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56% of Canadians are anti-semites!


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It's important to understand where people stand on the issue of Zionism. If one is opposed to Zionism, the debate's over - they're anti-semitic and opposed to Jewish self-determination. More than likely, they're opposed to all identities and wish to live a world where there are no group identities and all people are global citizens. They hate difference, often because they themselves have no identity beyond their individual personhood. Their ignorance of culture and identity contributes to their hostility towards all identities. They see expressions of difference as an insult to their unaffiliated existence.

The bottom line is we need to know where a person stands on the issue of Zionism before we can even begin to move forward on a debate regarding Israel. If an individual is anti-Zionist, they are opposed to the fundamental fabric of Israeli society. Not only is Zionism within Israel's legal foundation, it's a part of its social foundation and lives in the hearts of most Israelis. It's not just on paper, it's in practice. Rejection of Zionism is a rejection of Israel as a Jewish state. Once that rejection is made clear, the debate's over. Forget about examining the details of hostilities between Israel and the Arabs, forget about the diplomatic process, forget about history, the problem lies in Israel character. To suggest that use of the term "Zionism" is simply rhetoric suggests massive ignorance of how fundamental this concept is to Israel and the broader Israeli-Arab conflict. Rejection of Zionism is largely at the heart of this conflict, it's not just rhetoric.

It's important to understand where people stand on the issue of Zionism. If one is opposed to Zionism, the debate's over - they're anti-semitic and opposed to Jewish self-determination.

No sorry thats just not true. Native Indians in Canada have every bit as much right to establish an independant state in Canada as jews do in the middle east, yet if they attempted to do so (and there has been talk of it) then most Canadians would opposed it for many other reasons than racism towards Indians. I bet you would oppose it yourself.

And all the same buzzwords and talking points would apply. You could accuse Canadians of trying to deny natives self determination, etc. But the reality would be that many Canadians would oppose it for different reasons. They might reject it based on Canadian nationalism and a desire to see Canada as its known now to be kept intact. They might reject it based on their own judgement about the validity of historical land claims, or they might reject it because theyre own property lies within the area the natives want to create a new state on.

Youre trying to oversimplify things. Theres all kinds of reasons to reject any peoples claim to a certain piece of land besides racism.

I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger

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Guest TrueMetis

It's important to understand where people stand on the issue of Zionism. If one is opposed to Zionism, the debate's over - they're anti-semitic and opposed to Jewish self-determination.

Yes and everyone who doesn't want each First Nation tribe to get their own country hates all First Nations. :rolleyes:

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Bob.

Tell me why most Jews are not Zionists.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html

There are a lot of self hating jews out there!!!

Listen. You schmuck. You moron. You idiot. You think you know more about the Jewish community than me? You think Google searching obscure websites that nobody's ever heard of suggests that Zionism isn't an integral part of the global Jewish community, aside from some of its detractors (who may or may not be represented by these ridiculous websites)? How arrogant and idiotic are you to talk to me about my own people? If you had any sense or genuine desire to understand the Jewish perspective of this conflict and Zionism's role in the Jewish community, you'd be asking me and other Jewish board members questions and not coming at me with fringe websites nobody's ever heard of.

The funniest thing about the modern internet is now everyone thinks they're an expert on everything. Not only that, but the real idiots go to the most lunatic websites for information of "proof" of their ignorant positions. Funnier still, is that you know someone is angry and desperate when they start linking fringe websites as support for any argument.

My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!

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Yes and everyone who doesn't want each First Nation tribe to get their own country hates all First Nations. :rolleyes:

Would a First Nations state come at the expense of Canadian security? Would equal freedoms and protections (within reason) be extended to all who live in the potential First Nations state? Are the majority of First Nations communities calling for independence? Are First Nations in imminent threat of discrimination and murder? Are there other options to fulfil First Nations self-determination that we might consider?

There are legitimate questions to be asked here, but of course it's not like you're interested in context.

My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!

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Guest TrueMetis

There are legitimate questions to be asked here, but of course it's not like you're interested in context.

And those questions where never asked in regards to jews because?

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Blah blah blah...

With each passing post it becomes more obvious that you either do not bother to think things through, are a complete idiot, or both.

Under your ridiculously low-burden definitons, anyone who was a Zionist in favour of Israel doing in the West Bank as they please would be anti-Palestinian. If they were anti-Palestinian, they would be opposed to the self-determination of the Palestintian people. And therefore there would be no debate possible about Israel by anyone who was either an anti-Semite or an anti-Palestinian, since in practice using your sort of definition being a pro-Semite or pro-Palestinian would almost guarantee being opposed to the other and there is no such thing in the political context as debating about Israel without debating about Palestine and vice versa.

