Israeli Navy Raids Gaza Aid Flotilla, 10 Confirmed Dead

[naomiglover]

Here is a link I hope all of you on both sides of this discussion will read.I can't stress how important it is to always listen to both sides of the debate,or argument in this case.If you keep a closed mind all the time,precious little gets in.

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/41492/

You are linking to Glenn Beck. Others can decide on their own, but I am not entering Glenn Beck into any of my political debates, just like I wouldn't enter the former Iraqi Information Minister into any political debates.

[naomiglover]

These are simple questions that are never directly answered by the apologists:

1. If Israel did nothing wrong, both in the Gaza massacre and the attack on the humanitarian ships, then why doesn't Israel agree to an international investigation?
   
2. If Israel is not occupying Gaza, then how do you explain the control of the borders, air and sea?
   
3. If Israel follows international law, as according to themselves, then why do they dismiss experts like Richard Goldstone, Amnesty International and the Red Cross who have repeatedly concluded, from their investigations, that Israel has violated international law?
   

Oh yeah.

4. Why does Israel continue to state that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, when Amnesty International and the UN Relief Agency, who are in Gaza, have stated that there is a humanitarian crisis, which includes over 60% of Gazan children who are malnourished?

[Guest American Woman]

Oh yeah.

4. Why does Israel continue to state that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, when Amnesty International and the UN Relief Agency, who are in Gaza, have stated that there is a humanitarian crisis, which includes over 60% of Gazan children who are malnourished?

A lot of children in the world are malnourished, and it isn't Israel's fault. Seriously. If that many children in the Gaza are malnourished because of Israel's actions, who do you ultimately hold responsible -- Israel, or their parents, for not putting their kids' needs first and moving elsewhere? I mean, it's not as if they are being prohibited from moving. If things are that bad there and parents are letting their kids suffer to the point where they are malnourished, I really have to wonder why you have no criticism of them. Are they putting their religious ideals before their children? Seems to me as if they are, and if they don't care any more about their children than they do their religious ideals, makes me wonder why they, or you, would expect Israelis to.

[naomiglover]

A lot of children in the world are malnourished, and it isn't Israel's fault. Seriously. If that many children in the Gaza are malnourished because of Israel's actions, who do you ultimately hold responsible -- Israel, or their parents,

Simple. Israel for not allowing enough food to get in. Food that is waiting to get in. Until not too long ago, pasta was banned from entering Gaza. I hold Israel responsible for this.

Do you know the travel restrictions going in and out of Gaza? How will the families move when majority are living in poverty levels? Where will the families move to? To another ghetto?

Israel is responsible for this humanitarian crisis. Not only are they not allowing enough food and other supplies in (including medicine), but they have also restricted movement. Not to mention the devastating attack that has demolished an already infrastructure.

Since you stepped up and tried to answer #4, care to give a response to the rest of the questions? I would like to see a direct response from an apologist to the following:

1. If Israel did nothing wrong, both in the Gaza massacre and the attack on the humanitarian ships, then why doesn't Israel agree to an international investigation?
   
2. If Israel is not occupying Gaza, then how do you explain the control of the borders, air and sea?
   
3. If Israel follows international law, as according to themselves, then why do they dismiss experts like Richard Goldstone, Amnesty International and the Red Cross who have repeatedly concluded, from their investigations, that Israel has violated international law?
   

[M.Dancer]

This is footage seized from the journalists on board the ship. Don't be naive and think that the IDF isn't selectively editing this stuff to the max. This IS the Middle East after all . . .

And again, for the record, the way Israel boarded this vessel goes against their OWN standard procedure, which has worked numerous times before WITHOUT INCIDENT.

I think the IDF certainly deserves some blame for the gung-ho recklessness of this incident - and the Israeli public seems to think so as well.

Keep in mind the above comments come from someone who is falsely claiming he hasn't made up his mind....

[Guest American Woman]

Simple. Israel for not allowing enough food to get in. Food that is waiting to get in. Until not too long ago, pasta was banned from entering Gaza. I hold Israel responsible for this.

