Burn a Qu'ran Day.

[Shady]

And let me know when you can have a female priest in Roman Catholicism.

Priests are based on the 12 apostles, who were men. Female priests don't exist because of that, not because they're considered inferior.

[Guest American Woman]

The Southern Baptist Convention (an organization founded to support "pretty horrible stuff") seems to think women inferior to men.

Well that certainly clarifies things for me.

Quite frankly, I'm not talking about "what they think," I'm referring to "what they are doing." So if you could fill me in on what they are doing to force inequality on women, I'd appreciate it.

Edited August 24, 2010 by American Woman

[ToadBrother]

Priests are based on the 12 apostles, who were men. Female priests don't exist because of that, not because they're considered inferior.

That's not what St. Paul seemed to think.

Time to pull out Galatians Chapter 3 and several passages throughout 1 Corinthians. It had nothing at all to do with the gender of the twelve apostles, and several of Christ's prominent disciples during his lifetime were, according to the Gospels, women. No, the Church's stand on women comes from Paul, as sincere a misogynist as you'll ever read.

But I am amused at your attempt at revisionism. I wonder how you feel when Muslim scholars try to do the same thing with passages in the Qu'ran. I guess the truth is everyone plays fast and loose with these ancient texts.

[dre]

Priests are based on the 12 apostles, who were men. Female priests don't exist because of that, not because they're considered inferior.

Theyve been considered inferior by Christianity for thousands of years. Have you ever read any Christian texts?

Heres a few gems you might enjoy.

GENESIS

2:22 Eve created from Adam's rib.

3:16 Cursed with painful childbirth and domination by husband.

4:17 Cain marries sister?

4:19 Man marries two wives.

12:13-19 Abraham prostitutes wife.

19:1-8 Rape virgin daughters instead of male angels.

19:26 Lot's wife turned into pillar of salt for disobeying god.

19:30-38 Lot impregnates his two daughters while drunk. (So much for "family values"!)

20:2-12 Abraham prostitutes wife - again.

25:1-6 Keeping many concubines is OK.

EXODUS

20:17 Wife as property.

21:4 Wife and children belong to master.

21:7-11 OK to sell daughters. Female slaves can be used for sex.

Polygamy permitted. Unwanted female slaves can be set "free" without payment of money.

22:18 Kill witches.

LEVITICUS

12:1 Childbirth a sin, Women unclean after childbirth.

15:19-32 Menstruating women are unclean.

20:10-16 Death penalty for homosexuality and various sexual transgressions.

21:7 Priests must not marry prostitutes or divorcees.

21:9 Burn daughters.

21:13-14 Priest must marry virgin, not "used" woman.

NUMBERS

1:2 Census lists only men - women do not count.

5:11-31 Fidelity test for women only.

30:1-16 Woman's vow invalid unless approved by her father or husband.

31:17-18 Kill all except virgins. Keep virgins for yourselves.

CH 12 Miriam punished for rebuking Moses.

DEUTERONOMY

20:14 Take women, livestock as plunder.

22:13-21 Stone non-virgin bride.

22:23-24 Stone rapist and rape victim.

22:28 Rape victim must marry rapist; rape victim's father compensated for depreciation of his property.

25:11-12 Cut woman's hand for touching foe's penis.

24:1-5 Man can "send" wife from HIS house. Man must not marry "used" woman.

28:18 The FRUIT of your womb will be cursed - eclectic "pro-life" verse!

JUDGES

5:30 Women are spoils of war.

14:20 Samson gives wife to another man.

16:1 Samson visits prostitute.

CH 19 Concubine pack-raped and butchered.

21:10-12 Slaughtered all inc. women and children. Saved virgins for wives.

21:21 Abducted girls for wives.

[ToadBrother]

Well that certainly clarifies things for me.

Quite frankly, I'm not talking about "what they think," I'm referring to "what they are doing." So if you could fill me in on what they are doing to force inequality on women, I'd appreciate it.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg4.htm

[DogOnPorch]

dre's calendar reads somewhere around August 1634.

[Guest American Woman]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg4.htm

So you don't know what they're doing? You can't tell me? I don't want to wade through a bunch of crap. We've stated what we object to clearly and simply, so if you can't clearly and simply state what they are doing, then I have to assume that you don't know, either.

[dre]

dre's calendar reads somewhere around August 1634.

Those are passages in Christian texts that are the basis of the religion today. Christianity is one of the most patriarchial organizations in history (interestingly enough MOST religions are very patriarchial).

[ToadBrother]

So you don't know what they're doing? You can't tell me? I don't want to wade through a bunch of crap. We've stated what we object to clearly and simply, so if you can't clearly and simply state what they are doing, then I have to assume that you don't know, either.

