC never was anything resembling a real fight, even in the early days. The BJJ guys did really well early on, but pulling guard isn't such a good idea when theres broken beer bottles on the ground, and possibly bottles laying around for the guy on top to bludgeon you with.

[WIP]

I would say that rules of the sport generally favour wrestling, not striking. Though I suppose it could be said that its not the rules so much as the way fights are scored that favours wrestling.

I can't agree, especially when the refs are instructed to stand the fighters up if they decide there's not enough action on the ground. That is big disadvantage for someone who's looking for submissions, and a break for those who just want to stall the action till they get a chance to get back to their feet. Some of the wrestlers weren't happy when fingerless gloves became mandatory, since a hand wearing a glove can get trapped. And a lot of BJJ moves use the gee...such as some of the choke holds Royce Gracie used in those early UFC tournaments. In today's fights, submission holds become more difficult after round one when sweat becomes a factor and makes it harder to hold on; so most of the action is ground-and-pound or standup fighting later in the fight.

Part of this is pure economics. Its not uncommon to hear the fans boo-ing a highly technical stand up or ground fight. The majority of people buying PPV's and going to the events don't want to see technical strikers or fighters putting on a BJJ clinic. They want to see brawlers swinging for the fences and wrestlers ground n' pounding someone. On any technical evaluation, the Bonnar-Griffin fight has to be one of the worst fights in the history of the UFC. And yet, it's legendary.

But seriously, it was a glorified barfight! Their punching was entertaining, but 2nd rate boxing.

Yeah that one looked a little bit excessive. We don't know if Henderson realized how badly the punch hurt Bisping, and merely pounced to try to end the fight. But it certainly looked bad.

In the leadup to that fight, they were coaches for one of the Ultimate Fighter series. Henderson isn't much of a talker, but it was pretty obvious that he was totally pissed at having to listen to Bisping run off his mouth every day for a month; so, I'd be willing to bet that he wanted to get in the shots regardless of Bisping's condition.

Size matters, but I think GSP and Penn differ in a very important way. GSP has intense natural athleticism and trains really hard. Penn doesn't hae the same genetic athleticism, nor does he train particularly hard.

If you recall the way Penn was able to stop GSP from taking him down while standing on one foot, there's no way you can diss his athletic ability. And as for conditioning: that was true when Penn was a flabby welterweight with a spare tire around the middle; but when he got his weight down to the lightweight division, it was pretty obvious that he found the motivation somewhere to take the training seriously. The last fight I seen him in was his title defense against Diego Sanchez; and that's one that he would not have been able to win if he wasn't in peak condition. I still think it boils down to the difference in size.

[WIP]

I guess ultimately because it isn't safe.

Anyway, the UFC never was anything resembling a real fight, even in the early days. The BJJ guys did really well early on, but pulling guard isn't such a good idea when theres broken beer bottles on the ground, and possibly bottles laying around for the guy on top to bludgeon you with.

And wrestling and BJJ only works in a strictly one on one situation. You don't want to be fighting on the ground with a guy who has friends looking on who might jump in.

[SF/PF]

I can't agree, especially when the refs are instructed to stand the fighters up if they decide there's not enough action on the ground. That is big disadvantage for someone who's looking for submissions, and a break for those who just want to stall the action till they get a chance to get back to their feet.

Typically, the wrestlers aren't going for submissions in the first place. Its pretty common to lose dominant position if the sub attempt fails. The ref does stand them up if there is a complete lack of action, but its pretty common for a fight to stay on the ground for the entire round, even though the guy in top control makes no attempt to pass guard or throw more than a few token punches/elbows per minute.

Some of the wrestlers weren't happy when fingerless gloves became mandatory, since a hand wearing a glove can get trapped.

Fair enough.

And a lot of BJJ moves use the gee...such as some of the choke holds Royce Gracie used in those early UFC tournaments. In today's fights, submission holds become more difficult after round one when sweat becomes a factor and makes it harder to hold on; so most of the action is ground-and-pound or standup fighting later in the fight.

Yeah, though if we're talking about submissions, we're not typically talking about wrestlers. My main criticism is that the rules and scoring in the UFC currently favour wrestlers, not grapplers in general.

But seriously, it was a glorified barfight! Their punching was entertaining, but 2nd rate boxing.

Calling it 2nd rate is very charitable.

