Senior NDPer denies Israel's right to exist

[Topaz]

Hey, all you people out there, who really care about this, move to BC and vote against her because it going to be her voters that do or don't.

[Bryan]

The topic of this thread is a lie.

No one has denied Israel's right to exist and this is a simple case of McCarthyism by those who fear someone who legitimately criticizes Israel and will use any desperate attempt to jump at the person's throat.

Spot on. It's like Godwin's law in reverse.

[Oleg Bach]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utXDAha_vGg&feature=player_embedded#!

Despite the red faced distancing from the NDP....I doubt many of her cadre members disagree with her.

You would assume that all NDPers would be pro-Israel seeing they originated Kabutz style socialism and commie communal living..?

[normanchateau]

You would assume that all NDPers would be pro-Israel seeing they originated Kabutz style socialism and commie communal living..?

The NDP was strongly pro-Israel years ago when the Labor Party governed Israel. The Labor Party has long been out of power. Today Israel is governed by a leader who failed to win a majority and who holds power in part because he is strongly supported by social conservatives and religious zealots.

In other words, Israel has become Canada.

[GostHacked]

So you think I should start a thread about something that i don't agree with that happened 4 years ago....to make your flaccid point?

No one is stopping you!

[M.Dancer]

You have already made your point.

You are a political prostitute.

Yeah...c u next tuesday

[Oleg Bach]

The NDP was strongly pro-Israel years ago when the Labor Party governed Israel. The Labor Party has long been out of power. Today Israel is governed by a leader who failed to win a majority and who holds power in part because he is strongly supported by social conservatives and religious zealots.

In other words, Israel has become Canada.

FUNNY - some Jews feel so privleged that they actually believe that Canada is Israel.

[M.Dancer]

How do we know Davis meant 1948 instead of 1967 (of the two dates that were offered her she picked the earliest)?

She goes on to say and adds as clarifictaion to her 1948 date "..it's the longest occupation is the world"

China occupied Tibet in 1950-1 2 years after the creation of Israel.

Davios clearly meant that Israel's occupation is longer than China's occupation.

[normanchateau]

FUNNY - some Jews feel so privleged that they actually believe that Canada is Israel.

Well actually Israel is not quite Canada. Israel is currently governed by a coalition of losers. In the last election, Netanyahu's Likud Party came second, both in seats and percentage vote, to the first place Kadima. But Kadima didn't win a majority so Netanyahu was able to form a coalition of losers by bringing together the ultra-Orthodox and other social conservatives.

What's funny is that I've never heard Harper condemn Israel for being governed by a coalition of losers. I imagine Harper would do the same but there's no party to the right of the CPC.

Given that CPC is a merged coalition of the PCs and the Reform Party, in a sense we are now governed by a coalition of losers.

[Oleg Bach]

An invasion and occupation supported by Britian and America was simply a nice expansion of their empire into the middle east - I doubt very much if those non-jews who facilitated and financed the belated occupation of the holy land - really cared about religion or Jews or anything else - it is strickly an imperial problem to this day..It seems as I constantly mentioned -everyone wants to blame the Jews...for everything...You blame those that are in control - not those being controlled...America and their partners in imperialism..are in control - going back 2000 years the Roman empire was in total control - and Jew hate is based in misinformation - It was the Romans who were in total control during the arrest and assasination of Jesus the Christ..The state (Rome could have said NO..they said yes - kill him... and blamed the second rate henchmen that were Jewish..time to put the blame where it belongs - on imperialism ..not that I have a problem with empires..

[M.Dancer]

Not that Libby isn't familiar with Tibet...

http://www.tibet.ca/en/newsroom/upcoming_events/61

Sunday, March 8, 1:00pm to 2:30pm – Tibet Month Opening Rally

Vancouver Art Gallery (Robson Street Side)

Speeches by Libby Davies, MP, and representatives Canada Tibet Committee, Students for Free Tibet, Amnesty International, and the Tibetan community of British Columbia.

Featuring the Tibetan Children’s Music Ensemble of British Columbia.

[segnosaur]

The topic of this thread is a lie.

No one has denied Israel's right to exist...

Once again, since you don't seem to have understood...

Anyone who claims that "the occupation" began in the 1940s (i.e. when Israel is founded) and that said 'occupation' is wrong is denying Israel's right to exist. And that's what Libby said.

The only rational defense that could be offered is to claim she mis-spoke and/or is ignorant of specific details. And if that's the case, then why is someone speaking out when they're as ignorant of the facts as she is?

