56% of Canadians are anti-semites!

[Jack Weber]

I am pretty sure that anyone who has been paying attention has noticed that Bob is a similar one trick pony. Well, to be fair, he has two tricks. One is posting about Israel, and the other is making incredibly stupid comments in which he presumes to be the authority on the lives and character of people he disgrees with.

Pretty much...

How's that for a non-sequitur?

[Machjo]

I'm genuinely curious. If a person were interested in criticizing Islam, if that were the subject they were interested in, and someone called them on the bajillion threads they started about every negative "topic" there is about Muslims/Islam, along with the myriad of posts they made on the subject, would you defend them and respond with "they are posting topics on a subject they are obviously interested in?"

The way I see it, if someone is interested in only on subject, perhaps they should be limited on the number of threads they can start on that topic within a certain time frame. Seems to me that would make for a more balanced, well-rounded board rather as opposed to a board with tons of threads on the same topic started by one poster.

Just wondering if anyone else feels the same way. And again, I'm referring to any single poster starting numerous threads on one subject. I've commented on others regarding this behavior, none who have reached this level, so I'm not singling her out.

But right now it's 'another day, another series of threads by naomiglover criticizing Israel.' I wonder how many new threads we need on one subject. I feel as if it gets to the point where other discussions/topics are purposely being buried as certain forums within the board are dominated by criticizing Israel.

As it stands, this board is beginning to feel more and more like an "anti-Israel" propaganda board than a political board, and I'm starting to lose interest fast. I'm genuinely interested in how others feel; if they feel my comments/observations have any merit.

I think we can make a similar distinction parallel to the OP with this one. A person's views on Muslims, his views on Islam, his views on Middle-Eastern nations, and his views on Islamism can be quite different too, just as a person's views on the Jewish Faith, his views on Jews, his views on the state of Israel, and his views on Zionism can be quite distinct.

I see the problem on both camps to be a failure to distinguish between these distinct views.

[wyly]

Why? Because..

In this International BBC Poll:

27% of Canadians have a positive view of Israel, while 56% have a negative.

This a big contrast to the United States where, 41% have a positive view of Israel and 33% a negative view.

Israel is viewed quite negatively in the world, possibly because the poll was conducted less than six months following the Israel/Hezbollah war in Lebanon. On average, 56 percent have a mainly negative view of the country, and just 17 percent have a positive view, the least positive rating for any country evaluated. In 23 countries the most common view was negative, with only two leaning towards a positive view and two divided.

how do you equate having a negative view on an apartheid/zionism being anti-semitic? the two are very different...what you're doing is what is falling into the zionist propaganda trap, to criticize Israel is to hate jews...the creation of Israel was an illegal abusive act, and Israeli/zionist politics and it's treatment of the Palestinian is repulsive but to have a negative view of that does not make one anti-semitic...

[dre]

Heres some writing on the whole "anti-semite" VS "anti-israel" question that seems to be a big topic on the board lately, by Israeli writer Uri Avnery. Not that is opinion necessarily means more than anyone elses, but he covers lots of the angles that have been talked about here.

Anti-Semitism Vs Anti-Zionism -

A Practical Manual

By Uri Avnery

CounterPunch.org

A Hungarian Joke: During the June 1967 war, a Hungarian meets his friend. "Why do you look so happy?" he asks. "I heard that the Israelis shot down six Soviet-made MiGs today," his friend replies.

The next day, the friend looks even more jubilant. "The Israelis downed another eight MiGs," he announces.

On the third day, the friend is crestfallen. "What happened? Didn't the Israelis down any MiGs today?" the man asks. "They did," the friend answers, "But today someone told me that the Israelis are Jews!"

This is the whole story in a nutshell.

The Anti-Semite hates the Jews because they are Jews, irrespective of their actions. Jews may be hated because they are rich and ostentatious or because they are poor and live in squalor. Because they played a major role in the Bolshevik revolution or because some of them became incredibly rich after the collapse of the Communist regime. Because they crucified Jesus or because they infected Western culture with the "Christian morality of compassion". Because they have no fatherland or because they created the State of Israel.