In the leadup to that fight, they were coaches for one of the Ultimate Fighter series. Henderson isn't much of a talker, but it was pretty obvious that he was totally pissed at having to listen to Bisping run off his mouth every day for a month; so, I'd be willing to bet that he wanted to get in the shots regardless of Bisping's condition.

Yeah, I know. My pleading ignorance had a lot to do with the fact that I rather like Hendo and rather despise Bisping.

If you recall the way Penn was able to stop GSP from taking him down while standing on one foot, there's no way you can diss his athletic ability. And as for conditioning: that was true when Penn was a flabby welterweight with a spare tire around the middle; but when he got his weight down to the lightweight division, it was pretty obvious that he found the motivation somewhere to take the training seriously. The last fight I seen him in was his title defense against Diego Sanchez; and that's one that he would not have been able to win if he wasn't in peak condition. I still think it boils down to the difference in size.

I don't buy at all that Penn has anywhere near the athleticism of GSP. Penn is a natural when it comes to technique, but I don't believe he has the same freak genetic ability of GSP.

[Shady]

Lytle, Hardy, Condit, Alves, Fitch (maybe), Kampmann, Swick.

I'd agree with Alves, and probably Hardy. The rest of them, no way. Maybe a couple of years ago. Mike Swick? Seriously? Come'on man.

[dre]

I'd agree with Alves, and probably Hardy. The rest of them, no way. Maybe a couple of years ago. Mike Swick? Seriously? Come'on man.

Id go with Alves, and Lytle.

But even those guys couldnt "dominate" GSP in standup. Hes right near the top in every area.

[SF/PF]

The rest of them, no way. Maybe a couple of years ago. Mike Swick? Seriously? Come'on man.

In terms of striking? Absolutely.

[Shady]

In terms of striking? Absolutely.

That's hilarious.

[WIP]

Typically, the wrestlers aren't going for submissions in the first place. Its pretty common to lose dominant position if the sub attempt fails.

The wrestlers, like Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock, did very well in those early tournaments. Severn won at least one event, and relied strictly on his wrestling to win fights. Shamrock lost the first event to Royce Gracie, but after learning about BJJ he was robbed of a win in a rematch with Gracie, when the 2nd fight was ruled a draw. The biggest problem for the wrestlers is that they are trained to always work from a position of control, and when they lose it, they have to find a way to reverse position to get back on top. Whereas BJJ has developed a lot of techniques to work over an opponent from the bottom position....that was especially true when head butts were still allowed. A BJJ specialist with strong legs can control an opponent easier from the guard than from the top or side control.

Yeah, though if we're talking about submissions, we're not typically talking about wrestlers. My main criticism is that the rules and scoring in the UFC currently favour wrestlers, not grapplers in general.

I don't see it for a number of reasons...a big one would be how the sport was dominated by grapplers in those early years, until 4 oz. gloves, refs standing up the fighters, became the norm. The grappler has to win the fight in the first round, and always faces the hazard that a ref will call for a break right when he's in the middle of trying to execute an arm-lock or choke-hold.

Yeah, I know. My pleading ignorance had a lot to do with the fact that I rather like Hendo and rather despise Bisping.

I've become a little suspicious about how genuine the UFC is now. Part of the reason is because so many of these English fighters like Bisping and Dan Hardy, were way overhyped and over-rated because Dana White was making a big push to establish the UFC in England, and there wasn't much quality homegrown talent. I had a feeling that Bisping would get rocked as soon as he stepped in against a top ranked opponent....and he didn't disappoint.

[SF/PF]

I don't see it for a number of reasons...a big one would be how the sport was dominated by grapplers in those early years, until 4 oz. gloves, refs standing up the fighters, became the norm. The grappler has to win the fight in the first round, and always faces the hazard that a ref will call for a break right when he's in the middle of trying to execute an arm-lock or choke-hold.

The sport is still dominated by grapplers. A weak striker can still be a contender (or even champion) in many of the UFC weight classes as long as they are solid on the ground. Someone with a weak ground game isn't going to be a contender, no matter how good of striker they are.

The ref typically isn't going to stand up the fighters unless there is literally nothing going on. If anything, the refs excercise the stand up option far too little. Some of the submissions do become quite a bit more difficult once the fighters are covered in sweat, but then some submissions, like chokes, become easier as the fight progresses due to fatigue.

I've become a little suspicious about how genuine the UFC is now. Part of the reason is because so many of these English fighters like Bisping and Dan Hardy, were way overhyped and over-rated because Dana White was making a big push to establish the UFC in England, and there wasn't much quality homegrown talent. I had a feeling that Bisping would get rocked as soon as he stepped in against a top ranked opponent....and he didn't disappoint.

