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Israeli Navy Raids Gaza Aid Flotilla, 10 Confirmed Dead


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Guest American Woman

Seriously American Woman. You are blaming the humanitarian crisis and the malnourishment of the children on the parents. You sad, sad person.

Yes, shame of me for putting blame on parents for their children's plight. I should be absolving them of all responsibility. Only a sad, sad person would expect parents to care enough about their children to take them out of a bad situation, regardless of who was to blame for that bad situation.

You started out somewhat objective

Oh, thank you! High praise indeed, coming from such a admirable person as yourself. :P

but, I guess desperate times require desperate measures. As the world, outside of the average activist, starts to wake up to the Israeli violations of humanitarian laws, the apologists have to kick it up a gear.

And there's the "apologist" claim again. I swear you can't post without throwing that accusation about. It makes your case soooo much stronger to simply throw about such terms. Such intelligence.

You have fast sunk into a desperate defender of evil. Shame on you and people like you.

Oh yes. Shame on me. A "defender of evil." While you have to wait to find out if "morally wrong" acts are "legal" or not before you condemn them. Oh, if only we all could have such strong moral character.

:lol: times infinity. Seriously naomiglover.

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There us no starvation id Gaza. despite Dubs lies...

Your fingers get fatter when your lies get bigger.

Amnesty International:

Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians

1 June 2010

Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.

Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.

Read all about it, here.

Richard Goldstone's conclusion, after his investigation in Gaza:

"The primary purpose" of the economic blockade Israel imposed on Gaza was to "bring about a situation in which the civilian population wuld find life so intolerable that they would turn Hamas out of office, as well as to collectively punish the civilain population,".

Collective punishment is illegal under international law. But since when did you or the apologists care for international law?

It's your word (aka Israeli propaganda machine) against legal experts and organizations.

You lose.

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If there's no list, doesn't it make you wonder where the whole 'pasta is banned' claim is coming from?

I did find an article that spoke of pasta going into Gaza and Israel "banning" it until it was determined that it was going to Gaza residents rather than to Hamas. Seems fair enough to me.

"Assumptions" *I* "made up?" If Israel is to blame for the kids' malnourishment, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would be better off elsewhere? Unless Israel isn't to blame. I mean, if they would be just as bad off elsewhere, how can one blame Israel?

The "suggestion" was made that Palestinians are so bad off because of Israel. If that's the case, seems logical that they would be better off elsewhere. If you don't think they would be better off elsewhere, seems to me you are proving that Israel isn't the reason for their plight.

As a parent, even if I 'shouldn't have to leave,' if it were harming my kids to stay, I would have to put responsibility of myself, too, for my children's plight; and doing so, I would leave. You honestly think if parents stay in a situation that's bad for their kids, they bear no responsibility?

And of course there's no justifiable/understandable reason for Israel's policies, right? It's all "bad, bad Israel," and "poor, poor Palestinians." Voting Hamas in had no bearing on Israel's actions, is that it?

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about Hamas bulldozing Palestinians' homes? That thread sure hasn't had the responses that threads on Israel's actions have had. Not by a long shot.

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about Hamas bulldozing Palestinians' homes? That thread sure hasn't had the responses that threads on Israel's actions have had. Not by a long shot.

I think its sick, and utterly retarded. Tearing down peoples homes isnt a very usefull way to solve a humanitarian crisis. Hamas is a rage merchant... they are only in power because people there are pissed off at their situation so they have every incentive NOT to make things better, and every incentive not work towards peace.

And of course there's no justifiable/understandable reason for Israel's policies, right? It's all "bad, bad Israel," and "poor, poor Palestinians." Voting Hamas in had no bearing on Israel's actions, is that it?

No thats not it. A lot of Isreals policies make sense are well aligned with their own self interest like the policies of all other nations are.

Voting Hamas in had no bearing on Israel's actions, is that it?

No thats not it. Hamas's election in Gaza does have a bearing on Israel's actions just like Israels actions had a bearing on Hamas's election. People that are the subject of a long and brutal military occupation arent normally going to elect doves. They elect militant firebrand types.

As a parent, even if I 'shouldn't have to leave,' if it were harming my kids to stay, I would have to put responsibility of myself, too, for my children's plight; and doing so, I would leave. You honestly think if parents stay in a situation that's bad for their kids, they bear no responsibility?

Neither of can judge that because we dont know the facts. You have no idea whats involved for a dirt poor gaza resident to leave their home and try to immigrate somewhere else. And you could make the same case about people in poor regions all over the world... Why didnt ethipian families just up leave during the famine there? Its just not that simple.

