Hyperbole among Canadians?

[Smallc]

Still means the same to me! Perhaps you follow a different sense of grammar...

Perhaps we do follow different rules, since it seems you take single sentences and totally detach them from the context of the paragraph in which they are found.

[Shwa]

Michaels came to America...like all those before and after. Please cite an equivalent American Michaels or opportunity in Canada. This is the point you are missing.

...So we have American pop culture filling a void in Canada by design...

And we have Canadians filling "a void" in American pop culture is the point you are missing. And we have had these folks doing it for as long as American pop culture has been around.

Somebody is buying all those tickets and DVDs in Latvia, Japan, and Australia.

That's right. And all they are getting is... wait for it... fiction.

Oh please....your favorable rating is not a high priority. "stuff like this" has been kicked around in Canadian circles long before I showed up on MLW. And yes, I am not "Canadian Content".

It has indeed been kicked around and punted into the rubbish heap long ago.

Do you mean that Canadians are aware of even a larger deficit in this regard?

What do you think?

The point here is Canada stuck in America's gravity, a circumstance that even Mexico does not experience to the same extent. Broader global relationships are a different matter altogether, and the Americans have made their mark despite your opinion otherwise, particularly when it comes to applications for ideas, not just "great thoughts".

Nope. The point here is that you are "stuck in America's gravity" and "broader global relationships" is something intrinsically relevant. The Dead Parrot Sketch should have taught you - or your neighbours - that. No one has said Americans have not made their mark, but their greatness is always measured against others and usually Europeans. Wait, that has a familiar ring to it.

Because it is?

No, because it is fiction first, truth second. Columbus, a second rate Spaniard, but an American hero for discovering America.

No, you have left out the other aspects of production and distribution...something that America excels at.

No I haven't. Americans excel greatly in aspects of production and distribution and have many stories to prove it.

Canada is less "multi-cultural" than the United States by definition. This tired excuse ignores some practical and historical realities of how the US came to be and expanded across the continent.

But again, your only reference is to the reality as devised by that narrative of "how the US came to be and expanded across the continent" because absolutely no one else was involved. The doctrine of Manifest Destiny ensured that viewpoint to this day.

[bush_cheney2004]

And we have Canadians filling "a void" in American pop culture is the point you are missing. And we have had these folks doing it for as long as American pop culture has been around.

All the better, because there is/was far less opportunity for Americans or Canadians to do so in Canada. Michaels became a US citizen in 1987. So does American pop culture benefit from this at a cost to Canada? Canadian lawmakers seem to think so. as Mr. Michaels is only one out of at least two CanCon prerequisites.

That's right. And all they are getting is... wait for it... fiction.

No...they are also wanting and getting the many other non-fiction elements of American culture, while rejecting others.

It has indeed been kicked around and punted into the rubbish heap long ago.

I suspect you wish this were so, but there is ample evidence otherwise...both in the very narrow context intended here for political comparisons as well as the very definition of the Canadian identity as "not American".

What do you think?

I think JR did it! And of course, if you are old enough, you know what this trivial fiction reference means.

Nope. The point here is that you are "stuck in America's gravity" and "broader global relationships" is something intrinsically relevant. The Dead Parrot Sketch should have taught you - or your neighbours - that. No one has said Americans have not made their mark, but their greatness is always measured against others and usually Europeans. Wait, that has a familiar ring to it.

This is not a matter of greatness or your worship of Europe at all. Furthermore, your reduction of American culture to a self serving fiction only highlights the import and relationships Canadians have developed and express after years of "exposure" despite any shortcomings. It's not just at the superficial "Gilligan" level....it's consistent references to American "fiction" from the likes of the CDC, NRA, AMA, DoD, CNN, NYT, NASA, GM, POTUS, FBI, Democrats, Republicans, etc.

No I haven't. Americans excel greatly in aspects of production and distribution and have many stories to prove it.

Americans don't have to prove it...even you accept this as fact. It is not fiction.