The British fighters, as a whole, are very weak grapplers compared to north and south american fighters. They just don't have the wrestling or jujitsu culture that the new world does.

Edited March 27, 2011 by SF/PF

[Oleg Bach]

Nothing more cowardly than watching some overly tatooed idiot elbow an un-conscious man in the face.

[kimmy]

Gee, WIP, I didn't have you figured as being an MMA watcher!

Did any of you see last night's card? Chan Sung Jung, "The Korean Zombie", pulled off one of the most amazing submission holds I've ever seen in a match.

I don't see it for a number of reasons...a big one would be how the sport was dominated by grapplers in those early years, until 4 oz. gloves, refs standing up the fighters, became the norm. The grappler has to win the fight in the first round, and always faces the hazard that a ref will call for a break right when he's in the middle of trying to execute an arm-lock or choke-hold.

Most referees are pretty educated about the ground game and don't stand up fighters when there's active work being done. Most standups I have seen have come when it's clear the guy on top is just maintaining his position and doing nothing to advance. I think that standing fights up more often in such situations would reduce the dominance of wrestlers. Last night's fight with Rumble Johnson and Dan Hardy was an example of a fight where more standups would have been a good thing, because Johnson was really doing very little other than holding Hardy down.

I think a big reason that BJJ specialists are no longer as dominant as they once were is that everybody studies it now. In the early days other fighters had no idea how to defend themselves against these techniques or now to avoid getting caught in them. Now all the top fighters spend a lot of time learning how to avoid getting their joints twisted off. The element of surprise is gone.

I think that's true of MMA in general. It's in danger of becoming a style of fighting, rather than a contest of different styles.

I've become a little suspicious about how genuine the UFC is now. Part of the reason is because so many of these English fighters like Bisping and Dan Hardy, were way overhyped and over-rated because Dana White was making a big push to establish the UFC in England, and there wasn't much quality homegrown talent. I had a feeling that Bisping would get rocked as soon as he stepped in against a top ranked opponent....and he didn't disappoint.

One place where they crossed the line was giving Brock Lesnar a title shot he really hadn't earned. But for the most part I think they do a good job of finding a balance between giving the top fighters their shot and hyping fighters that fans want to see. They may use Bisping's popularity in England to sell tickets there, but he's never been in a title matchup because he hasn't earned one. Other fighters that sell tickets are used similarly.

That said, Bisping has some very credible wins on his resume. His only losses have been against Henderson, Wanderlei, and Rashad Evans, and while the Henderson fight was a devastating KO, the other two of those fights were nailbitingly close decisions that could have gone the other way on the scorecards. He's not a contender, but he's very legit.

He's also a real jerkwad. His conduct in and after the Jorge Rivera fight was disgraceful. I imagine he will get what's coming to him soon, as Chael Sonnen is interested in a match:

To: Joe Silva, Matchmaker Extraordinaire, Ultimate Fighting Championship

Re: Spitsbing & his tainted victory

Joe:

If you get a chance to talk with him, please mention to your idiot-in-residence Michael Spitsbing it’ll be a little tougher to knee ME in the head when I’m charging at him like a runaway train and mincing him through the fence like a boiled potato, should we ever have the pleasure of each other’s company for a few (VERY few) moments in the Octagon.

Oh; and I’d suggest to him being a little careful about spitting on any of MY cornermen, since any one of them can beat him up as badly as I can. Thanks ever so much. Hope all is well.

-Chael Sonnen

:lol:

-k

[Shady]

Did any of you see last night's card? Chan Sung Jung, "The Korean Zombie", pulled off one of the most amazing submission holds I've ever seen in a match.

The twister! That was amazing! I've never seen that type of submission before.

[dre]

The twister! That was amazing! I've never seen that type of submission before.

Not bad for a free card. First two fights were good... second two? meh.

[WIP]

Gee, WIP, I didn't have you figured as being an MMA watcher!

Hmmm, now I'm wondering why you didn't figure me as someone into martial arts!

Did any of you see last night's card? Chan Sung Jung, "The Korean Zombie", pulled off one of the most amazing submission holds I've ever seen in a match.

Yes, I just saw the rebroadcast last night, and I thought I knew Jiu Jitsu...but I've never seen or heard of a submission hold called a "twister" before....learned something new last night.