That is in the nature of all kinds of racism and chauvinism: One hates someone for being a Jew, Arab, woman, black, Indian, Muslim, Hindu. His or her personal attributes, actions, achievements are

unimportant. If he or she belongs to the abhorred race, religion or gender, they will be hated.

The answers to all questions relating to anti Semitism follow from this basic fact. For example:

Is everybody who criticizes Israel an anti-Semite?

Absolutely not. Somebody who criticizes Israel for certain of our actions cannot be accused of anti-Semitism for that. But somebody who hates Israel because it is a Jewish state, like the Hungarian in the joke, is an anti-Semite. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two kinds, because shrewd anti-Semites pose as bona fide critics of Israel's actions. But presenting all critics of Israel as anti- Semites is wrong and counter productive, it damages the fight against anti-Semitism.

Many deeply moral persons, the cream of humanity, criticize our behavior in the occupied territories. It is stupid to accuse them of anti-Semitism.

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti Semite?

Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti- Capitalist without being anti American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be "anti-Zionists". They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist?

Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated.

Can a Jew be anti-Semitic?

That sounds like an oxymoron. But history has known some instances of Jews who became ferocious Jew-haters. The Spanish Grand Inquisitor, Torquemada, was of Jewish descent. Karl Marx wrote some very nasty things about the Jews, as did Otto Weininger, an important Jewish writer in fin-de-siecle Vienna. Herzl, his contemporary and fellow Viennese, wrote in his diaries some very uncomplimentary remarks about the Jews.

If a person criticizes Israel more than other countries which do the same, is he an anti-Semite?

Not necessarily. True, there should be one and the same moral standard for all countries and all human beings. Russian actions in Chechnya are not better than ours in Nablus, and may be worse. The trouble is that the Jews are pictured and picture themselves (and indeed were) a "nation of victims". Therefore, the world is shocked that yesterday's victims are today's victimizers. A higher moral standard is required from us than from other peoples. And rightly so.

Has Europe become anti-Semitic again?

Not really. The number of anti-Semites in Europe has not grown, perhaps it has even fallen. What has increased is the volume of criticism of Israel's behavior towards the Palestinians, who appear as "the victims of the victims".

The situation in some suburbs of Paris, which is often cited as an example of the rise of anti-Semitism, is a quite different affair. When North African Muslims clash with North African Jews, they are transferring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to European soil. It is also a continuation of the feud between Arabs and Jews that started in Algeria when the Jews supported the French regime and Muslims considered them collaborators of the hated colonialists.

Then why did most Europeans state in a recent poll that Israel endangers world peace more than any other country?

That has a simple explanation: Europeans see on television every day what our soldiers are doing in the occupied Palestinian territories. This confrontation is covered more than any other conflict on earth (with the possible exception of Iraq, for the time being), because Israel is more "interesting", considering the long history of the Jews in Europe and because Israel is closer to the Western media than Muslim or African countries. The Palestinian resistance, which Israelis call "terrorism", seems to many Europeans very much like the French resistance to the German occupation.

What about the anti-Semitic manifestations in the Arab world?

No doubt, typically anti-Semitic indications have crept lately into Arab discourse. Suffice it to mention that the infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" have been published in Arabic. That is a typically European import. The Protocols were invented by the secret police of Czarist Russia.

Whatever inanities may be voiced by certain "experts", there never was any widespread Muslim anti-Semitism, such as existed in Christian Europe. In the course of his fight for power, the prophet Muhammad fought against neighboring Jewish tribes, and therefore there are some negative passages about the Jews in the Kor'an. But they cannot be compared to the anti-Jewish passages in the New Testament story about the crucifixion of Christ that have poisoned the Christian world and caused endless suffering. Muslim Spain was a paradise for the Jews, and there has never been a Jewish Holocaust in the Muslim world. Even pogroms were extremely rare.

Muhammad decreed that the "Peoples of the Book" (Jews and Christians) be treated tolerantly, subject to conditions that were incomparably more liberal than those in contemporary Europe. The Muslims never imposed their religion by force on Jews and Christians, as shown by the fact that almost all the Jews expelled from Catholic Spain settled in the Muslim countries and flourished there. After centuries of Muslim rule, Greeks and Serbs remained thoroughly Christian.