So "no pasta" equals "malnourished?"

And you may hold Israel responsible, but like I said, it's not as if there are no malnourished children outside the Gaza. And if it is because Israel won't allow pasta in, where to you begin to hold the parents responsible?

Do you know the travel restrictions going in and out of Gaza? How will the families move when majority are living in poverty levels? Where will the families move to? To another ghetto?

I'm not referring to "travel." As for moving, you honestly think Israel would prevent them from moving?? As for your question regarding where they would move to, "another ghetto," you ask, so apparently Israel isn't responsible for other ghettos, is that it? If they would be malnourished in "another ghetto," too, how do you justify solely blaming Israel?

Israel is responsible for this humanitarian crisis. Not only are they not allowing enough food and other supplies in (including medicine), but they have also restricted movement. Not to mention the devastating attack that has demolished an already infrastructure.

Yes, I'm sure they're keeping the Palestinians in Gaza. They are "restricting their movement" so they can't move out. Do you realize how contradictory and moronic that statement is?

Since you stepped up and tried to answer #4, care to give a response to the rest of the questions? I would like to see a direct response from an apologist to the following:

You won't get any response from me as long as you ask for a response from "the apologists." I don't waste my time answering questions from morons name callers. If you want an intelligent response, then make an intelligent post. Until then, I'll simply call you out on your one-sided "blame."

[Argus]

[*]If Israel did nothing wrong, both in the Gaza massacre and the attack on the humanitarian ships, then why doesn't Israel agree to an international investigation?

First, because it feels the investigation is unlikely to be unbiased. And it has some justification for that suspicion. Second because, technically, it probably violated international law by stopping the ships before they entered its self-declared exclusion zone. And any body like the UN will certainly mention that prominently in its reports.

[*]If Israel is not occupying Gaza, then how do you explain the control of the borders, air and sea?

You don't have to occupy a place to be in a state of conflict with it. Witness the UK declaring an exclusion zone all along the Argentine coastline when it was involved with the Falklands dispute.

[*]If Israel follows international law, as according to themselves, then why do they dismiss experts like Richard Goldstone, Amnesty International and the Red Cross who have repeatedly concluded, from their investigations, that Israel has violated international law?

Because Israel doesn't always follow international law. It feels its defense requires some measure - as for example, targeted assassinations of terrorist leaders - which are not acceptable conduct by law. A lot of nations feel the same, btw, including the US, China, Russia, France, the UK, North Korea, etc. None of them will admit they don't follow international law to the letter either, btw.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Argus

[dre]

So "no pasta" equals "malnourished?"

And you may hold Israel responsible, but like I said, it's not as if there are no malnourished children outside the Gaza. And if it is because Israel won't allow pasta in, where to you begin to hold the parents responsible?

I'm not referring to "travel." As for moving, you honestly think Israel would prevent them from moving?? As for your question regarding where they would move to, "another ghetto," you ask, so apparently Israel isn't responsible for other ghettos, is that it? If they would be malnourished in "another ghetto," too, how do you justify solely blaming Israel?

Yes, I'm sure they're keeping the Palestinians in Gaza. They are "restricting their movement" so they can't move out. Do you realize how contradictory and moronic that statement is?

You won't get any response from me as long as you ask for a response from "the apologists." I don't waste my time answering questions from morons name callers. If you want an intelligent response, then make an intelligent post. Until then, I'll simply call you out on your one-sided "blame."

Your whole argument that the parents are to blame for not moving their families really doesnt apply. Its nowhere near as easy as that. Most of the palestinians that have left the occupied territories are living in various refugee camps in surrounding countries. These people dont have a whole lot of options.

Also you laugh at the fact Israel has banned pasta and other foods... but dont you kind of wonder why those things would be included in a blockade that is set up under the pretense of security? That doesnt raise any kind of red flag? Im going by the assumption that those things ARE banned of course... Iv never actually seen a list.