You are obviously anti-Palestinian. So shut up.

Or recant.

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With each passing post it becomes more obvious that you either do not bother to think things through, are a complete idiot, or both.

Under your ridiculously low-burden definitons, anyone who was a Zionist in favour of Israel doing in the West Bank as they please would be anti-Palestinian. If they were anti-Palestinian, they would be opposed to the self-determination of the Palestintian people. And therefore there would be no debate possible about Israel by anyone who was either an anti-Semite or an anti-Palestinian, since in practice using your sort of definition being a pro-Semite or pro-Palestinian would almost guarantee being opposed to the other and there is no such thing in the political context as debating about Israel without debating about Palestine and vice versa.

You are obviously anti-Palestinian. So shut up.

Or recant.

With each passing post it becomes more obvious that you either do not bother to think things through, are a complete idiot, or both.

Dont let this guy goad you into a feces flinging contest Rem. He'd like nothing more.

I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger

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With each passing post it becomes more obvious that you either do not bother to think things through, are a complete idiot, or both.

Under your ridiculously low-burden definitons, anyone who was a Zionist in favour of Israel doing in the West Bank as they please would be anti-Palestinian. If they were anti-Palestinian, they would be opposed to the self-determination of the Palestintian people. And therefore there would be no debate possible about Israel by anyone who was either an anti-Semite or an anti-Palestinian, since in practice using your sort of definition being a pro-Semite or pro-Palestinian would almost guarantee being opposed to the other and there is no such thing in the political context as debating about Israel without debating about Palestine and vice versa.

You are obviously anti-Palestinian. So shut up.

Or recant.

I am absolutely opposed to Palestinian self-determination, because Palestinian self-determination is intent on the destruction of Israel and mass murder of Jews. When the Palestinian and broader Arab and Muslim society sincerely recognize Israel's existence to fulfill Jewish self-determination, in both actions and deeds, then we can talk. Until then, I will not apologize to being opposed to the full autonomy of a people who seek my destruction. The right to Palestinian self-determination does not come at the expense of Israel's security or existence. Until the society changes, and it hasn't moderated in any significant way (as an example, Abu Mazen, the "moderate", still refuses to acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state), it cannot be reconciled with and at best can only be managed.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Be honest, you know nothing about Palestinians. You know nothing about Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, the PA, Fatah, or any other terrorist group. Have you ever read ONE article on the various congresses they've had? What their stated objectives and resolutions are that are determined at these congresses? Ever watch an interview with Khaled Mashaal? You probably can't even name one of the thousands of terrorist attacks Israel has endured at the hands of its enemies, let alone the thousands of murders of Jews abroad at the hands of Islamic terrorists. You probably can't even name five Hamas or PA officials. Yet you know the name of Operation Cast Lead and whitephosphorous. You know about the fauxtilla incident.

You don't know the first thing about the people you claim to advocate on behalf of. You advocate for murders who do not wish for coexistence based on your ignorant perspective that we're all alike. It's this mental disorder that you and many others suffer from that wishes to see the world in a way you wish it was, rather than the way it really is.

My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!

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Listen. You schmuck. You moron. You idiot. You think you know more about the Jewish community than me?

This will help your cause in the long run I am sure. I could call you an asshole or a stupid little troll, but that won't help me prove you are an idiot. Your words do most of that.

You think Google searching obscure websites that nobody's ever heard of suggests that Zionism isn't an integral part of the global Jewish community, aside from some of its detractors (who may or may not be represented by these ridiculous websites)?

Google searching is actually a way the majority of Internet users, find things. You do know how Google as a search engine works right?

How arrogant and idiotic are you to talk to me about my own people?

I am sure arrogance on my part has something to do with it. Ignorant should have been the proper word to use here.

If you had any sense or genuine desire to understand the Jewish perspective of this conflict and Zionism's role in the Jewish community, you'd be asking me and other Jewish board members questions and not coming at me with fringe websites nobody's ever heard of.

You are new here so I can let this slide. People who post like you do, rarely last long on MLW. We do however have a couple resident experts on Jews and Israel. Rue is one for example. He/she will never call anyone an idiot to get the point across. I'll go to Rue for information on Jews and Israel before you. Rue at least has a decent track record for giving quality information without calling people idiots. You might want to give that a shot in your next post/thread.