When peace is established between Israel and the Arab world, the poisonous fruits of anti-Semitism will most probably disappear from the Arab world (as will the poisonous fruits of Arab-hating in our society.)

Aren't the utterances of the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir bin Muhammad, about the Jews controlling the world, anti-Semitic?

Yes and no. They certainly illustrate the difficulty of pinning anti- Semitism down. From a factual point of view, the man was right when he asserted that the Jews have a far bigger influence than their percentage of the world's population alone would warrant. It is true that the Jews have a large influence on the policy of the United States, the only super-power, as well as on the American and international media. One does not need the phony "Protocols" in order to face this fact and analyse its causes. But the sounds make the music, and Mahathir's music does indeed sound anti-Semitic.

So should we ignore anti-Semitism?

Definitely not. Racism is a kind of virus that exists in every nation and in every human being. Jean-Paul Sartre said that we are all racists, the difference being that some of us realize this and fight against it, while others succumb to the evil. In ordinary times, there is a small minority of blatant racists in every country, but in times of crisis their number can multiply rapidly. This is a perpetual danger, and every people must fight against the racists in their midst.

We Israelis are like all other peoples. Each of us can find a small racist within himself, if he searches hard enough. We have in our country fanatical Arab-haters, and the historic confrontation that dominates our lives increases their power and influence. It is our duty to fight them, and leave it to the Europeans and Arabs to deal with their own racists.

[Machjo]

A good article clearly written by a man capable of critical thought.

[sharkman]

Yeah, thanks for the propaganda.

[dre]

Yeah, thanks for the propaganda.

[sharkman]

Oh, and by the way, it's against the rules to post articles in their entirety. Just FYI.

[Machjo]

Yeah, thanks for the propaganda.

So where's the propaganda in that article? He's saying that there is a distinction between Zionism, the Jewish faith, Jews, the State of Israel, antisemitism, and anti-Zionism. So to point out that these are each distinct points and that a person could hold any combination of views on each of these points is propaganda? So are you denying the possibility that there may be a wide range of views as opposed to only the black and white view held by some?

[dre]

So where's the propaganda in that article? He's saying that there is a distinction between Zionism, the Jewish faith, Jews, the State of Israel, antisemitism, and anti-Zionism. So to point out that these are each distinct points and that a person could hold any combination of views on each of these points is propaganda? So are you denying the possibility that there may be a wide range of views as opposed to only the black and white view held by some?

Well you have to realize he defines "propoganda" as "information that isnt in lock-step with my ideology".

[myata]

Well you have to realize he defines "propoganda" as "information that isnt in lock-step with my ideology".

When discussion descends to the level of "anti-" labels, there would be nothing in it left of argumentation or information, only propaganda. On that level (defining any statement as an expression) "propaganda" would be any expression that isn't identical to my own. So the world reduces itself to a nice simple pattern: my own views and expressions thereof; and hostile propaganda. Nothing else is guaranteed to exist, by definiton.

[GostHacked]

Oh, and by the way, it's against the rules to post articles in their entirety. Just FYI.

Sometimes it needs to be, because people rarely click on the link to read the whole article. It was worth the read to me.

Propaganda? This piece to me is very objective. It's opened my eyes a little.

[Topaz]

In my opinion, I think any country that bullied another for whatever reason would get the same kind of results. Just look at the US when the evidence showed there weren`t any WMD`s in Iraq, the world turn on Bush and the US for a while. I think this is more about the àctions`of a country towards another and NOT anti-semites, at least, I don`t think it is.

[dre]

In my opinion, I think any country that bullied another for whatever reason would get the same kind of results. Just look at the US when the evidence showed there weren`t any WMD`s in Iraq, the world turn on Bush and the US for a while. I think this is more about the àctions`of a country towards another and NOT anti-semites, at least, I don`t think it is.