"Assumptions" *I* "made up?" If Israel is to blame for the kids' malnourishment, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would be better off elsewhere? Unless Israel isn't to blame. I mean, if they would be just as bad off elsewhere, how can one blame Israel?

I dont blame Israel alone for the mess over there. Theres a whole shitload of blame to go around on both sides. Although I generally blame the leadership on both sides for prolonging the conflict indefinately, and consider the average folks on both sides harmed by the conflict as being victims.

Quick question... would you blame the victims of suicide bombings or rocket attacks in Israel for their deaths, losses or injuries too? After all... they know theres risk in living in a war zone... they could have just left too right?

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Naomiglover, there is no use discussing with dancer. His mind is made up and he has been sent here for a mission.

When dancer has no answer and has lost the debate he hides himself from the shame.

The figures given by Amnesty international have been confirmed by the UN.

Your fingers get fatter when your lies get bigger.

Amnesty International:

Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians

1 June 2010

Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.

Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.

Read all about it, here.

Richard Goldstone's conclusion, after his investigation in Gaza:

"The primary purpose" of the economic blockade Israel imposed on Gaza was to "bring about a situation in which the civilian population wuld find life so intolerable that they would turn Hamas out of office, as well as to collectively punish the civilain population,".

Collective punishment is illegal under international law. But since when did you or the apologists care for international law?

It's your word (aka Israeli propaganda machine) against legal experts and organizations.

You lose.

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Guest American Woman
I think its sick, and utterly retarded. Tearing down peoples homes isnt a very usefull way to solve a humanitarian crisis. Hamas is a rage merchant... they are only in power because people there are pissed off at their situation so they have every incentive NOT to make things better, and every incentive not work towards peace.

It definitely isn't a good way to solve a humanitarian crisis, yet Israel is the devil incarnate for doing it while Hamas gets nary a peep from those who criticize Israel and anyone who doesn't agree wholeheartedly with Palestine's POV for doing it. The fact of the matter is, though, that Hamas is officially part of Palestine's government/actions. So I find it odd that one side would be judged so harshly.

No thats not it. A lot of Isreals policies make sense are well aligned with their own self interest like the policies of all other nations are.

That's just it; all nations policies are aligned with their own self interest, especially when staying alive against those who would like to see them dead is part of that self interest. Yet Israel is constantly condemned for doing what any other nation would do under the same circumstances. Israel stands alone in an area surrounded by religious Islamic governments; a religion that has many followers who do not take kindly to Jews/infidels. There is no tolerance for any other religion in this area for the most part. Yet Israel is the one expected to rise above it all. Israel has as much a right to exist and protect itself as Palestine does.

No thats not it. Hamas's election in Gaza does have a bearing on Israel's actions just like Israels actions had a bearing on Hamas's election. People that are the subject of a long and brutal military occupation arent normally going to elect doves. They elect militant firebrand types.

By the same token, the government of a people who have a long and brutal history of being killed and subjected to "kill the Jews" type mentality aren't going to always act like doves. That's why I don't get the "understanding" that people seem to have only for the Palestinians.

Neither of can judge that because we dont know the facts. You have no idea whats involved for a dirt poor gaza resident to leave their home and try to immigrate somewhere else. And you could make the same case about people in poor regions all over the world... Why didnt ethipian families just up leave during the famine there? Its just not that simple.

You say neither of us can judge because we don't know the facts, yet "judging" is exactly what blaming Israel for the Palestinians malnourishment is; and it's that initial judgment that I was responding to.

But no, I don't have any idea what's involved for a dirt poor Gaza resident to leave their home and try to emigrate elsewhere, but I do know that millions of people have done just that, and many who were prevented by their government from leaving would have loved the opportunity to do so. Many of our ancestors came here to live a better life, with better opportunities, even though it wasn't easy. Some endured horrible circumstances/conditions in order to better their lives. America, for example, wasn't populated by the rich and satisfied for the most part. "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses..."

Have the parents of these malnourished children tried to leave Gaza? I don't see any evidence of their desire to leave.

I dont blame Israel alone for the mess over there. Theres a whole shitload of blame to go around on both sides. Although I generally blame the leadership on both sides for prolonging the conflict indefinately, and consider the average folks on both sides harmed by the conflict as being victims.