The funniest thing about the modern internet is now everyone thinks they're an expert on everything.

You don't say. :D

Not only that, but the real idiots go to the most lunatic websites for information of "proof" of their ignorant positions. Funnier still, is that you know someone is angry and desperate when they start linking fringe websites as support for any argument.

Show me quality website and I'll show you a self hating, anti-semetic, anti-zionist jew.

How would you know I am angry? Does this Internet tell you so? In your short time here, you've become an expert on me? :D

Like I said, I'll let it slide because you are new here.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

ohm on soundcloud.com

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And those questions where never asked in regards to jews because?

Well, you're completely ignorant of Israeli and Zionist history, so of course you'd say something like that. All of these questions, and many more, were struggled with by many involved parties leading up to the creation of Israel. This includes Israel's entire leadership, from inception through to today.

Even within Israel, as in any free democratic society committed to self-improvement, struggles with internal questions about fairness to all people, in order to balance core values with Israel's Jewish character.

Look in the mirror and ask yourself honestly, what do you know about Israeli and Zionist history? Do you know what the White Paper of 1939 was? DO you know what the Peel Commission was? Do you know what the Exodus of 1947 was? Do you even know who Benny Morris and Avi Shlaim are? Can you name Israel's early leadership? Have you ever even read a single book regarding the origins of Israel and the Zionist movement? Maybe even a documentary? Clearly you haven't.

You and I know you're not equipped for a discussion of Israeli history - don't feel bad, you have no stake in these matters so of course you're not very motivated to educated yourself and cease your ignorance. I am ignorant of many things, but I also don't jump into conversations regarding subjects about which I know nothing without a lot of humility. Why are you even participating in this discussion when you don't have any tools with which to use? You should stay out of it until you've learned something.

Edited by Bob

My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!

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Succesfully resisting temptation, dre.

Hehe. I know. And dont let me tell you how to post, Iv certainly been guilty myself of getting drawn into this kinda thing. I aint no better than anyone else... I just noticed that this guy is getting more and more belligerent, and behaving more and more strange. At this point Im thinking engaging the guy further is pretty much pointless.

I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger

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Hehe. I know. And dont let me tell you how to post, Iv certainly been guilty myself of getting drawn into this kinda thing. I aint no better than anyone else... I just noticed that this guy is getting more and more belligerent, and behaving more and more strange. At this point Im thinking engaging the guy further is pretty much pointless.

It could be nothing more than a character account from another poster who wants to say stuff that normally they would not. And if the account is banned, the person won't feel so bad. It's not the first time I've seen this type of thing.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

ohm on soundcloud.com

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Get back to me when you've spent thousands of hours reading history books, memoirs, articles, attending lectures and debates, and watching documentaries and other media. Until then, don't get at me with your ignorant suppositions about this conflict. Be honest with yourself and admit your own ignorance. The Israeli-Arab conflict doesn't fit into the biased paradigm of your worldview pitting the "haves" against the "have-nots".

My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!

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Guest TrueMetis

Well, you're completely ignorant of Israeli and Zionist history, so of course you'd say something like that. All of these questions, and many more, were struggled with by many involved parties leading up to the creation of Israel.

Really? Let's look at those questions.

Would a Jewish state come at the expense of Arabian security?

Well yes, you can't just plop down a new country and expect it not to screw with the security of the surronding countries.

Would equal freedoms and protections (within reason) be extended to all who live in the potential Jewish state?

Stupid question you either give them rights or you don't, if you want to call yourself a first world country you give rights to everyone living in that country. You know what this is truly pathetic you were the one complaining about dhimmi rights being given to Jews and other people in Islamic countries but apparently it's fine for Israel to go ahead and do the same basic thing.

Are the majority of Jews communities calling for independence?

Isreal has about 5720598 jews, the total population of jews is about 13155000, that's a high amount but not a majority.

Are Jews in imminent threat of discrimination and murder?

No more than any other ethnic group.

Are there other options to fulfil First Nations self-determination that we might consider?

Doesn't seem like anyone thought of that question.

So either the questions where asked and no one really cared about the answer or they weren't asked.

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Get back to me when you've spent thousands of hours reading history books, memoirs, articles, attending lectures and debates, and watching documentaries and other media. Until then, don't get at me with your ignorant suppositions about this conflict. Be honest with yourself and admit your own ignorance. The Israeli-Arab conflict doesn't fit into the biased paradigm of your worldview pitting the "haves" against the "have-nots".

