Senior NDPer denies Israel's right to exist

[TheLastCanadian]

Cheney, yes. What happens happens. There's not a lot we can do about that.

Debate would be dead with your aspiring method of tackling it.

When one questions Israel's right to exist, it is not out of doubt in their capacity to defend the land they have.

It is whether they have any proper claim to that land in the first place, and the reality is, from that perspective, they don't. Ability to control land does not make it right, not by today's standards anyhow, and I'd have hoped we'd have grown out of the standards of a hundred years ago.

The difference between scolding Israel for their actions, and scolding places like Canada for the actions of the Europeans is the fact that one is akin to scolding a child that didn't know better. The other is akin to throwing an adult in jail.

The Europeans and early Canadians saw nothing wrong with what they did. Yes, from today's perspective, that isn't right. But the fact is, they did it without any inkling that what they were doing was wrong. Just look at people like Kipling. By no means was what the Europeans perpetuated in Africa right, but they certainly thought they were doing the native populace some good.

The Israelis on the other hand not only have an acute experience of what being forced off of your land is like, but they are also a modern nation state in an age that has clearly condemned that whole might is right philosophy. They should know better, especially given their extensive history in the matter.

The Canadian government has made considerable efforts to redress what was done to the natives, even though most of it was the responsibility of the Europeans. We know what was done is wrong, and while I personally see no reason we should be accountable for the mistakes of our forefathers, I'm willing to accept the fact that they were wronged. Honestly, the Residential schools are the only thing we should have any role in compensating them for. That was intentional and malicious, especially given that we knew it was wrong at that point in time. Destroying native cultures was misguided, but certainly intended for their benefit at the time. Those people thought they were doing them a service. What past generations did in their misguided efforts cannot be undone.

Yes, our roots are the illegitimacy of conquest. But we've tried to fix that and work with these people to make up for it. It's not practical to ship us out, and at the very least we try to work with them rather than asserting our authority over them as the Israelis have done.

They just antagonize the Palestinians constantly, and don't kid me about the Autonomous region. The Israelis still call the shots.

Plus, there's still the land the natives signed over. That is legitimate. If they were too stupid to read the fine print or make sure they understood it, well, that's too bad for them.

The Israelis have yet to make any attempt at redress for what they have done to the Palestinians. The Palestinians didn't even get to sign it over, they weren't even consulted on the matter.

Edited July 5, 2010 by TheLastCanadian

[ToadBrother]

The Israelis have yet to make any attempt at redress for what they have done to the Palestinians. The Palestinians didn't even get to sign it over, they weren't even consulted on the matter.

Oh yes, the Palestinians have had it all done to them. They've done nothing to make Israelis distrust them. Those evil vile Israelis beating on the poor defenseless Palestinians.

[Bortron]

How is shutting down an entire state and removing everyone of a ethno-racial group from the territory peaceful?

Behind that is this notion that somehow the Jews don't belong there. They have proven the only way I know how that any population can prove that they belong by repeatedly winning wars of aggression against them. The reason the region is in the mess it is in is because the Arabs, who certainly had no legitimate claim to the region prior to the formation of Israel (for a history lesson folks, it was British Mandate, before that it was mainly owned Ottoman gentry, before that it was carved up between a number of Western European princes as the Crusader states, before that it belonged to the Byzantines, before that it was the Romans, and so on).

The Palestinian Arabs were supposed to have had a state, except they backed the wrong team, thought their inept brethren could beat the Israelis back, and lost out. How many wars do the Israelis have to win before historically naive people like you finally admit that they will not nor can they go anywhere else.

Well if they like being shot at and blown up, and like seeing their children grow up in at atmosphere of hate and violence then I guess they should stay because their is no better place for them to find these things.

[Bortron]

Of course you do. If your grandparents are British you can even get citizensip. Now getting those lands in your posseion is the easiest thing in the world, given they were sold by your anscestors, all you need do is buy them back.

This simple fact, private property can be sold underlies why in the palestine areas selling land to a Jew is punishable by death. Scotland is much nore liberal than Palestine. The Scots will only tax you.

lol I like that Idea. But my Scottish ancestors were forcibly removed from their land I believe as were my Acadian ancestors but I see what you mean about private property and its actually an argument in Israel's favor because it is true much of their land was purchased legally if I'm not mistaken.

[M.Dancer]

But my Scottish ancestors were forcibly removed from their land ....

One of the most enduring myths...

To the point, Scottish crofters had traditional pastoral priviledges....but ownership of the land remained in the hands of the nobility (Some scottish, some english). When the enclosures took place, it was more often than not, Scottish landlords evicting Scottish renters...in the modern context, A renter has no more claim on the property they lease other than what they have paid rent on.

[ToadBrother]

Well if they like being shot at and blown up, and like seeing their children grow up in at atmosphere of hate and violence then I guess they should stay because their is no better place for them to find these things.

