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Israeli Navy Raids Gaza Aid Flotilla, 10 Confirmed Dead


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They have been in armed conflict since Hammas started shooting rockets into Isreal. That is why the blockade is in place and Isreal is entitled to enforce it.

By the same token Hamas didn't start shooting rockets into Israel until...

Call it a civil war. Same rules apply.

Not really because there never was one state that contained both sides.

So what? The example of loggers illustrates how peaceful protest works and what happens if peaceful protestors resort to violance. 5 ships were boarded with incident. Only one ship had the thugs that decided to start a fight. They are once who are responsible.

Yes, peaceful protest but what about armed conflict? Is it safe to assume you'd do and say nothing if the logging companies decided to run the protesters over with their trucks and bulldozers?

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5 ships were boarded with incident.

If you meant to say without incident, that is apparently false.

(At least one piece of the account from the Israeli Ministry of Defence is scarcely believable: in the other ships, where nobody apparently offer any resistance, there were also some wounded people, as this newspaper was able to verify by briefly talking to some of the passengers when they were being admitted on stretchers to a hospital in Ashkelon.)

[text 1]

Multiple reports communicate that several people from the other ships were also wounded.
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Only after they were attacked however. Up until that point they were peacefully steaming into Gaza.

Stop the lies. They weren't attacked. They were boarded in accordance with accepted procedures for a legitimate blockade. Boarding is not attacking. No violence ensued, no "attack" happened, until the insurgents aboard the ship began brutally stabbing and beating the innocent Israeli soldiers.

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A convient loophole...

It's not a loophole, it's called REALITY and it's happening in Afghanistan with Canadian taxpayer money right now, but you're not feigning indignation about that.

You might not be aware of this, but we don't live in a perfect world, and sometimes you have to make hard choices. Most fully-functional human beings would agree that sending aid to an area controlled by a thuggish regime or with lax rule of law is worth it if the vast majority of that aid gets to people who would otherwise die without it.

Frankly I'm willing to take it as an overhead if Hamas is going to tear bags of rice out of the hands of some families after they take them home from the UN distribution centre, so long as the VAST MAJORITY of the aid gets to the people who need it. I guess you disagree.

What's your solution? End all aid and let mass starvation take place? . . . And of course, in that case, both Israel and Egypt would be legally culpable in that case - and it might even meet the definition of genocide.

The you are okay with MPs adding legitimacy to pro terrorist demostrations?

You're trolling again.

I know you read my post and checked the links I gave you, I just disproved that those rallies were "pro terrorist demonstrations" by linking the cbc article on the demonstration itself - the only source you have that backs up your claim is the Israeli ambassador's accusations, who is obviously doing some political posturing and he wasn't even at the frickin protest anyways.

For the life of me I can't understand why you do this - play this pathetic misinformation game when you pretend that you didn't just read a whole argument I wrote backed up by links from reputable sites and then just repeat your initial accusation repeatedly - is the thinking that the facts I brought up aren't true until you admit they're true?

That would explain a lot if that's your line of thinking then - then the flotilla incident can't be a scandal until you acknowledge it's a scandal, because you're the gatekeeper of truth . . . No matter if Barak looses his job because of it.

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All your link says is Hamas gets some money from charities which could be located anywhere. Your link also says that most of the money Hamas still receives is from Syria and other Arab states hostile to Israel, that and cigarette taxes.

There's nothing about charities located in Canada, and even if there is some money raised here in Canada, I highly doubt it's a significant amount, otherwise I'm sure CSIS/RCMP would have been all over it a long time ago, especially considering Harper's position on Hamas.

So your earlier claim that lefties around the world are bankrolling Hamas $ billions is still rubbish.

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Just wait...the activists had cameras and they will be released soon...its all over Twitter.

The IDF seized all of the recordings the 40-odd journalists on board the Marmara made, and is now editing them and putting them up on their youtube website. They're not returning any of the footage to the journalists.

I mean really, you have to be off your meds to say that Israel doesn't enagage in blatant propaganda when you see this. Hell, you'd have a case to say that they don't respect press freedoms either.

Why is this so hard for some to swallow? This is the Middle East - no one does things cleanly there, not even Israel.

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You're trolling again.

I know you read my post and checked the links I gave you, I just disproved that those rallies were "pro terrorist demonstrations" by linking the cbc article on the demonstration itself - the only source you have that backs up your claim is the Israeli ambassador's accusations, who is obviously doing some political posturing and he wasn't even at the frickin protest anyways.

Linking an article that fails to mention the terrorist support does not disprove anything...and it was CTV, not CBC...

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=10524e16-36f2-4975-910d-9407471f2261&k=91928

Edited by M.Dancer
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Everyone involved in this post is involved in this football game including yourself...

Spell it out for me what significant mistake has isreal made, the blockade, the raid , what exactly ?