I think its a mixture of both, and the article covers this. A shrewd anti-semite WILL use the "nation state" paridigm to conceal overt anti-semitism, and I think thats PART of the reason that 100% pro-Israel crowd is skeptical of that rationale. The problem of course is that they attribute this motive to EVERYONE critical of Israel which is of course a huge failure in logic and does a disservice to all sides.

[Bonam]

I think its a mixture of both, and the article covers this. A shrewd anti-semite WILL use the "nation state" paridigm to conceal overt anti-semitism, and I think thats PART of the reason that 100% pro-Israel crowd is skeptical of that rationale. The problem of course is that they attribute this motive to EVERYONE critical of Israel which is of course a huge failure in logic and does a disservice to all sides.

If you're allied with and support the cause of anti-semites, even if you are not an anti-semite yourself, you become merely their "useful idiot".

That being said, criticism of Israel is not the problem. No nation is above criticism. It is the unreasonable, disproportionate, biased, and false criticism that wearies us. One need only look at the UN for an example of what I mean by disproportionate criticism. For example, in 2007, the ONLY finding of the UN Commission on the Status of Women was that Israel mistreats Palestinian women. No other findings, no mention of any of the problems women face in the Arab world or in Africa, just Israel. This is just one of many many examples of the ridiculous extremes of UN one-sidedness on the issue. Incidents like this demonstrate what a complete charade much of this concern for "human rights" is; many of the organizations and nations condemning Israel have no interest in human rights, they have a purely political anti-Israeli agenda.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Bonam

[dre]

If you're allied with and support the cause of anti-semites, even if you are not an anti-semite yourself, you become merely their "useful idiot".

That being said, criticism of Israel is not the problem. No nation is above criticism. It is the unreasonable, disproportionate, biased, and false criticism that wearies us. One need only look at the UN for an example of what I mean by disproportionate criticism. For example, in 2007, the ONLY finding of the UN Commission on the Status of Women was that Israel mistreats Palestinian women. No other findings, no mention of any of the problems women face in the Arab world or in Africa, just Israel. This is just one of many many examples of the ridiculous extremes of UN one-sidedness on the issue. Incidents like this demonstrate what a complete charade much of this concern for "human rights" is; many of the organizations and nations condemning Israel have no interest in human rights, they have a purely political anti-Israeli agenda.

Actually if you read the UN's Arab Human Development Report it outlines all kinds of problems faced by women in the Arab world, and the UN has been pushing Arab countries to ratify the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. In fact the UN is at the forefront in this regard, both in acknowledging the problems face by Arab women, and pushing for solutions.

But as for your suggestion that theres a double standard... OF COURSE there is a double standard. More is expected from modern developed countries like Canada, the US, the UK, or Israel, and YES... they are held to a different standard as they should be.

[Bob]

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti Semite?

Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti- Capitalist without being anti American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be "anti-Zionists". They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Wrong, Zionism is much more than a "political creed", it is a nationalist movement for the emancipation of Jews from persecution around the world. It was a necessary movement to save Jewish lives. If you oppose Zionism, you oppose Jewish self-determination and liberation. History has proven to us that the world, on the whole, will not treat us equals and will not protect us when we are threatened. To be opposed to Zionism is to be complicit in discrimination against us (which has included, among other things, something called the Holocaust which murdered half of us).

To be anti-democratic IS to be anti-American and anti-Canadian, as examples (and other countries, as well). To be a communist IS to be anti-American and anti-Canadian (and other countries, as well). The free-market (with many limits on it, of course) and democracy, as examples of political values, are inextricable from American and Canadian cultures. Is an Islamic fundamentalist not anti-American and anti-Canadian? The same is true for the ultra-religious Jews in Israel, they are anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist, and by extension anti-semitic (they hate other Jews who are not like them!). They are a threat to the very social fabric of Israel's secular nature.

I don't know that most Chinese are hardline communists in their hearts of hearts, so I can't comment on that example. One must be a moron to pretend that political values, in some circumstances, are inextricable from the people on the whole. Zionism, on the whole, cannot be separate from Jewish identity.

Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist?

Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated.

