bush_cheney2004 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 These humanitarian organizations investigate and report illegal activities by any organization. Even NATO. So neither you or Dancer have made any point. Look, I admire your persistance but in the larger scheme of things, the "war crimes" angle is very diluted by the reality of many other actions / conflicts. The point of focusing only on Israel to achieve a larger political objective is problematic, and very ineffective. Sword fights with Israeli buccaneers seems to get more attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 No matter...claims of "war crimes" are all the rage today...even NATO in Afghanistan commits "war crimes". So why are you singling out Israel, proving Dancer's point? 'Tis a pity..."war crimes" allegations just don't get the kind of political traction they used to. Blame YouTube! Because reporting the crimes of Hamas isn't sexy.. Which is why you haven't seen a thread about the documented crimes by Hamas against the people of Gaza... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naomiglover Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Look, I admire your persistance but in the larger scheme of things, the "war crimes" angle is very diluted by the reality of many other actions / conflicts. The point of focusing only on Israel to achieve a larger political objective is problematic, and very ineffective. Sword fights with Israeli buccaneers seems to get more attention. Of course they are diluted. This is why Israel continues to get away with what they're doing. It's obvious that the majority of people around the world, including many Jews are against Israel's crimes. If powerful lobby groups did not have a large influence on the Western politicians, it would be quite difficult for Israel to continue doing what they're doing. If we want to reduce conflicts, then we must severely reduce the hypocrisy by not supporting Israel. It's okay to condemn China for supporting North Korea, or condemn Russia for supporting Iran, but it's not okay to condemn the support for Israel? Rogue states such as N. Korea and Iran are being isolated. The same should be done with Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Of course they are diluted. This is why Israel continues to get away with what they're doing. It's obvious that the majority of people around the world, including many Jews are against Israel's crimes. If powerful lobby groups did not have a large influence on the Western politicians, it would be quite difficult for Israel to continue doing what they're doing. I still don't think you would get very far using the "war crimes" schtick. War crimes are for the "losers". If we want to reduce conflicts, then we must severely reduce the hypocrisy by not supporting Israel. I am not convinced of this...conflicts exist for many reasons sans Israel. Rogue states such as N. Korea and Iran are being isolated. The same should be done with Israel. Israel is "isolated"...that's why she bites so hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted June 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Because reporting the crimes of Hamas isn't sexy.. Which is why you haven't seen a thread about the documented crimes by Hamas against the people of Gaza... Actually, it's because no one here disputes the fact that Hamas commits war crimes. No one seems to have a problem when reports from human rights organizations detail Hamas violations, but when these same organizations apply the same methodology to Israel, then somehow according to Israeli apologists, they become flawed and motivated by "hatred" I mean really - why is it that Israelis seem to be more capable of being critical about this incident than you are? You won't even acknowledge that it's a scandal, which it blatantly is, given the political shitstorm within Israel. It seems like you're treating this conflict like it's some kind of geo-political football game, where all you do is root for your team and dismiss outright any suggestion that they're not the best team on earth. In that sense, you're in the same camp as Naomiglover - whom you seem to dislike quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Because reporting the crimes of Hamas isn't sexy.. Which is why you haven't seen a thread about the documented crimes by Hamas against the people of Gaza... I dont need to see documentation, I've heard enough. Hamas and to some extent the PLO have utterly failed the people in the occupied territories and have made life for people there worse not better, and dont care about the plight of people living there any more than Israel does. The west is complicate as well though... we pushed them to have elections, and now we act suprised that people living under a brutal military occupation dont elect doves? Thats fuckin retarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I mean really - why is it that Israelis seem to be more capable of being critical about this incident than you are? I would say my criticisms are the same as those in Israel....that they had good reason to expect violence, that the planners who expected peacefull resistence fataly erred and they should have been more aggressive from the start. In any case, the responsibility for the violence rest soley on those who used violence against commandoes armed with paintball guns.