Of course neither side is blameless for what's happened/happening, as no country in the history of time has ever been 'without fault'/perfect. Yet Israel is so often singled out as 'the bad guy.' I have the feeling you yourself are doing that with your explanation for Hamas being elected by the Palestinians, which shows an understanding of where they are coming from, as I see no understanding of why Israel may also act in non-dove like ways.

At any rate, I too feel the citizens on both sides are being harmed, but I can't think of any conflict where that wasn't true.

But in this instance, regarding the topic of this thread, I can't understand the vitriolic criticism directed at Israel, much less solely at Israel. The activists say their desire was to peacefully pass the blockade, but what they apparently mean is that as long as they were allowed to break the blockade without any interference, then they would be peaceful.

But anyone who expects to be allowed to just go through a blockade unquestioned is pretty ignorant of reality and what a blockade actually is. Five of the ships allowed Israel to board and inspect their cargo, the sixth did not. When one interferes in a country's government/conflict, one has to abide by the consequences. In this instance, that would have meant being respectful of Israel's stance/desire to make sure no weapons were being brought in, and allowing the soldiers to peacefully board and inspect their cargo. If weapons were being brought in, then the activists were not "peaceful," they were taking an active part in the conflict. If weapons weren't being brought it, why the resistance from this last ship in the flotilla? And who does one ultimately blame for the outcome of their resistance? As I said before, soldiers can't be expected to just stand there and be beat to a pulp.

Quick question... would you blame the victims of suicide bombings or rocket attacks in Israel for their deaths, losses or injuries too? After all... they know theres risk in living in a war zone... they could have just left too right?

That's not a comparable question. One doesn't know where a suicide bombing will take place or where a rocket will hit. One cannot escape an unknown. One does know what the living conditions in Gaza are; that's not an unknown.

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Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.

How horrifying! Uhm, wait, wasn't that simply a dramatic variation of an encyclopedia text "The Gaza strip is 40 kilometers long and just 9.5 kilometers wide. It's population is 1.4 million people."

Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid.

As I understand it, humanitarian aid, most of it American, has been paying virtually the entire budget for the Palestinian Authority for a very long time, has it not?. Isn't high unemployment, poverty, etc, almost certain in a war zone where people keep shooting at each other?

As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.

Yes, I think it is probably collective punishment, or perhaps, collective inducement to vote for someone else next time around. Understandable, though. I don't find it particularly misplaced in this instance.

Edited by Argus
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Here is a link I hope all of you on both sides of this discussion will read.I can't stress how important it is to always listen to both sides of the debate,or argument in this case.If you keep a closed mind all the time,precious little gets in.

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/41492/

Glenn Beck?

You could've linked to Deshowitz, but you chose that rodeo-clown to represent the hardline Israel supporter position?

This was the moron who claimed there was an anti-Israeli bias in American media and that no networks other than Fox were showing IDF video of the flotilla incident . . . Except they were (Great Daily Show Bit) . . .

The man is either completely disconnected from reality, a blatant propagandist, or an opportunist.

He is not someone you should be turning to for informed opinion.

Edited by JB Globe
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Keep in mind the above comments come from someone who is falsely claiming he hasn't made up his mind....

You've made up your mind in advance that are going to blindingly support the neo-con/fundamentalist position on Israel no matter what the incident is.

I gave this situation a few days for the facts to come to light before making up my mind.

If I wait 4 months, nothing new is going to come out - that investigation Israel is planning is going to be as objective as most of their investigations on politically sensitive incidents are: not very.

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Still can't find a real source? Than why do you keep trying? Maybe it's better to just give this one up buddy, you're making yourself look like a fool . . .

^^^ - SWC is strongly Pro Israel, they are not an objective source, and they weren't present at the protest.

^^^

That one's blank.

^^^

A columnist who wasn't present at the rally.

So we've learned that there were a few people waving what? Less than a dozen Hezbollah flags? Out of 15 000 people?

A terrorist rally, that does not make.

Give this up - just like you gave up trying to find evidence of Canadian Islamic charities sending money to Hamas.

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Brekaing: Turkish PM to escort aid ship to Gaza guarded by the Navy

If Israel attacks, it’s a direct declaration of war over NATO. The best decision would be to gain some world support by allowing an international probe and signing NPT before things really get ugly. There is no need for world war 3.

Source: Google

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Guest American Woman

Brekaing: Turkish PM to escort aid ship to Gaza guarded by the Navy

If Israel attacks, it’s a direct declaration of war over NATO. The best decision would be to gain some world support by allowing an international probe and signing NPT before things really get ugly. There is no need for world war 3.