[Bonam]

In other words, they are hypocrites so unbelievably wanton that I genuinely don't think they even recognize their own hypocrisy...to say nothing of their hostility to thought and reason.

They are literally what they falsely accuse naomiglover of being.

Not really, there's an important difference. Naomi is on a crusade to further her anti-Israeli agenda, starting multiple threads almost daily on the topic. Me and many (perhaps not all) other posters on the opposite side of the argument, on the other hand, pretty much only post on the subject as needed to provide some response to the endless criticism of Israel. How many threads have I started on the topic of condemning or criticizing Palestine or Hamas? Zero in my three years here. How many pro-Israel threads? I think one in the three years.

The difference is clear, Naomi/dub is on a quest, the rest of us are just trying to provide some balance. I know that some of you would prefer an echo chamber of hatred and condemnation of Israel, but I don't think you are gonna get that on this board. Perhaps try rabble if you don't like people responding to the endless anti-Israel spam?

[segnosaur]

The NDP was strongly pro-Israel years ago when the Labor Party governed Israel. The Labor Party has long been out of power. Today Israel is governed by a leader who failed to win a majority and who holds power in part because he is strongly supported by social conservatives and religious zealots.

Unlike the glory days of the early 90s, when the Labor party ended up with less than 35% of the vote, but still managed to gain power, in part due to support from the Shas party (a conservatively religious party). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_legislative_election,_1992

Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with coalitions of this type. I'm just pointing out that criticizing the current government for not winning majorities and aligning with religious groups is a bit hipocritical, considering such activities are common (and probably necessary, given the political system) in Israel.

[ToadBrother]

An invasion and occupation supported by Britian and America was simply a nice expansion of their empire into the middle east - I doubt very much if those non-jews who facilitated and financed the belated occupation of the holy land - really cared about religion or Jews or anything else - it is strickly an imperial problem to this day..It seems as I constantly mentioned -everyone wants to blame the Jews...for everything...You blame those that are in control - not those being controlled...America and their partners in imperialism..are in control - going back 2000 years the Roman empire was in total control - and Jew hate is based in misinformation - It was the Romans who were in total control during the arrest and assasination of Jesus the Christ..The state (Rome could have said NO..they said yes - kill him... and blamed the second rate henchmen that were Jewish..time to put the blame where it belongs - on imperialism ..not that I have a problem with empires..

I won't bother asking if you know the history of the region, you're hatred of Jews and pure ignorance are proof enough against that. But a careful review of how exactly Britain (and France) gained a hold in the region is worth review. You could start by reading a little about the Ottoman Empire, in particular how it collapsed after WWI, and how in fact it had been being eaten on the margins (see Wahabism in the Arabian Peninsula) for well over a hundred years before that.

At any rate, the Brits were never that enthusiastic about that particular Mandate, and had made commitments of that kind. The territory was never "Palestinian", the Palestinian Arabs by and large being employed or indentured workers for absentee Turkish landlords. In fact no group even remotely indigenous (whatever that means in what amounts to the great crossroads between Europe, Asia and Africa) had controlled the region in well over 2,000 years.

[bloodyminded]

Not really, there's an important difference. Naomi is on a crusade to further her anti-Israeli agenda, starting multiple threads almost daily on the topic. Me and many (perhaps not all) other posters on the opposite side of the argument, on the other hand, pretty much only post on the subject as needed to provide some response to the endless criticism of Israel. How many threads have I started on the topic of condemning or criticizing Palestine or Hamas? Zero in my three years here. How many pro-Israel threads? I think one in the three years.

The difference is clear, Naomi/dub is on a quest, the rest of us are just trying to provide some balance. I know that some of you would prefer an echo chamber of hatred and condemnation of Israel, but I don't think you are gonna get that on this board. Perhaps try rabble if you don't like people responding to the endless anti-Israel spam?

I have no problem with people responding to anything, by anyone.

It's the disgusting racism that bothers me.

As I have made pretty clear.

[Moonlight Graham]

What does the post title have to do with the video?

At the very beginning of the video she says that "Israel needs to remove all of its illegal settlements. They are basically all illegal". The rest of the video is more moderate views, with her sticking up the the BDS movement and calls for more public dialogue on the Israel-Palestine issue.

I'm no expert on the Israel-Palestine issue, but the BDS movements seems fair and legit to me. It espouses non-violent means of protest, such as boycotting buying items that were made in Israel in areas within the Green Line.