But again, your only reference is to the reality as devised by that narrative of "how the US came to be and expanded across the continent" because absolutely no one else was involved. The doctrine of Manifest Destiny ensured that viewpoint to this day.

Quite to the contrary, many others were involved. That is the story of America's success, and it has done so on a far greater scale than a Canada which claims to be the example of "multiculturalism". That's why there are more stories to tell, and more people to tell them to, including Canadians.

[eyeball]

I think its more than that. Our obsession with this false dichotomy makes us very easy to control. It almost makes us totally irrelevant in our own political process because no matter how sick liberals get of a liberal government and no matter how sick conservatives get of a conservative government only a small percentage of people will actually stop voting along party lines.

Its taken philosophers many of hundreds or even thousands of years to come up with a system that marginalizes the voters to the degree ours does. My guess that the manner in which LEFT VS RIGHT is used to control us will be taught in philosophy classes for centuries to come.

I've been saying for years that the real polarity people should be concerned about is between the governed and government, along a vertical axis not horizontal.

Fat chance getting the government to work better so long as there's even a few people who insist on maintaining the top down model of government.

As the saying goes, no matter who wins the government always gets in.

[Moonlight Graham]

Do motion pictures from America (or anywhere else) really dominate that much "cultural" bandwidth in Canada?

Yes. I'd say no less than 95% of the movies Americans and Canadians watch are the same. The movie industry here is crap. You might get 1 Canadian-made movie hit mainstream theaters once every few years, and even then they usually bring in mediocre sales. Last ones were probably Passchendaele and Bon Cop, Bad Cop. We do make some very good documentaries though, but they don't really hit the mainstream theaters much & i usually pick them up on DVD.

Are you seriously saying that Canada is...errr...boring ? Is it that simple?

Pretty much, yes. At least compared to U.S. politics/history. I actually find it interesting, but i'm a history/poli nut and i'd gather most Canadians don't find it interesting.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

Sorry but more Canadian history is the last thing we need in schools. God damn, grade 10 and 11 history, 100% focused on Canada, was B O R I N G as hell.

I don't care if it's boring or not. It's incredibly important. For Canadians to have no idea where they came from or have little clue about their country is disgusting. It has destroyed Canadian nationalism in this country. Both of my grandfathers fought in WWII, i don't want their efforts forgotten by future generations.

My mother was an army brat and went to school in the U.S. for a few years growing up. She said the U.S. schools just hammer the U.S. history and civics into students. Americans are proud of their history and proud of their country, and feel a strong attachment to their past. They are much more educated about their own history and politics than Canadians. This is one thing i admire about the U.S. compared to Canada.

[Bonam]

I don't care if it's boring or not. It's incredibly important. For Canadians to have no idea where they came from or have little clue about their country is disgusting. It has destroyed Canadian nationalism in this country. Both of my grandfathers fought in WWII, i don't want their efforts forgotten by future generations.

The vast majority of people comprising those future generations will not have had any ancestors living in Canada at the time of WWII. They won't give a damn about Canada's (or your grandfathers') role in WWII. Most Canadians know where they came from: not Canada.

[Guest TrueMetis]

The vast majority of people comprising those future generations will not have had any ancestors living in Canada at the time of WWII. They won't give a damn about Canada's (or your grandfathers') role in WWII. Most Canadians know where they came from: not Canada.

Look at the various remembrance day ceremonies across the country people do care, a lot. (Not to mention the ones that happen in the Netherlands)

[Smallc]

Most Canadians know where they came from: not Canada.

Most Canadians are from Canada. People who are born here didn't come from anywhere else.

[Moonlight Graham]

They won't give a damn about Canada's (or your grandfathers') role in WWII.

And to those who don't, they can go eff themselves. These and other generations helped build & defend this great county we now live in and whose fruits we all enjoy.

[Jack Weber]

And to those who don't, they can go eff themselves. These and other generations helped build & defend this great county we now live in and whose fruits we all enjoy.

Pretty much sums it up....

[bush_cheney2004]

And to those who don't, they can go eff themselves. These and other generations helped build & defend this great county we now live in and whose fruits we all enjoy.