Another moronic example from an idiotic liberal arts graduate completely ignorant of reality. To suggest that somehow anti-semites support Jewish self-determination via a Jewish state through these anecdotes illustrates that these despicable people fully supported Zionism's mission to provide a safe homeland and high quality of life for Jews is absurd. It's like saying that if a communist buys a product in America he's a capitalist because he engaged in capitalistic activity. Zionism's foundation is to save Jews from persecution and to preserve our culture from destruction. You think an anti-semite suddenly becomes a Zionist because he's interested in evicting Jews from his territory?

This moronic idiot Jew then goes on to suggest that some of Israel's staunchest allies, Evangelical Christians in the USA (one of the most viciously attacked groups of people in America) are anti-semites by attaching beliefs to them to which they do not subscribe. This is typical of the suicidal liberal Jew who doesn't care about cultural survival. It seems to me that a huge portion of American Jews are idiots, anyways - they committed cultural suicide a long time ago. When a bunch of American Jews believe that a group of Evangelical Christians are anti-semitic (let's assume Uri's information is accurate), it doesn't make it accurate. Perhaps American Jews have been brainwashed by the campaign that's been going on for years against Evangelical Christians (and Christianity in a general sense) with the USA and Canada. If a majority of Muslims believe that America is at war with their religion, does it make it a fact? If a majority of Muslims believe that the CIA and Mossad were behind 9/11, does that make it accurate?

Stop copying and pasting all this bullshit from blatantly anti-semitic and anti-Israel websites. It's so pathetic.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Bob

[GostHacked]

Bob, you have been very entertaining to say the least. I hope you keep it up.

[dre]

Bob, you have been very entertaining to say the least. I hope you keep it up.

I agree. I think its valuable for all of us to have a real life extremist militant zealot and racist in our midst. We can study it and try to figure out what makes it tick . And it helps understand why the conflict has been so hard to resolve. Remember for each guy like that on the Israeli side theres one on the Palestinian side, and even though they are sort of a freaky fringe minority in both camps you can see how people like this can poison the debate.

I mean... picture a guy like Bob trying to "negotiate" with an equally extreme militant on the other side and you can picture why its so damn hard for any kind of compromise to be struck.

Edited June 18, 2010 by dre

[dre]

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti Semite?

Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti- Capitalist without being anti American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be "anti-Zionists". They should not be helped by erasing the distinction.

Wrong, Zionism is much more than a "political creed", it is a nationalist movement for the emancipation of Jews from persecution around the world. It was a necessary movement to save Jewish lives. If you oppose Zionism, you oppose Jewish self-determination and liberation. History has proven to us that the world, on the whole, will not treat us equals and will not protect us when we are threatened. To be opposed to Zionism is to be complicit in discrimination against us (which has included, among other things, something called the Holocaust which murdered half of us).

To be anti-democratic IS to be anti-American and anti-Canadian, as examples (and other countries, as well). To be a communist IS to be anti-American and anti-Canadian (and other countries, as well). The free-market (with many limits on it, of course) and democracy, as examples of political values, are inextricable from American and Canadian cultures. Is an Islamic fundamentalist not anti-American and anti-Canadian? The same is true for the ultra-religious Jews in Israel, they are anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist, and by extension anti-semitic (they hate other Jews who are not like them!). They are a threat to the very social fabric of Israel's secular nature.

I don't know that most Chinese are hardline communists in their hearts of hearts, so I can't comment on that example. One must be a moron to pretend that political values, in some circumstances, are inextricable from the people on the whole. Zionism, on the whole, cannot be separate from Jewish identity.

Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist?

Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated.

Another moronic example from an idiotic liberal arts graduate completely ignorant of reality. To suggest that somehow anti-semites support Jewish self-determination via a Jewish state through these anecdotes illustrates that these despicable people fully supported Zionism's mission to provide a safe homeland and high quality of life for Jews is absurd. It's like saying that if a communist buys a product in America he's a capitalist because he engaged in capitalistic activity. Zionism's foundation is to save Jews from persecution and to preserve our culture from destruction. You think an anti-semite suddenly becomes a Zionist because he's interested in evicting Jews from his territory?