Here's what the BDS movement is, from their website. It has some international legal merit it seems:

On July 9, 2005, one year after the historic Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ), which found Israel's Wall built on occupied Palestinian territory to be illegal, a clear majority of Palestinian civil society called upon international civil society organizations and people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel, similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era, until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people's inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with international law. BDS has been endorsed by over 170 Palestinian parties, organizations, trade unions and movements representing the Palestinian people in the 1967 and 1948 territories and in the diaspora. On July 13, 2005 the UN International Civil Society Conference adopted the Palestinian Call for BDS.

and this is interesting:

FAQ: How do I know what products to boycott, is there a list?

If the first three numbers of the bar code are 729, the product was made by Israel, within the Green Line or in one of the Israeli-controlled industrial zones built illegally inside the West Bank. However, there are also products made by Israel which do not have a bar code or use another number. There are also product components that are made by Israel but do not carry the 729 bar code; among these are computers and clothing.

If you think a product that does not have the 729 code may have been made by Israel, within the GReen Line or in its illegal settlements or industrial zones, ask the merchant who is selling the product and/or the product manufacturer.

We are developing a list of campaigns targeting specific Israeli products. We welcome your help by sending us the names of products, companies, their websites, reasons for them being singled out as a target and information about the campaign to boycott it.

[M.Dancer]

At the very beginning of the video she says that "Israel needs to remove all of its illegal settlements.

And if we take her word, israels occupation began in 1948...she also says it is the "longest occupation in the world"...which means that the Israeli occupation is even longer than the Chinese occupation of Tibet, another subject she feels qualified to speak publicly about.

By saying that the occupation began in 1948, she denies Israels right to exist.

[dre]

And if we take her word, israels occupation began in 1948...she also says it is the "longest occupation in the world"...which means that the Israeli occupation is even longer than the Chinese occupation of Tibet, another subject she feels qualified to speak publicly about.

By saying that the occupation began in 1948, she denies Israels right to exist.

Right, but you see this kind of shit everywhere you look. Youre obsessed with it.

The reality she has called for a two state solution in the past... so if she doesnt think Israel should be allowed, then I wonder who she figures the second state is gonna be?

This whole thread is just fuckin stupid. A 12 page thread about getting a date wrong

By saying that the occupation began in 1948, she denies Israels right to exist.

Edited June 24, 2010 by dre

[M.Dancer]

The reality she has called for a two state solution in the past... so if she doesnt think Israel should be allowed, then I wonder who she figures the second state is gonna be?

This whole thread is just fuckin stupid. A 12 page thread about getting a date wrong

\Yes that is what she claims now...she goofed. Given she is a supporter of Tibet, spoken at tibet rallies..etc ect...a given that the chinese occupation of Tibet Is The Longest Occupation in the World Today..when she said that Israel's occupation is the longest in the world today, was she still just getting the dates wrong or is she just bone stupid?

[dre]

\Yes that is what she claims now...she goofed. Given she is a supporter of Tibet, spoken at tibet rallies..etc ect...a given that the chinese occupation of Tibet Is The Longest Occupation in the World Today..when she said that Israel's occupation is the longest in the world today, was she still just getting the dates wrong or is she just bone stupid?

You make more mistakes than that in an average 5 minutes.

If this ladies position was that Israel should somehow be moved, or irradicated, or otherwise cease to exist, then you can be sure this wouldnt have been the first we heard of it.

[kimmy]

I have watched poster after poster admonish naomiglover for her "one-sidedness" on this issue, but consider:

naomiglover has many times--many times--claimed that Hamas has committed war crimes.

People would probably be more considerate of naomi if she were to stop being a human vuvuzela.

-k

Edited June 24, 2010 by kimmy

[M.Dancer]

You make more mistakes than that in an average 5 minutes.

If this ladies position was that Israel should somehow be moved, or irradicated, or otherwise cease to exist, then you can be sure this wouldnt have been the first we heard of it.

Why? You think she is and always will be a blabbermouth? Her position was, until admonished by the NDP PR department, that Israel is invalid, that it has been in a state of illegal occupation...the longest she said, in the world today.

Perhaps she would like to see it erradicated and knows it won't happen...

The options are she is either a stupid cow or she believes israel has no right to exist.

I would ,like to believe she is a stupid cow, I just don't think stupid cows rise to her position, even in the NDP...

[Bryan]

By saying that the occupation began in 1948, she denies Israels right to exist.

Not at all. There's a huge difference between objecting to how they operate and denying their right to exist.

[M.Dancer]

Not at all. There's a huge difference between objecting to how they operate and denying their right to exist.

Oh gosh....if she says they have been occupying since 1948..(and the occupation is illegal) then the only conlusion is israel is illegal. Israel was founded in..1948. She is basically denting the premis of Israel by saying israel's very foundation is occupation.