Okay, what the SBC has done has basically said women are subject to their husbands, and a number of affiliated churches who have female pastors have been de-affiliated. The SBC has taken a very hard line on this. I guess because they can't beat up on blacks any more, they have to find some group easily accessible to be nasty to.

[ToadBrother]

Those are passages in Christian texts that are the basis of the religion today. Christianity is one of the most patriarchial organizations in history (interestingly enough MOST religions are very patriarchial).

I think that's a little over the top, don't you? Certainly there are extreme churches, but trying to say anything broad and generalized about Christianity, beyond some very basic tenets, is all but impossible.

[Jack Weber]

Those are passages in Christian texts that are the basis of the religion today. Christianity is one of the most patriarchial organizations in history (interestingly enough MOST religions are very patriarchial).

Clueless....Absolutely clueless...

You've just posted a bunch of things from the Old Testament...And then you claim it is representative of Christianity...

Let's see how long it takes you to understand where you've gone wrong...

[Guest American Woman]

Okay, what the SBC has done has basically said women are subject to their husbands, and a number of affiliated churches who have female pastors have been de-affiliated. The SBC has taken a very hard line on this. I guess because they can't beat up on blacks any more, they have to find some group easily accessible to be nasty to.

So what are they doing to enforce this? As I already said, I don't want to hear what they say/think; I want to know what they are doing. I'm speaking in regards to "women are subject to their husband."

I've already conceded to the whole 'priest/pastor must be male' in some Christian churches, and I've said I disagree with it. But if that's all you can come up with, it's like comparing giving one's child a quick swat on the butt with the palm of one's hand to beating a child with a baseball bat.

Furthermore, Christian women who have protested and are trying to change things within those churches have not been met with death threats to my knowledge. None have had to go into hiding for speaking out. Unless you can tell me otherwise? And by "tell," I mean "prove."

Edited August 24, 2010 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

Clueless....Absolutely clueless...

You've just posted a bunch of things from the Old Testament...And then you claim it is representative of Christianity...

Let's see how long it takes you to understand where you've gone wrong...

You'd think just living in the world he's living in would have shown him that he's wrong; that it isn't what the world is like today.

[GostHacked]

So what are they doing to enforce this? As I already said, I don't want to hear what they say/think; I want to know what they are doing. I'm speaking in regards to "women are subject to their husband."

I've already conceded to the whole 'priest/pastor must be male' in some Christian churches, and I've said I disagree with it. But if that's all you can come up with, it's like comparing giving one's child a quick swat on the butt with the palm of one's hand to beating a child with a baseball bat.

Furthermore, Christian women who have protested and are trying to change things within those churches have not been met with death threats to my knowledge. None have had to go into hiding for speaking out. Unless you can tell me otherwise? And by "tell," I mean "prove."

Maybe 1950s and back that could be the case, but women have only been 'free' for a short time when you look at overall history.

I guess once a majority of muslim women come out and say things without being afraid then we can make some progress as well. But we also must help those who are in the US and Canada, I think if anything only the women of Islam will be able to change what's wrong with Islam for the better. We should encourage that and help them when and where they need it.

We need to provide an out for them if they decide to take it and welcome them when they do.

[dre]

Clueless....Absolutely clueless...

You've just posted a bunch of things from the Old Testament...And then you claim it is representative of Christianity...

Let's see how long it takes you to understand where you've gone wrong...

Read up on what Christianity IS and see how long it takes you to understand where YOUVE gone wrong. Christianity is still an abrahamic religion based on the old testament, and they believe Jesus is the savior prophesied in that text, and the son of the god in that text.

Youd also be sorely mistaken if you think that subjugation of women ended with the old testament. You should read up on how women have been treated by the Christian church SINCE the new testament was written.

Its true that in the west the Christian church as been FORCED to liberalize its attitude towards women but its still at its root a patriarchial organization.

[Guest TrueMetis]

We've agreed to be enemies. Oh defender of cat torture.

I love pushing your buttons.

Your not pushing buttons your just showing how ill-equipped you are to be debating this.

That would be like saying that a person who believes in freedom of speech, but defends the right of another to say that absolute freedom of speech is undesirable, does not really believe in freedom of speech.

An atheist who defends religion is merely a person with a belief about the divine defending the right of others to have their own opinion of it.

Not to mention you can be religious and still be an atheist. They are not mutually exclusive terms, many Buddhists are atheists yet are definitely religious.

[dre]

You'd think just living in the world he's living in would have shown him that he's wrong; that it isn't what the world is like today.