This moronic idiot Jew then goes on to suggest that some of Israel's staunchest allies, Evangelical Christians in the USA (one of the most viciously attacked groups of people in America) are anti-semites by attaching beliefs to them to which they do not subscribe. This is typical of the suicidal liberal Jew who doesn't care about cultural survival. It seems to me that a huge portion of American Jews are idiots, anyways - they committed cultural suicide a long time ago. When a bunch of American Jews believe that a group of Evangelical Christians are anti-semitic (let's assume Uri's information is accurate), it doesn't make it accurate. Perhaps American Jews have been brainwashed by the campaign that's been going on for years against Evangelical Christians (and Christianity in a general sense) with the USA and Canada. If a majority of Muslims believe that America is at war with their religion, does it make it a fact? If a majority of Muslims believe that the CIA and Mossad were behind 9/11, does that make it accurate?

Stop copying and pasting all this bullshit from blatantly anti-semitic and anti-Israel websites. It's so pathetic.

[myata]

What we seem to be struggling to understand is what once a label has been created it can be stretched to fit any view. This particular posters considers that ethnic cleaning would be justified because anybody who objects or resists to the original taking of land; or occupation of Palestinian territories; or illegal appropriation thereof is anti Israel therefore anti nationalist then anti Zionist then, right you got it. Nothing can be gained by arguing the meaning of a label simply because it has different meanings for different people.

Killing or taking of land or possession or persecution of people based on ethnicity is wrong not because its anti this or pro that. Anybody can use and indeed have used this line of argument over and over again in the long course of history. It's wrong because it's murderous and destructive and it contradicts our nature and our principles. If we finally understand this, in truth rather than in the words only, objective principled postion would be the only option consistent with what we think we are.

[Moonbox]

What we seem to be struggling to understand is what once a label has been created it can be stretched to fit any view.

Agreed. As soon as I see 'Zionist' or anti-Semitic labels get tossed around, the strength of any argument the speaker makes erodes into nothing.

I know we don't generally agree on anything related to Israel Myata, but there ya have it...

Edited June 18, 2010 by Moonbox

[GostHacked]

Agreed. As soon as I see 'Zionist' or anti-Semitic labels get tossed around, the strength of any argument the speaker makes erodes into nothing.

I know we don't generally agree on anything related to Israel Myata, but there ya have it...

I think the overwhelming majority of posters and people in general, no matter what their view is on things will agree to it. If the majority of people do hold the view that this kind of rhetoric does not help, then we do we see it so much? Or are we focusing on a few loudmouths that are the ones consistently saying it.

[JB Globe]

In other words, Canadian media and Canadian public opinion are predominantly anti-Israel and predominantly ignorant. The vast majority of comments I read on the CBC website (to say nothing of the articles, themselves), for example, are virulently anti-Israel, anti-semitic, and full of ignorance.

You can be so intellectually dishonest when you want to be, you know?

[Bob]

It's important to understand where people stand on the issue of Zionism. If one is opposed to Zionism, the debate's over - they're anti-semitic and opposed to Jewish self-determination. More than likely, they're opposed to all identities and wish to live a world where there are no group identities and all people are global citizens. They hate difference, often because they themselves have no identity beyond their individual personhood. Their ignorance of culture and identity contributes to their hostility towards all identities. They see expressions of difference as an insult to their unaffiliated existence.

The bottom line is we need to know where a person stands on the issue of Zionism before we can even begin to move forward on a debate regarding Israel. If an individual is anti-Zionist, they are opposed to the fundamental fabric of Israeli society. Not only is Zionism within Israel's legal foundation, it's a part of its social foundation and lives in the hearts of most Israelis. It's not just on paper, it's in practice. Rejection of Zionism is a rejection of Israel as a Jewish state. Once that rejection is made clear, the debate's over. Forget about examining the details of hostilities between Israel and the Arabs, forget about the diplomatic process, forget about history, the problem lies in Israel character. To suggest that use of the term "Zionism" is simply rhetoric suggests massive ignorance of how fundamental this concept is to Israel and the broader Israeli-Arab conflict. Rejection of Zionism is largely at the heart of this conflict, it's not just rhetoric.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Bob