Well if you want to go back to the source, the decision to occupy Palestine following '67 was a pretty huge tactical error - it certainly hasn't made Israel any safer than throwing up a fence on the border and staying home.

But the blockade is a failure because it's purpose isn't officially clear and there are no benchmarks to judge it's success. ie - if this is about stopping weapon smuggling, fine - but than why are you banning things like cumin, livestock feed, and dried fruit and nuts? Why were potatoes banned until this December? It gives the appearance this is more about punishing Gazan civilians than stopping weapon smuggling - which, btw - is happening regularly on the Egyptian border through the tunnel network.

And when does Israel claim that the blockade has worked? What measurement do they use? And when does it end? When Hamas leaves? What if they managed to retain power, despite a shift among citizens against them? Do you continue punishing people by strangling the economy and keeping over 80% of people dependent on food aid?

And the whole operation plays terribly for Israel internationally. It tarnishes the brand and makes Israel look like a brutal Imperial power that doesn't care about human rights. And in the past 10 years there's been a steady decline in favourable opinions of Israel in many polls - most significant, the amount of American Jews who have positive feelings towards Israel has dropped 10% since 1999, and has been dropping since the beginning of the intifada.

This isn't uprising if you look at occupations throughout history - the ones that don't have a clear end date seriously damage the perpetrator. No matter the intentions of the occupier, the actual system of occupation slowly transforms them into a monstrous version of their former selves. Occupation forces states to do terrible things they might not otherwise do in an effort to keep a firm grip. And this moral corruption spreads throughout society, if left unchecked.

I just fail to see how the blockade as it's being conducted now, or this flotilla incident, does anything other than hurt Israel long-term.

I don't claim to be an expert, but i've seen some of these mishaps in person, and they are blown out of proportion by both sides.

No argument here, it's just said when some people (not yourself) take everything that comes out of the Israeli government as the gospel.

Lets just say there is no Al Quada conection, does that give the IHH a glowing record or are they involved in terrorist activities to include funding and arming groups such as HAMAS....and if they are what is thier motivation to this whole event, what are they getting out of it...dont tell me they are interested in getting supplies and goods into Gaza....

For the record, the IDF retracted their claim that IHH has Al-Qaeda links a day after they put out a press release with the claim.

Well, if they were, I'm pretty sure they'd be on an American blacklist by now. I personally haven't seen any evidence to suggest they're giving money to Hamas, unless you take the neo-con position that giving aid to Palestinian civilians is the same thing as giving money to Hamas.

I think they had two motivations depending on what transpired - either get the aid to Gaza and break the blockade, or get stopped and turn the incident into a symbolic event about the injustice of the blockade. It seems like they were prepared for either outcome.

Kind of head to do when you've been ordered to use non lethal force...hence the paint ball guns...but normally yes the ship the commandos where on would disable the ship if it refused to stop...by either shots across the bow, or just below the water line...

And it's not as if Israel hasn't boarded ships over the side before without incident.

I kinda wonder if Barak was hoping to deliver the Israeli public another dramatic operation a la the commando raid on the airport in Uganda in the 70's. If he was, he made a pretty bad gamble.

Bullshit...everyones answer is call the UN in, who's got troops for the UN everyone is tapped out...

here is a novel idea, lets stop lobbing rockets from gaza....stop the cycle of violence...

We agree on the rockets, but considering the US' hand in this conflict from day one, I think they and the British should pony up some peacekeepers - you could also get some Turks in there as well.

Everyone is tapped out right now, but I don't think the notion of UN peacekeepers running the Gaza border is going to be taken seriously for a while - plenty of time to draw down.

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I guess if they were really starving, they would accept the food, but refusing it better suits their propaganda.

So what you're saying is Hamas is a group of douchebags who would rather advance their own agenda than the lives of their own people?

Great.

You're about a decade or so late on that one.

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According to the Israelis.

We're never going to know what really happened.

The bottom line is that the Israeli account has no credibility as long as they are trying to cover up the event and keep evidence from getting out. No reasonable mind is going to believe someones account of an event when they are trying to suppress the evidence.

So at this point we are really just left guessing.

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So all that chanting 'Slaughter the Jews' back in Turkey/Cyprus was just for...the cameras?

Two can play at this idiotic game of yours . . .

Kach party supporters celebrate Flotilla Deaths in front of Turkish Embassy in Tel Aviv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdhKqGoMJms&feature=player_embedded

There, now all Israelis are officially bloodthirsty monsters, right?

Edited by JB Globe
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The bottom line is that the Israeli account has no credibility as long as they are trying to cover up the event and keep evidence from getting out. No reasonable mind is going to believe someones account of an event when they are trying to suppress the evidence.

So at this point we are really just left guessing.

Where as the militants who deny they were violent sdespite the video evidence are sooo trust worthy

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Two can play at this idiotic game of yours . . .