Source: Google

If Turkey tries to run the blockade or resist a cargo inspection, ie: attacks Israeli soldiers, I would think that would be a direct declaration of war in the same respect. What right does Turkey have to decide that Israel has no right to enforce the blockade?

Edited to add:

Looks as if Iran has the same idea: Iran would be willing to send its Revolutionary Guard members to accompany further aid ships to Gaza, Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Sunday in an interview cited by Reuters.

"The naval wing of the Revolutionary Guard is ready to assist the peace flotilla to Gaza with all its effort and capabilities," Khamenei's Revolutionary Guard spokesman Ali Shirazi stated. link

Edited by American Woman
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Glenn Beck?

You could've linked to Deshowitz, but you chose that rodeo-clown to represent the hardline Israel supporter position?

This was the moron who claimed there was an anti-Israeli bias in American media and that no networks other than Fox were showing IDF video of the flotilla incident . . . Except they were (Great Daily Show Bit) . . .

The man is either completely disconnected from reality, a blatant propagandist, or an opportunist.

He is not someone you should be turning to for informed opinion.

:) I saw that. It wasn't even a misrepresentation: it was the literal and direct opposite of reality itself...and, of course, easily checked.

I don't think he was mistaken; I believe he was lying outright.

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Israel remains...undaunted

Of course, they've faced much worse, and will again I'm sure.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The Israeli navy killed four Palestinian militants in diver suits off the coast of Gaza before dawn Monday, the Israeli military and Palestinian officials said.

What were the militants trying to do?

Edited by Bonam
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According to the article the action prevented them from striking Israeli targets. Perhaps these were suicide bombers trying to circumvent the closed border?

In Monday's incident, a naval force spotted Palestinians in diving suits in the waters off Gaza and opened fire, the military said

NOTE TO SELF:

DONT GO SWIMMING IN GAZA.

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That's not a comparable question. One doesn't know where a suicide bombing will take place or where a rocket will hit. One cannot escape an unknown. One does know what the living conditions in Gaza are; that's not an unknown.

Yes, but according to Israel's most ardent defenders, one does know what the conditions are for Israelis: constant threat from an irredeemable enemy. If Israel is facing such an "existential threat to its survival" as the conventional piety has it; and if the threat is so great that Israel is justified in its controversial behaviour; ans justified even in the intentional killing of innocent people when they have targeted apartment buildings and so on...well, clearly (according to the standards laid out by Israel's staunchest defenders) life is dangerous and unsettled there, the future grim. So why wouldn't you say "they should just leave," as you do for the Palestinians? Hell, on the whole, it would be easier for Israelis to move.

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Well if you want to go back to the source, the decision to occupy Palestine following '67 was a pretty huge tactical error - it certainly hasn't made Israel any safer than throwing up a fence on the border and staying home

Was it, seeing how the main caostal hyway runs thru it, militarily it makes sense to deny this area to any future military build up well with Isreal.,not to mention it was in limbo just after the war...As for not making Isreal any safer, the Palestinians are not going any where any time soon, so regardless of what happened they will always remain a problem.

But the blockade is a failure because it's purpose isn't officially clear and there are no benchmarks to judge it's success. ie - if this is about stopping weapon smuggling, fine - but than why are you banning things like cumin, livestock feed, and dried fruit and nuts? Why were potatoes banned until this December? It gives the appearance this is more about punishing Gazan civilians than stopping weapon smuggling - which, btw - is happening regularly on the Egyptian border through the tunnel network.

According to Isrealis military reports 2 or more wpns shipments have already been siezed, because of the blockaid. as for the why other items are on the list i have no idea , it does certainly look like a collective punishment deal being dealt out to the palestinian people....just like the lobby opf rockets is over the border a collective punishment on the Isrealis people....And while illigal according to the Genva convention, really who cares, other than a few on these boards who really cares...is it a main topic at the UN which nations have taken up the fight in the UN to have it all stopped?

But while we are at it, why has Egypt not been mentioned in all this talk of border closures or restricted items...., i mean without Egypt consent and active role goods could simple be re routed thru Egypt and into Gaza....but as far as my research has shown both borders are closed...and yet no mention on those damn Egyptians.....and nobody is trying to bring in ships into thru Egyptian waters why is that...

And when does Israel claim that the blockade has worked? What measurement do they use? And when does it end? When Hamas leaves? What if they managed to retain power, despite a shift among citizens against them? Do you continue punishing people by strangling the economy and keeping over 80% of people dependent on food aid?