I doubt even you have spent the thousands of hours. Educated people rarely are this polarized.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

ohm on soundcloud.com

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Really? Let's look at those questions.

Would a Jewish state come at the expense of Arabian security?

What "Arabian security" are you talking about? Do you not know who was in control of surrounding territories in the years leading up to Israel's formation? More specifically, the land actually being talked about - the Palestine Mandate? Israel's posed no threat whatsoever to the surrounding nations. However, as soon as Israel declared independence, it was invaded by its Arab neighbours with the clear aim of the destruction of the state and liquidation of Jews. You're supremely ignorant of history.

Well yes, you can't just plop down a new country and expect it not to screw with the security of the surronding countries.

As usual, you've got it backwards. Israeli security was, and remains, threatened by its neighbours. Its establishment was in no way shape or form a threat to its neighbours, as neither the Jewish states words or deeds illustrated any security threat to its neighbours. What Israel did, however, was offend Muslim and Arab honour and machismo, which felt dissed having a Jewish independent state in its midst. Again, the moral equivalence police advocate on behalf of hostile dictatorship Arab states at the expense of democratic Israel.

Stupid question you either give them rights or you don't, if you want to call yourself a first world country you give rights to everyone living in that country. You know what this is truly pathetic you were the one complaining about dhimmi rights being given to Jews and other people in Islamic countries but apparently it's fine for Israel to go ahead and do the same basic thing.

What in the world are you talking about? All Israeli citizens enjoy equal rights. Palestinians under occupation are not Israeli citizens. Are you suggesting that Israel give citizenship to occupied Palestinians?

Isreal has about 5720598 jews, the total population of jews is about 13155000, that's a high amount but not a majority.

What the hell does this have to do with anything? You think Jews living outside of Israel aren't Zionists, or that all Zionist Jews of the diaspora must take it upon themselves to move to Israel

No more than any other ethnic group.

Pure ignorance. And even though you're wrong (Jews are more targeted than any other group on the planet, bar none, by terrorists), it's irrelevant. Even though other identifiable groups are at risk doesn't lessen the justification of a state as a tool towards self-defense. If First Nations were at risk of being murdered and discriminated against, it would add credence to a hypothetical popular movement towards independence.

Doesn't seem like anyone thought of that question.

So either the questions where asked and no one really cared about the answer or they weren't asked.

Again, supreme ignorance of history. I can no longer continue a conversation about this subject with someone who's not so much read a book about these matters. Keep on wallowing in ignorance.

My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!

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I doubt even you have spent the thousands of hours. Educated people rarely are this polarized.

I have spent thousand of hours. You haven't spent the tiniest fraction of that time on this subject. Seriously, though... why would you? It's not like you care and these issues have no meaning to you. You have no stake in these matters and I'm sure you've got more important and relevant things to learn about in your free time. Your ignorance is completely understandable.

My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!

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I doubt even you have spent the thousands of hours. Educated people rarely are this polarized.

Educated people generally are able to argue a subject without argumentum ad veracundiam (also known as deflective induction) as well, they dont constantly appeal to their own authority and constantly talk about how educated they are. That kind of thing is always a dead giveaway, and its also a well known form of intellectual dishonest and logical fallacy.

1. Source A says that p is true.

2. Source A is authoritative.

3. Therefore, p is true.

I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger

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Educated people generally are able to argue a subject without argumentum ad veracundiam (also known as deflective induction) as well, they dont constantly appeal to their own authority and constantly talk about how educated they are. That kind of thing is always a dead giveaway, and its also a well known form of intellectual dishonest and logical fallacy.

1. Source A says that p is true.

2. Source A is authoritative.

3. Therefore, p is true.

Now that you mention it, that does seem to be the case here with Bob. I am still pretty positive it is just a character account. We've seen this style before.

You'd even find hard line Zionists stepping back from this line of thinking and the rhetoric that follows.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

ohm on soundcloud.com

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Now that you mention it, that does seem to be the case here with Bob. I am still pretty positive it is just a character account. We've seen this style before.

You'd even find hard line Zionists stepping back from this line of thinking and the rhetoric that follows.

Yeah its pretty obvious any time someone starts talking about their supposed credentials, experience, and "education", over and over again in every post.

Someone with a strong command of the facts and a solid grasp of logic would never bother to do that. They also normally dont have temper tantrums a fire off endless barages of ad homs either.

I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger

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