Kach party supporters celebrate Flotilla Deaths in front of Turkish Embassy in Tel Aviv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdhKqGoMJms&feature=player_embedded

There, now all Israelis are officially bloodthirsty monsters, right?

Now the arabs singing blood lust songs were on the ship....are you supposing the israelis were part of the boarding teams...?

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The Israelis are really getting unfairly blamed for this one:

They had a right to board those ships. They did everything they could humanly do to avoid violence. The blame for the deaths resets entirely with the protesters who sought a violent confrontation.

This is footage seized from the journalists on board the ship. Don't be naive and think that the IDF isn't selectively editing this stuff to the max. This IS the Middle East after all . . .

And again, for the record, the way Israel boarded this vessel goes against their OWN standard procedure, which has worked numerous times before WITHOUT INCIDENT.

I think the IDF certainly deserves some blame for the gung-ho recklessness of this incident - and the Israeli public seems to think so as well.

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Where as the militants who deny they were violent sdespite the video evidence are sooo trust worthy

Strawman. If I found them to be a credible source of information I wouldnt have said that were are "guessing at this point" would I? I would accept their account... but I havent and dont.

I dont trust either side to give an accurate accounting of what went on. Both of them are clearly trying to manage the public perception of this event and both sides have a rich history of lying through their teeth.

On the other hand... If Israel told you that there was a 100 dollar bill up the ass of each and every goat, you would immediate stock up on rubber gloves and head for the nearest goat farm.

Theres nothing they could tell you that you wouldnt believe.

Edited by dre
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Not if the blockade amounts to collective punishment, which is illegal.

The legality of what goes on over there is wholly and completely irrelevent. International law is selectively enforced, and enforced only when someone wants to step up and do it. Israel having a lackey on the UNSC with a veto virtually makes them completely exempt.

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Linking an article that fails to mention the terrorist support does not disprove anything...and it was CTV, not CBC...

Oh, it absolutely disproves something - it disproves your claim that this was a "terrorist rally" full of Hezbollah supporters and flags.

If the reporters who were there, didn't even mention in their reports that they saw a few flags, that means that there were little to none actually present - meaning, there were so few it was not newsorthy. If 15 000 people hold a rally about any given cause, and a dozen wave a flag of a certain organization - it's not indicative of the rest of the participants.

I mean you can't even find one report from anyone who was present at the rally to back up your claims.

The only things you've come up with so far is the accusations of the Israeli ambassador, and an editorial in the Post, not an article on the rally in the Post, but an editorial from an un-abashedly pro-Israeli editorial board.

Why don't you go find an actual article before you make up your mind about what actually happened?

Oh, and we'll forget that claim about Canadian charities donating money to Hamas, right?

Edited by JB Globe
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The bottom line is that the Israeli account has no credibility as long as they are trying to cover up the event and keep evidence from getting out. No reasonable mind is going to believe someones account of an event when they are trying to suppress the evidence.

So at this point we are really just left guessing.

Agreed.

What's pathetic is the hacks who are taking Israel's word as gospel, even though any Israeli will happily admit that their government practices misinformation as part of a propaganda war. To them, information is just another part of the battlefield in an epic war of survival, hence lies become justified in this conflict in their minds.

Even after the two initial justifications the deputy foreign minister made in the first press conference following the incident (that the organizers were linked to Al-Qaeda, and that the ships were carrying weapons) have been proven to be false and without any base, people are still jumping up and down to swallow whatever the Israeli government tells them is the current version of the truth.

I guess if you live in a completely polarized world filled only with good guys and bad guys - the notion that everyone involved in this conflict has dirty hands just doesn't fit into your narrative, and you'll go to great lengths to avoid dealing with that reality, even if it means being childishly naive.

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These are simple questions that are never directly answered by the apologists:

  1. If Israel did nothing wrong, both in the Gaza massacre and the attack on the humanitarian ships, then why doesn't Israel agree to an international investigation?
  2. If Israel is not occupying Gaza, then how do you explain the control of the borders, air and sea?
  3. If Israel follows international law, as according to themselves, then why do they dismiss experts like Richard Goldstone, Amnesty International and the Red Cross who have repeatedly concluded, from their investigations, that Israel has violated international law?

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These are simple questions that are never directly answered by the apologists:

  1. If Israel did nothing wrong, both in the Gaza massacre and the attack on the humanitarian ships, then why doesn't Israel agree to an international investigation?
  2. If Israel is not occupying Gaza, then how do you explain the control of the borders, air and sea?
  3. If Israel follows international law, as according to themselves, then why do they dismiss experts like Richard Goldstone, Amnesty International and the Red Cross who have repeatedly concluded, from their investigations, that Israel has violated international law?

These are easy...

1. The international investigation will be made up of jew hating terrorist supporters.

2. You just hide behind semantics. Blockade VS Occupation, etc. The important element is control.

3. Because all those experts are jew hating terrorist supporters.

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