[Guest American Woman]

Your whole argument that the parents are to blame for not moving their families really doesnt apply.

No, that's not my whole argument.

Its nowhere near as easy as that. Most of the palestinians that have left the occupied territories are living in various refugee camps in surrounding countries. These people dont have a whole lot of options.

Proof, please. Proof that they want to leave Gaza but they can't. Proof that there aren't humanitarian groups that would help them move. If things are as horrible are they are being presented here, please provide proof that things wouldn't be better in another refugee camp. Please provide proof that Palestinians have been leaving Gaza in droves and are occupying refugee camps in surrounding countries as a result.

Also you laugh at the fact Israel has banned pasta and other foods... but dont you kind of wonder why those things would be included in a blockade that is set up under the pretense of security?

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that pasta is "banned."

That doesnt raise any kind of red flag? Im going by the assumption that those things ARE banned of course... Iv never actually seen a list.

Ok, you've just verified my response. I don't make any such "assumptions."

[M.Dancer]

Oh, it absolutely disproves something - it disproves your claim that this was a "terrorist rally" full of Hezbollah supporters and flags.

If the reporters who were there, didn't even mention in their reports that they saw a few flags, that means that there were little to none actually present - meaning, there were so few it was not newsorthy. If 15 000 people hold a rally about any given cause, and a dozen wave a flag of a certain organization - it's not indicative of the rest of the participants.

I mean you can't even find one report from anyone who was present at the rally to back up your claims.

Canadian politicians were dead wrong to march in a Montreal demonstration

under the flag of Hezbollah. While they may have been motivated by a desire to

express their solidarity with the suffering of innocent Lebanese civilians, they

instead validated the terrorist group that effectively has held an entire nation

hostage as it pursues Iran's proxy war against Israel

http://www.friendsofsimonwiesenthalcenter.com/news_room_2006.aspx

No you are right..there were no hezbollah supporters there...

The majority of the people at Montreal's protest were condemning Israeli attacks and defending Hezbollah rocket attacks, an attitude common to many of the anti-war protests in Montreal since the beginning of the conflict.

http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20060806/montreal_protest_060806?hub=MontrealHome

On Sunday, the leaders of the Parti Quebecois and the Bloc Quebecois, a Liberal member of Parliament and one of the co-spokespersons for Quebec Solidaire marched together at the head of about 15,000 other Quebecers for "justice and peace" in Lebanon.

Somewhere behind them, among those of Lebanon, Quebec and Canada, flew more than one flag of Hezbollah. (For the benefit of the reporters for some other media who apparently missed it, it was the one with the green assault rifle on the yellow background).

http://www.vigile.net/It-s-safe-to-support-terrorists

[M.Dancer]

Oh, and we'll forget that claim about Canadian charities donating money to Hamas, right?

Lets not...

HAMAS Funding

HAMAS receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states. Some fundraising and propaganda activities take place in Western Europe and North America. As of 2003 US intelligence sources estimated that the militant Palestinian group Hamas had an annual budget of 50 million dollars, raising much of that money through its reputation as a charity. Despite its notoriety worldwide as a terrorist group, many Palestinians see Hamas as a charitable organization that builds schools and hospitals and steps in where the Palestinian Authority has failed.

The Hamas organization is also operating in European countries and the United States, mainly among the Palestinian population, by conducting fundraising (through charity associations and foundations - Dawa activity). Some of the funds received are channeled to finance terrorist activity in Israel, and other monies are intended for the funding of Hamas civilian activity. The United States is seeking to bankrupt

Hamas by undermining its reputation as a charity

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-funds.htm

[Jack Weber]

Hey Dancer...In that quote above,did you notice the words ...

Check that,you're too fast...post #510

Hezbollah

Proxy

War

Iran

...and,

Israel??????

Was'nt I admonished by our Femme Fatale of Fatah that that was not the case?

Edited June 4, 2010 by Jack Weber

[segnosaur]

Simple. Israel for not allowing enough food to get in. Food that is waiting to get in. Until not too long ago, pasta was banned from entering Gaza. I hold Israel responsible for this.