I never said that the "world is like that today". I illustrated where the patriarchial nature of christianity comes from, and pointed out that Christianity is still a patriarchial organization where women are subjugated and enjoy a much smaller role in the christian hierachy than men. The Church in the last hundred years has also been one of the most aggresive enemies of feminism, and an ardent opposer of reproductive rights as well. Feminists have been blamed by the church for virtually everything from the decline of the traditional family to wayward youths today. The church has also been an active proponent of birth control which has played a huge part in the ascension of women from their role as "subservient stay at home baby makers" in the "traditional christian family" to where they are now.

[Jack Weber]

Read up on what Christianity IS and see how long it takes you to understand where YOUVE gone wrong. Christianity is still an abrahamic religion based on the old testament, and they believe Jesus is the savior prophesied in that text, and the son of the god in that text.

Youd also be sorely mistaken if you think that subjugation of women ended with the old testament. You should read up on how women have been treated by the Christian church SINCE the new testament was written.

Its true that in the west the Christian church as been FORCED to liberalize its attitude towards women but its still at its root a patriarchial organization.

We've been given a NEW Covenent.

And the Saviour was prophesied in,amongst other books,Isaiah...So are many End Time Prophesies...Does the Book of Daniel ring a bell?...Nebuchanedzer's dream???

My Reverend is a woman...

You obviously hate organized religion and have a strong disliking for people of faith.This is something you've made abundantly obvious...

What makes you think you bring a shred of credibility to this debate?

What makes you think you are any authority,whatsoever,on the Biblical texts you despise?

[Guest TrueMetis]

There is a 3rd faction that is the Sufi. And by that I am guessing there are other sects of Islam we have not yet encountered because of the small number or locality it is in.

Here's the Islamic tree of sects. My link

Here's the wiki page. My link

Seems pretty diverse to me.

The severe gender oppression in Christianity is rooted in GENESIS 3:16 Where god tells Eve that her husband will "rule over her".

Christian holy books are literally jam packed with sexism...

As I said with DOP just a while ago, quoting a religious book as an argument only works when the people in question are literalists.

[M.Dancer]

Youd also be sorely mistaken if you think that subjugation of women ended with the old testament. You should read up on how women have been treated by the Christian church SINCE the new testament was written.

And if you read the NT especially the Pauline letters you will see that a number of the early churches were led by women.....

[Jack Weber]

And if you read the NT especially the Pauline letters you will see that a number of the early churches were led by women.....

Yuppers....

[ToadBrother]

And if you read the NT especially the Pauline letters you will see that a number of the early churches were led by women.....

But Paul was hardly friendly to the notion of female leadership in the Church. Certainly those elements of the Early Church that lead to the minimizing of women's roles in the Church have to begin with his letters to the Galatians and Corinthians. To my mind, I tend to look at St. Paul is the greater inspiration of Christianity than Jesus, a figure who even by Paul's time of dominance had receded into the distance, a nice out-of-the-way god who left it to the battles between the Apostles and other early church leaders and Paul's crowd.

[Jack Weber]

But Paul was hardly friendly to the notion of female leadership in the Church. Certainly those elements of the Early Church that lead to the minimizing of women's roles in the Church have to begin with his letters to the Galatians and Corinthians. To my mind, I tend to look at St. Paul is the greater inspiration of Christianity than Jesus, a figure who even by Paul's time of dominance had receded into the distance, a nice out-of-the-way god who left it to the battles between the Apostles and other early church leaders and Paul's crowd.

Well,that's opens up the larger philosophical question I asked earlier of whether the failings of the church ar because of the failings of Man,or God?

I would respectively submit it is the latter...

[M.Dancer]

But Paul was hardly friendly to the notion of female leadership in the Church. Certainly those elements of the Early Church that lead to the minimizing of women's roles in the Church have to begin with his letters to the Galatians and Corinthians. To my mind, I tend to look at St. Paul is the greater inspiration of Christianity than Jesus, a figure who even by Paul's time of dominance had receded into the distance, a nice out-of-the-way god who left it to the battles between the Apostles and other early church leaders and Paul's crowd.

The later leaders took a much much dimmer view than paul who proclaimed that in the Kingdom of God there was:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

and consider....

I commend to you our

sister Phoebe, who is a deacon

in the church in Cenchrea. Welcome her in the Lord as one who is worthy of honor among God’s people. Help her in whatever she needs, for she has been helpful to many, and especially to me.

Give my greetings to

Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in the ministry of Christ Jesus

. In fact, they once risked their lives for me. I am thankful to them, and so are all the Gentile churches. Also give my greetings to the church that meets in their home.

Paul was mindful of the huge contribution women were making in the church of the day.

[M.Dancer]

Well,that's opens up the larger philosophical question I asked earlier of whether the failings of the church ar because of the failings of Man,or God?

I would respectively submit it is the latter...

God. A good carpenter never blames his tools