As a side note, I've noticed lately that having a major UFC event close by (Toronto) has improved the quality of UFC Unleashed lately. I haven't watched as many events in the last year, except for the ones I've seen at the local sports bar, because I'm not paying 50 or $60 to watch anyone fight, and UFC was starting to get greedy...saving everything for pay-per-view. First time in awhile that they've had something that isn't 4 or 5 years old.

Most referees are pretty educated about the ground game and don't stand up fighters when there's active work being done. Most standups I have seen have come when it's clear the guy on top is just maintaining his position and doing nothing to advance. I think that standing fights up more often in such situations would reduce the dominance of wrestlers. Last night's fight with Rumble Johnson and Dan Hardy was an example of a fight where more standups would have been a good thing, because Johnson was really doing very little other than holding Hardy down.

This is where winning a fight conflicts with entertainment value of a fight, because it was on display especially in that fight Dan Hardy lost to Anthony Johnson. The fans were booing because Dan Hardy isn't good enough to stop the takedowns from a good wrestler, but he is strong enough in the hands to have good wrist control, and seems to have a decent guard. Nevertheless, he was having to expend a lot of energy to avoid the ground-and-pound, and you could see him fade noticably in round 3. I don't know what Joe Rogan and that other clown were watching, because they were talking about Johnson getting tired, while not noticing that Dana White's pet had run out of gas. Maybe they're suppose to keep puffing up this one dimensional fighter to make him seem a legitimate no.1 contender....which reminds me, after three losses, why is Hardy still the no.1 contender? Anyway, if the ref had kept standing them up, it would have improved Hardy's chances somewhat, so regardless of what the drunken fools in the crowd think, I'm glad the ref let the fight take it's natural course!

I think a big reason that BJJ specialists are no longer as dominant as they once were is that everybody studies it now. In the early days other fighters had no idea how to defend themselves against these techniques or now to avoid getting caught in them. Now all the top fighters spend a lot of time learning how to avoid getting their joints twisted off. The element of surprise is gone.

That's true! In the first UFC tournament in 93, Ken Shamrock had a career in shootfighting (submission wrestling) in Japan. He was proficient at a lot of the basic Jiu Jitsu moves, yet in his match with Gracie, he was so caught up in trying to secure a leg-lock that he didn't notice that Gracie had the sleeve of his gee wrapped around Shamrock's neck, and forced Shamrock to tap out from the choke hold. After Gracie won that first round-robin tournament everybody was clamoring to learn more about BJJ.

I think that's true of MMA in general. It's in danger of becoming a style of fighting, rather than a contest of different styles.

Oh, they already crossed that threshold a long time ago! I think Tito Ortiz was one of the first to use the features of fighting in an octogon cage to his advantage, by pushing an opponent into the cage and make escape from ground-and-pound more difficult. A lot of stuff that works in cagefighting, does not work as well in a streetfight,

One place where they crossed the line was giving Brock Lesnar a title shot he really hadn't earned. But for the most part I think they do a good job of finding a balance between giving the top fighters their shot and hyping fighters that fans want to see.

In general, I would say that it's not a good idea to put someone on the fast track, but Lesnar has so much natural abilities that he will either be a champion or a top contender for a long time to come...assuming he stays healthy of course. What he lacks in skill or knowledge is made up for by brute strength and surprising quickness. I noticed this in his first fight with Frank Mir, who couldn't stop the takedowns. The only reason he won that first fight was because of Lesnar's lack of expertise...stepping over an opponent on the ground, and getting caught in a submission leg hold.

They may use Bisping's popularity in England to sell tickets there, but he's never been in a title matchup because he hasn't earned one. Other fighters that sell tickets are used similarly.

That said, Bisping has some very credible wins on his resume. His only losses have been against Henderson, Wanderlei, and Rashad Evans, and while the Henderson fight was a devastating KO, the other two of those fights were nailbitingly close decisions that could have gone the other way on the scorecards. He's not a contender, but he's very legit.

He's also a real jerkwad. His conduct in and after the Jorge Rivera fight was disgraceful. I imagine he will get what's coming to him soon, as Chael Sonnen is interested in a match:

:lol:

-k

If Bisping was able to get by Dan Henderson, I'm sure they would have tried to maneuver him into position for a title shot. They may have been put off by some weak performances like his undeserved win against Matt Hamill. I guess that's why Dan Hardy started becoming the focus of attention for the British UFC franchise.