Be careful....or you will be accused of excessive national pride and get the urge to display a Mapleleaf Flag!

[eyeball]

Speaking for myself, I'm from Earth, a free agent of the universe. Bound here by gravity not choice.

[Jack Weber]

Speaking for myself, I'm from Earth, a free agent of the universe. Bound here by gravity not choice.

Do you live on a commune???

[Bonam]

Most Canadians are from Canada. People who are born here didn't come from anywhere else.

In the context of Moonlight Graham's post, he's talking about people "knowing where they came from", he talks about grandfathers, history, etc. It was plain to me that he was talking about familial origins, going perhaps 1,2, or 3 generations back. Looking 2-3 generations back, a large portion of Canadians originated outside of Canada.

[eyeball]

Do you live on a commune???

No, a tectonic plate.

[Shwa]

All the better, because there is/was far less opportunity for Americans or Canadians to do so in Canada. Michaels became a US citizen in 1987. So does American pop culture benefit from this at a cost to Canada? Canadian lawmakers seem to think so. as Mr. Michaels is only one out of at least two CanCon prerequisites.

Whether there is more/less opportunity is completely irrelevant, but I understand your logic. However, the fact remains - and has been a consistent fact for as long as the phenomenon has existed - that Canadians have filled a void in American pop culture. Who knows, perhaps making it more palatable to the Canadian - or European - market. So maybe is it simple business acumen.

No...they are also wanting and getting the many other non-fiction elements of American culture, while rejecting others.

Like what? Mom and apple pie?

I suspect you wish this were so, but there is ample evidence otherwise...both in the very narrow context intended here for political comparisons as well as the very definition of the Canadian identity as "not American".

Perhaps in the narrow fictional context of American pop culture, but there is no real argument. We have been kicking around not-British and not-French for much, much longer. But still, an outside reference to our identity which, as your continual focus on "not American" nicely proves. The problem is that you are limited to only seeing the not-American aspect and haven't been exposed to the not-British/not-French to any degree where it is apparent or modifying. But then again - with such a self-referencing mode of thinking - how could you be expected to see things any other way. So you are forgiven.

I think JR did it! And of course, if you are old enough, you know what this trivial fiction reference means.

A fawlty reference that towers over everything. A Fawlty Tower reference perhaps? Everyone at the Rover would agree.

This is not a matter of greatness or your worship of Europe at all. Furthermore, your reduction of American culture to a self serving fiction only highlights the import and relationships Canadians have developed and express after years of "exposure" despite any shortcomings. It's not just at the superficial "Gilligan" level....it's consistent references to American "fiction" from the likes of the CDC, NRA, AMA, DoD, CNN, NYT, NASA, GM, POTUS, FBI, Democrats, Republicans, etc.

No, I am not referring to the characteristics of greatness nor, had you been open-minded towards the idea that your model might be a titch inadequate - which it is - any sort of worship of Europe on my behalf. And if you believe that American culture is somehow reduced by its self-referential national myths, your wheels have come off the track.

Consistent references to American entities would be expected - don't you think - for a people that are accustomed to be able to discern the world around them? Thus we wouldn't exclude acronyms like HRH or M5 is such examples.

Americans don't have to prove it...even you accept this as fact. It is not fiction.

I accept that Americans - generally - don't really need to prove what they believe and are more than adept at deriving their beliefs from very well crafted stories about a particular topic that interests them. de Tocqueville found this vulgar, I find it entirely fascinating and almost non-existant in Canada on a national level.

Quite to the contrary, many others were involved. That is the story of America's success, and it has done so on a far greater scale than a Canada which claims to be the example of "multiculturalism". That's why there are more stories to tell, and more people to tell them to, including Canadians.

And this is a prime example of my previous point BC. But the appearance of irony isn't lost on me how, through your consistent - and sometimes needy - comparisons between the US and Canada, I can't help but notice that you seem to spend quite a bit of time standing on guard for thee.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Shwa

[Shwa]

Pretty much, yes. At least compared to U.S. politics/history. I actually find it interesting, but i'm a history/poli nut and i'd gather most Canadians don't find it interesting.