The strangling of the economy will stop when the rockets and violence stops...the Palestinians have control over thier own destiny....but lets face it nothing economical will even have a chance to start until the violence stops...it's a two way street..both Israel and palistine need to work together...

And the whole operation plays terribly for Israel internationally. It tarnishes the brand and makes Israel look like a brutal Imperial power that doesn't care about human rights. And in the past 10 years there's been a steady decline in favourable opinions of Israel in many polls - most significant, the amount of American Jews who have positive feelings towards Israel has dropped 10% since 1999, and has been dropping since the beginning of the intifada.

Regardless of how it pays out for Israel, they can not afford to loss one inch to her enemies, or she will be swept out to sea...the entire region is full of hate, and it is not going to change in this or the next generation if one side shows weakeness the others will try to capitalize on it....

This isn't uprising if you look at occupations throughout history - the ones that don't have a clear end date seriously damage the perpetrator. No matter the intentions of the occupier, the actual system of occupation slowly transforms them into a monstrous version of their former selves. Occupation forces states to do terrible things they might not otherwise do in an effort to keep a firm grip. And this moral corruption spreads throughout society, if left unchecked.

Like i said Israel has no chioce all the other nations in the region have washed thier hands of it, and the palestinians are not going any where....The Gaza strip is not occupied in the snese Israelis troops are running the show, It is only considered occupied because Israel controls thier air, wand water space and most of the over land borders...but how does the nation of Israel which prime responsiability is to defend it's own citizens deal with a small newly formed nation of Palistine with no control over its population thats main focus in life is to destroy the very nation it is dependant on for it's survival....

For the record, the IDF retracted their claim that IHH has Al-Qaeda links a day after they put out a press release with the claim.

While that may be true , french and Dutch anti terrorists units are still reporting the same thing. and all sides still maintain that the IHH has close ties in supporting Hamas via funding and Wpns, and other activities.

I think they had two motivations depending on what transpired - either get the aid to Gaza and break the blockade, or get stopped and turn the incident into a symbolic event about the injustice of the blockade. It seems like they were prepared for either outcome.

I see it as a perfectly planned operation which completed it's tasking and deserves a gold star...they knew exactly how the israelis would react, and when they did not all it took was a few very roudy radical muslims....

We agree on the rockets, but considering the US' hand in this conflict from day one, I think they and the British should pony up some peacekeepers - you could also get some Turks in there as well.

Not going to happen because when the first rocket flys who are both sides going to blame it on....thats right whom ever is running the blockade...as for turks not a good idea....But since they are so interested in doing the job and have agreed to escort an aid ship they have already picked up the ball..and entered the game...and while the Israelis navy is one of thier weakest arms, i would not want to test them over thier resolve to keep ships out of Gaza....I would not doubt that the US pres is making calls to all nations right now trying to head this thing off....

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Brekaing: Turkish PM to escort aid ship to Gaza guarded by the Navy

If Israel attacks, it’s a direct declaration of war over NATO. The best decision would be to gain some world support by allowing an international probe and signing NPT before things really get ugly. There is no need for world war 3.

Source: Google

Your actual news source for this is your ass.

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Yes, but according to Israel's most ardent defenders, one does know what the conditions are for Israelis: constant threat from an irredeemable enemy. If Israel is facing such an "existential threat to its survival" as the conventional piety has it; and if the threat is so great that Israel is justified in its controversial behaviour; ans justified even in the intentional killing of innocent people when they have targeted apartment buildings and so on...well, clearly (according to the standards laid out by Israel's staunchest defenders) life is dangerous and unsettled there, the future grim. So why wouldn't you say "they should just leave," as you do for the Palestinians? Hell, on the whole, it would be easier for Israelis to move.

So Israelis are supposed to just leave the great nation they've built and go elsewhere? Because the local muslims don't like Jews? And if someone doesn't like us do we pick up and move too?

Given the Palestinians have built NOTHING in their territory, it should actually be easy for them to move, especially since they are identical in language, religion, ethnic makeup and culture to the people of neighboring states. Egypt could absorb the people of the Gaza strip - or for that matter - the gaza strip - and not even notice it.

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Hello Argus, want to be my new dancer?

I pity you. My source for this news is my ass...let me think what you mean by that...use 'ass' to make a point.

a good tactic when you don’t have anything good to say is to say the link is ass...I am emphasizing the ass part if you didn’t notice. you want to start a ass war.

Dont use your ass or XXXXXX to compare posts.

I expect you to keep your level of professionalism and use proper language to make your point.

Your actual news source for this is your ass.

Edited by BCMan
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