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naomiglover Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) Because reporting the crimes of Hamas isn't sexy.. Which is why you haven't seen a thread about the documented crimes by Hamas against the people of Gaza... The Goldstone thread title listed both Israel and Hamas for committing war crimes. Even though the crimes committed by Israel were many many more times more horrific and destructive. When faced with criticism of Israel, no matter who or which organization is doing it, your usual responses are: - It must be Jew hatred - Israel is above International law - No one is mentioning others who commit war crimes, so we should be silent about Israel You are a predictable apologist. Edited June 2, 2010 by naomiglover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Actually, it's because no one here disputes the fact that Hamas commits war crimes. No one seems to have a problem when reports from human rights organizations detail Hamas violations, but when these same organizations apply the same methodology to Israel, then somehow according to Israeli apologists, they become flawed and motivated by "hatred" I mean really - why is it that Israelis seem to be more capable of being critical about this incident than you are? You won't even acknowledge that it's a scandal, which it blatantly is, given the political shitstorm within Israel. It seems like you're treating this conflict like it's some kind of geo-political football game, where all you do is root for your team and dismiss outright any suggestion that they're not the best team on earth. In that sense, you're in the same camp as Naomiglover - whom you seem to dislike quite a bit. It seems like you're treating this conflict like it's some kind of geo-political football game, where all you do is root for your team and dismiss outright any suggestion that they're not the best team on earth. Bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 It does get rather samey, doesn't it Morris? Lemme see if I got the picture. Arab protest groups routinely fire rockets at random into Israeli residential areas. Suicide bombers blow up school kids and civilians every day. Let's slow down right here, can we? If these are really such routine events, you'll have no problem posting evidence confirming these incidents, say, for the last week, daily. Please oblige. And if not, I hope you'll eat these statements back as deliberately false pretext to justify inacceptable by civilized standards acts of Israeli military. Please don't keep us waiting )) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Actually, it's because no one here disputes the fact that Hamas commits war crimes. So when folks with far too much time on their hands have anti-Israel Apartheid Week in the universities, they are really against Hamas and Hezbollah and are merely disappointed with Israel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted June 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I've been reading and thinking more about the incident on the deck of the Marmara. I'll try and put it in context . . . - There was only violence on one out of the six ships. - There was only violence involving two dozen or more people out of the several hundred people on board the Marmara. What this means is the vast majority of people involved in the flotilla were entirely peaceful. And as much as some here would prefer to forget, there are rarely any kind of mass non-violent protests where some fringe elements didn't slip up and become violent when provoked. It happened in civil rights marches under MLK, and it happened in India with Ghandi. But we don't focus on the actions of the few in those cases, we focus on the actions of the many. And just like MLK and Ghandi - the organizers of this flotilla were seeking a confrontation - that's the whole point of non-violent protest. You force the state to make a decision between using brute force to keep you at bay, or standing down. If the law you're challenging is unjust, than no matter what the state choses to do - you win, because you either demonstrate the state's brutal commitment to injustice, OR you show that the state is not immune to the will of the people. Frankly the more time I have to digest this incident, the more I think that the flotilla organizers were justified in the course of action they took. Of course, it would have been a better scenario for all involved if the IDF just stood down - many commentators in Israel are saying that the damage done by letting the flotilla (and thus in their eyes, damaging Israeli naval deterence) in would have paled in comparison to the current situation. And that way of course the aid would have actually gotten to Gaza. However, it's not the fault of the organizers that Israel chose to maintain their illegal blockade against their own best interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 What this means is the vast majority of people involved in the flotilla were entirely peaceful. In recognition of this, the vast majority weren't shot for attacking IDF soldiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Globe Posted June 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 So when folks with far too much time on their hands have anti-Israel Apartheid Week in the universities, they are really against Hamas and Hezbollah and are merely disappointed with Israel? No, that's because Hamas and Hezbollah aren't affected by global public opinion - it doesn't matter if everyone in Canada hates them or like them, it doesn't change the situation for them locally. It's like protesting North Korea - they just don't care, so why waste your time organizing protests? To make you personally happy? Also - people don't expect the same things out of terrorist groups and militias as they do from nations that build themselves up with taglines such as "a beacon of democracy and freedom in a sea of dictatorships" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 No, that's because Hamas and Hezbollah aren't affected by global public opinion - it doesn't matter if everyone in Canada hates them or like them, it doesn't change the situation for them locally. It's like protesting North Korea - they just don't care, so why waste your time organizing protests? To make you personally happy? Also - people don't expect the same things out of terrorist groups and militias as they do from nations that build themselves up with taglines such as "a beacon of democracy and freedom in a sea of dictatorships" Nice apology for them. Keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Nice