So then - as a "history/poli nut" - what do you make of the national identity assertions made by Ralston-Saul in Reflections of a Siamese Twin? Are you the type of person who seeks out the coat-check room in a theatre in the winter, or do you carry your winter coat with you into the theatre?

[Shady]

Really? Lay out the major differences between the Conservatives and Liberals on foreign policy, or taxes. Lay out the major differences between any of the parties on healthcare. You are part of the problem that is being talked about....the part that calls the NDP socialists for example.

Differences between the left and the right don't necessarily mean Liberals and Conservatives. Perhaps you need to read a little more carefully before you post.

Layton's corporate tax proposals were (I think) in the low 20 percents last election. The Conservatives haven't proposed anything altogether revolutionary since coming to power.

No need to kumbaya, we're already there. We're just rearranging chairs on the patio at this point. `

Of course, if you have a counter example I'd much enjoy reading your link, and would engage in a polite rebuttal with your approval.

I don't need a counter example. Your examples will do nicely. The left want corporate tax rates to go up. The right want corporate tax rates to go down. The left want income tax rates to go up. The right want income taxes to remain where they are, and in some cases go down. The left want the GST to go back up to 7%. The right want the GST to remain the same, if not drop even further. The left want healthcare to remain entirely under public control. The right want significant private sector involvement. You may not consider those major differences, but I would.

[Shady]

There are major differences on environmental policy as well.

[Smallc]

There are major differences on environmental policy as well.

Really? Because both the NDP and the Conservatives want cap and trade.

[Smallc]

Differences between the left and the right don't necessarily mean Liberals and Conservatives. Perhaps you need to read a little more carefully before you post.

Anybody to the left of the NDP or the right of the Conservatives would be in a tiny minority in Canada. There aren't very many extreme libertarians or Marxist Leninists in Canada.

I don't need a counter example. Your examples will do nicely. The left want corporate tax rates to go up. The right want corporate tax rates to go down. The left want income tax rates to go up. The right want income taxes to remain where they are, and in some cases go down. The left want the GST to go back up to 7%. The right want the GST to remain the same, if not drop even further. The left want healthcare to remain entirely under public control. The right want significant private sector involvement. You may not consider those major differences, but I would.

You are painting people with a pretty broad brush that in most cases doesn't stick. Most of the Canadian right wants government administered healthcare.....the private sector is already completely involved in the delivery. As for tax rates, the numbers your talking about are usually very small single digit percentages, and in the grand scheme of things are insignificant. I will also point out that you are not typical of the right...especially in Canada.

[Michael Hardner]

The left want corporate tax rates to go up. The right want corporate tax rates to go down. The left want income tax rates to go up. The right want income taxes to remain where they are, and in some cases go down. The left want the GST to go back up to 7%. The right want the GST to remain the same, if not drop even further. The left want healthcare to remain entirely under public control. The right want significant private sector involvement. You may not consider those major differences, but I would.

A couple of points.

One, this perpetuates the idea that left- and right- aren't positions but tax directions.

As for the other points, a few percentage points in GST or outsourcing some part of healthcare are not major differences compared to, say, nationalizing an oil company or normalizing relations with Cuba (Trudeau) vs cutting the deficit (Clark).

People like fighting about politics, and we have more outlets to do so now, that's my two cents.

[Michael Hardner]

I will also point out that you are not typical of the right...especially in Canada.

You might think to ask if the posters think the Conservatives are right-wing, actually. Several posters here don't think that.

[Shady]

A couple of points.

One, this perpetuates the idea that left- and right- aren't positions but tax directions.

As for the other points, a few percentage points in GST or outsourcing some part of healthcare are not major differences compared to, say, nationalizing an oil company or normalizing relations with Cuba (Trudeau) vs cutting the deficit (Clark).

We can agree to disagree then. In my opinion, lower taxes versus higher taxes is a major difference. Nationalized healthcare versus private sector options is a major difference. Closing down the tar sands versus energy independence is a major difference.