Strangely enough, the West Bank, who did not elect Hamas (a group who has openly called for the destruction of Israel) had no such restrictions on the importation of pasta.

The West bank, which had launched far fewer rocket attacks than Gaza over the past years, had no such restriction of Pasta.

You know, someone who was able to think reasonably and logically might conclude that Hamas and the terrorists using Gaza as a launch point for terrorist activity might have something to do with the blockade.

* If Israel did nothing wrong, both in the Gaza massacre and the attack on the humanitarian ships, then why doesn't Israel agree to an international investigation?

How about because they are worried that people like you will pre-judge them?

* If Israel is not occupying Gaza, then how do you explain the control of the borders, air and sea?

Nobody is denying Israel controls the borders of Gaza (well, most of the borders.)

Not really sure why its relevant whether Gaza fits the definition of 'occupied' though. It does to a large extent, but Hamas (you know, the group that has called for the destruction of Israel) exerts internal control over the territory (including issues of policing and security).

* If Israel follows international law, as according to themselves, then why do they dismiss experts like Richard Goldstone, Amnesty International and the Red Cross who have repeatedly concluded, from their investigations, that Israel has violated international law?

You mean the same 'Goldstone' who, as part of his team investigating the invasion of Gaza, included individuals who had prejudged Israel (and claimed that they would not be on his team if it were an actual criminal investigation)?

The same red cross who refused to allow Israel to use the Star of David as its symbol for its version of the 'Red Cross'?

The same Amnesty International who sent around a supposed victim of sexual assault during the Gulf War, only to find that the person was a plant?

Yeah, the Red Cross and Amnesty International may have done some good work in the past, but that does not mean they should be seen as infallible.

[BCMan]

Breaking: The Irish aid ship, the Rachel Corrie is less than 100 miles from Gaza.

Those on board the Rachel Corrie have made clear their peaceful intentions and have stated that they will offer no resistance to Israeli forces.

"Based on these assurances, there can be no justification for the use of force against any person on board."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/10240856.stm

Why don’t the Irish just give IDF some of their delicious Irish cookies that will slow them down.

Hey dancer, How are you?

[Jack Weber]

Breaking: The Irish aid ship, the Rachel Corrie is less than 100 miles from Gaza.

Those on board the Rachel Corrie have made clear their peaceful intentions and have stated that they will offer no resistance to Israeli forces.

"Based on these assurances, there can be no justification for the use of force against any person on board."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/10240856.stm

Why don’t the Irish just give IDF some of their delicious Irish cookies that will slow them down.

Hey dancer, How are you?

I think Jameson might be a better choice?

[BCMan]

Yes. But some people like cookies more because it has more fat and can slow down brain process.

I think Jameson might be a better choice?

[Black Dog]

Packing...and not using...they needed permission to fire. In one video where an IDF member is being beaten with clubs, another IDF member is shooting at the militants with...paintballs!!!

So you concede they were carrying weapons, which makes me wonder why you took umbrage at my description of the commandos as "heavily armed" earlier.My guess is you were sitting on some paintball jokes and wanted to offload them. Ahyukyukyuk.

It is alos evident form the weapons siezed that the mititants never considered passive resistence...

What weapons? Link? Also: spelling.

[ironstone]

You are linking to Glenn Beck. Others can decide on their own, but I am not entering Glenn Beck into any of my political debates, just like I wouldn't enter the former Iraqi Information Minister into any political debates.

Keeping that mind shut up good and tight eh Naomi?

[Black Dog]

Keeping that mind shut up good and tight eh Naomi?

Normally I'd agree with you, but in this case: it's Glenn Beck. 'Nuff said.

[M.Dancer]

So you concede they were carrying weapons, which makes me wonder why you took umbrage at my description of the commandos as "heavily armed" earlier.My guess is you were sitting on some paintball jokes and wanted to offload them. Ahyukyukyuk.

What weapons? Link? Also: spelling.