apology for them. Keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) No Dancer, if it was really so easy, why deny independent international investigation? And, where do we go from here? Israel is officially recognised and approved by its staunch democratic friends law onto itself, responsible to nobody or for anything? How do we go then about calling to responsibility other countries and societies? Wouldn't it look, quack and smell like cheap, empty and pathetic verbal bs? Edited June 2, 2010 by myata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I dont need to see documentation, I've heard enough. Hamas and to some extent the PLO have utterly failed the people in the occupied territories and have made life for people there worse not better, and dont care about the plight of people living there any more than Israel does. That's really the historical bottom line...after more than 50 years, you'd think the political leadership could advance beyond the single notion of destroying Israel while starving to death. The west is complicate as well though... we pushed them to have elections, and now we act suprised that people living under a brutal military occupation dont elect doves? Thats fuckin retarded. Maybe, but it's progress compared to what they had before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 No, that's because Hamas and Hezbollah aren't affected by global public opinion - That of course is nonsense....if most people knew them for the murderous thugs they are.....would they still receive as much funding from well intentioned idiots....would their misinformation be received sop eagerly....would Liberal MPs march under a hezbollah flag? ....would they be as emboldened and enabled as they are currently knowing they have the fasning support of the left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Honestly, what did you think would happen once they decided to run the blockade? Israel stands aside and says... ??? The people that decided to put this stupid 'humanitarian' convoy together are to blame. Putting your hand in the mouth of a paranoid barking dog is not wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 That's really the historical bottom line...after more than 50 years, you'd think the political leadership could advance beyond the single notion of destroying Israel while starving to death. Seeing half of the world, speaking half of the truth, again and always? Perhaps Isreal has moved many "notions" from approprating more and more of the land it occupies? Maybe, but it's progress compared to what they had before. As defined by ...? You mean you have the authority to tell other people what is "progress" for them? Just like conkistadors, of old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 America and Israel are controlled by organized crime. What else could it be? As the British elite are destoying the gulf coast...Israel is destroy what is left of Americas good reputation. Like I said the only good thing about ultimate power is the fact that they ultimately turn on each other- there is no honour amoung theives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) This is Jenin all over again, another propaganda bonus for Hamas. http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=2339 More documentation of flotilla planning violence against Israel by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik A day before the confrontation with Israel a university lecturer revealed on Hamas TV that the Gaza flotilla's commander had announced that the participants were planning to use "resistance," the Palestinian euphemism for violence, against "the Zionists." He added that the participants sought to die as Martyrs, even more than they wanted to reach Gaza. The following are the words of Dr. Abd Al-Fatah Shayyeq Naaman, lecturer in Shari'ah law at a university in Yemen, now visiting Gaza: "The [Gaza] flotilla commander said yesterday: 'We will not allow the Zionists to get near us and we will use resistance against them.' How will they wage resistance? They will resist with their fingernails. They are people who seek Martyrdom for Allah, as much as they want to reach Gaza, but the first [Martyrdom] is more desirable." [Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), May 30, 2010] Edited June 2, 2010 by scriblett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 That of course is nonsense....if most people knew them for the murderous thugs they are.....would they still receive as much funding from well intentioned idiots....would their misinformation be received sop eagerly....would Liberal MPs march under a hezbollah flag? ....would they be as emboldened and enabled as they are currently knowing they have the fasning support of the left? Of course they would still recieve funding. The funding is based on the needs of people in the occupied territory not the reputation of Hamas. And what enables and emboldens them is the 40+ year long military occupation... a boon for militant organizations in the region. But again... none of this matters... Chance of a resolution to the conflict = ZERO. Both sides will oppose it. Chance of two state solution = ZERO. Israel wont give up control of water in the west bank, and the palestinians wont compromise on East J Thats pretty much the end of it. The ONLY way a resolution will ever happen there is if UNSC decides to get serious about forcing both sides to comply with the law. Its utterly unthinkable that those morons would make peace with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 Chance of two state solution = ZERO. Israel wont give up control of water in the west bank, and the palestinians wont compromise on East J Given that the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan included a water sharing formulae, the blanket statement that Israel will not negotiate a water settlement is without merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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