Obviously a good many Jews do. Perhaps it's because for about two thousand years, everyone else was doing that sort of thing to Jews, the chief difference being that they now have defensible territory, and no one can try to wipe them out by the pot-shot method used by all those kindly Jew-hating countries of the past.

Israel isn't going anywhere, it has won every attempt to wipe it out. It owns the territory, and so far as I'm concerned, because the Arab states were to incompetent militarily to beat it, the Israelis have as good a claim to the Occupied Territories as anybody. I'm sure a fair chunk would be returned if the Palestinians showed any willingness to make a legitimate peace, but the Palestinians will never get it all back (ie. East Jerusalem). That's the price of losing wars. The Palestinians can join the Germans, Austrians, Japanese and many other losing belligerents on that one. You start wars and lose them, you lose ground. Israel has been significantly more co-operative in that regard than other states (don't exactly see the Poles wanting to return Danzig, the Russians wanting to return the Kurils or the Czechs wanting to return Bohemia). It did hand back the Sinai to Egypt, after all, something it didn't really have to do, seeing as it so thoroughly thumped the Egyptians.

[naomiglover]

However, there are many obstacles standing in the way of that happening, including legitimate security concerns as well as internal Israeli politics and settlers. Israel cannot simply pull out of the West Bank now, with nothing in return, no guarantee of security,

Security? I don't get it.

How is removing the settlements going to make Israel less secure? If anything, it will increase their security by removing the settlements and Israeli only roads that cut the West Bank into tiny areas, that have little access to each other, creating an open air prison.

[DogOnPorch]

Bonam also said: Also the reason I say this has nothing to do with international law, but with pragmatism. The best possible outcome for Israel is the establishment of a sovereign and independent Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, so that is what they should aim for.

[bush_cheney2004]

The difference between scolding Israel for their actions, and scolding places like Canada for the actions of the Europeans is the fact that one is akin to scolding a child that didn't know better. The other is akin to throwing an adult in jail.

Nonsense....unsettled land claims have festered for decades in Canada..up to this very day. Don't shine me on!

The Europeans and early Canadians saw nothing wrong with what they did. Yes, from today's perspective, that isn't right. But the fact is, they did it without any inkling that what they were doing was wrong. Just look at people like Kipling. By no means was what the Europeans perpetuated in Africa right, but they certainly thought they were doing the native populace some good.

Even more nonsense....that's why it is called conquest. Spare me from your noble savage rescue scenario....I can rent Avatar instead.

The Israelis on the other hand not only have an acute experience of what being forced off of your land is like, but they are also a modern nation state in an age that has clearly condemned that whole might is right philosophy. They should know better, especially given their extensive history in the matter.

Are you not recognizing that your own nation has troops deployed in Afghanistan to prove that "might makes right"? Last time I checked, Israel did not have any troops there.

...That was intentional and malicious, especially given that we knew it was wrong at that point in time. Destroying native cultures was misguided, but certainly intended for their benefit at the time. Those people thought they were doing them a service. What past generations did in their misguided efforts cannot be undone.

This statement is contradictory...and irrelevant. The point is that raw power {might} was used to subjugate indigenous people.

Yes, our roots are the illegitimacy of conquest. But we've tried to fix that and work with these people to make up for it. It's not practical to ship us out, and at the very least we try to work with them rather than asserting our authority over them as the Israelis have done.

"Work with these people"...you gotta be kidding! That's mighty white of you!

They just antagonize the Palestinians constantly, and don't kid me about the Autonomous region. The Israelis still call the shots.

I sure hope so.

Plus, there's still the land the natives signed over. That is legitimate. If they were too stupid to read the fine print or make sure they understood it, well, that's too bad for them.

ROTFLMAO! Dude...you're killing me!

The Israelis have yet to make any attempt at redress for what they have done to the Palestinians. The Palestinians didn't even get to sign it over, they weren't even consulted on the matter.

Nor will they be...let's just cut the bullshit. War and conquest...just like any other goddamn place on this planet. You want Israel to back off? Then make them.

[ironstone]

If that is your take. Why would her position be "get out of occupied Territories" if that was the case? Wouldn't it be "get rid of Israel"? I think Israel has a right to exist and should be recognized by all Arab states including Palestine. However I do not approve of illegal settlements, occupying territory illegally, and shutting the boarder to aid. Does that make me an Anti-Semite?

Did she or did she not mention 1948 in her statement?

[DogOnPorch]

Did she or did she not mention 1948 in her statement?

She clearly stated that the occupation had been going on since '48...with a footnote: "The longest occupation in the world."

But she doesn't want to argue numbers...lol.

[DogOnPorch]

But, hey! Libby believes that 'chemtrails' are being sprayed on the Canadian population and that 9-11 was an inside job...so that Israel is illegal since 1948 isn't such a surprise from her.

Edited July 6, 2010 by DogOnPorch