Are you that lazy? They confiscated sling shots, mmachetes, flash bangs etc....and carrying a side arm is not usually considered heavily armed...that and the fact the side arms were holstered...dom you normally consider a constable heavily armed?...

[Black Dog]

Are you that lazy? They confiscated sling shots, mmachetes, flash bangs etc....[/b]...

I did a search. No to flash bangs and machetes. Not much you wouldn't find at Home Depot.

and carrying a side arm is not usually considered heavily armed...that and the fact the side arms were holstered...dom you normally consider a constable heavily armed?

Relative to an unarmed person or Dennis the Menace: yes.

[dre]

No, that's not my whole argument.

Proof, please. Proof that they want to leave Gaza but they can't. Proof that there aren't humanitarian groups that would help them move. If things are as horrible are they are being presented here, please provide proof that things wouldn't be better in another refugee camp. Please provide proof that Palestinians have been leaving Gaza in droves and are occupying refugee camps in surrounding countries as a result.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that pasta is "banned."

Ok, you've just verified my response. I don't make any such "assumptions."

I had a quick look for a list of banned items but apparently Israel refuses to even tell people what they are.

Proof, please. Proof that they want to leave Gaza but they can't. Proof that there aren't humanitarian groups that would help them move. If things are as horrible are they are being presented here, please provide proof that things wouldn't be better in another refugee camp. Please provide proof that Palestinians have been leaving Gaza in droves and are occupying refugee camps in surrounding countries as a result.

No sorry Im not going to look for negative proof of a bunch of assumptions you made up. YOU are the one suggested these people can improve their situations by leaving. YOU prove it.

In any case I dont think they should have to leave as a result of Israels policy of collective punishment.

[Guest American Woman]

I had a quick look for a list of banned items but apparently Israel refuses to even tell people what they are.

If there's no list, doesn't it make you wonder where the whole 'pasta is banned' claim is coming from?

I did find an article that spoke of pasta going into Gaza and Israel "banning" it until it was determined that it was going to Gaza residents rather than to Hamas. Seems fair enough to me.

No sorry Im not going to look for negative proof of a bunch of assumptions you made up.

"Assumptions" *I* "made up?" If Israel is to blame for the kids' malnourishment, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would be better off elsewhere? Unless Israel isn't to blame. I mean, if they would be just as bad off elsewhere, how can one blame Israel?

YOU are the one suggested these people can improve their situations by leaving. YOU prove it.

The "suggestion" was made that Palestinians are so bad off because of Israel. If that's the case, seems logical that they would be better off elsewhere. If you don't think they would be better off elsewhere, seems to me you are proving that Israel isn't the reason for their plight.

In any case I dont think they should have to leave as a result of Israels policy of collective punishment.

As a parent, even if I 'shouldn't have to leave,' if it were harming my kids to stay, I would have to put responsibility of myself, too, for my children's plight; and doing so, I would leave. You honestly think if parents stay in a situation that's bad for their kids, they bear no responsibility?

And of course there's no justifiable/understandable reason for Israel's policies, right? It's all "bad, bad Israel," and "poor, poor Palestinians." Voting Hamas in had no bearing on Israel's actions, is that it?

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about Hamas bulldozing Palestinians' homes? That thread sure hasn't had the responses that threads on Israel's actions have had. Not by a long shot.

[BCMan]

Its like some people are so scared now that they are trying to hide and dare not give any response when their arguments lose because you owned them.

however, Flickr images of weapons posted by IDF from the ships are from 2003 and 2006...l

inks:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/

Most of the photos are from 2003 and 2006.

Edited June 4, 2010 by BCMan

[naomiglover]

Seriously American Woman. You are blaming the humanitarian crisis and the malnourishment of the children on the parents. You sad, sad person.

You started out somewhat objective, but, I guess desperate times require desperate measures. As the world, outside of the average activist, starts to wake up to the Israeli violations of humanitarian laws, the apologists have to kick it up a gear.

You have fast sunk into a desperate defender of evil. Shame on you and people like you.