Haiti shame

[DogOnPorch]

IME, the people who complain about those who go to Third World countries to help the poor are self-interested: they do this because it makes them feel better, they feel richer and they can claim a higher moral plane. They don't help anyone other than themselves.

Oh please. What he is refering to is the effect seen when an oil spill happens and celebrities are there to 'scrub wildlife'...and look good on camera. Disasters DO attract similar people. They're not all like you...

Edited January 17, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[BubberMiley]

Like me? I've never done a good thing in my life.

But no, he's not talking about celebrities. He's talking about people who, unlike me, feel motivated to help people in need.

[DogOnPorch]

Like me? I've never done a good thing in my life.

But no, he's not talking about celebrities. He's talking about people who, unlike me, feel motivated to help people in need.

How unusual.

[Smallc]

Again...

...getting better by what standards?

By many different standards. There was clean water, economic development, improving infrastructure, and shrinking corruption. There was a police force being built. The international community was helping to keep order. There were many small marked improvements.

[DogOnPorch]

By many different standards. There was clean water, economic development, improving infrastructure, and shrinking corruption. There was a police force being built. The international community was helping to keep order. There were many small marked improvements.

That amount to a hill of beans it seems. If you have Google Earth installed...take a really good look at Haiti. It's a cess pit. Haiti USED to be a very rich thriving French colony.

[BubberMiley]

How unusual.

I agree. The only motivation for it is a feeling of guilt on his part. Otherwise, I can't imagine why someone would stand on the sidelines and criticize people for wanting to help those in need.

[DogOnPorch]

I agree. The only motivation for it is a feeling of guilt on his part. Otherwise, I can't imagine why someone would stand on the sidelines and criticize people for wanting to help those in need.

Not everybody is conditioned to immediately feel guilt.

[Sir Bandelot]

By many different standards. There was clean water, economic development, improving infrastructure, and shrinking corruption. There was a police force being built. The international community was helping to keep order. There were many small marked improvements.

What smallc is trying to say is, they went from "double-plus-ungood total flea hole", to merely "total flea hole", in a space of about 30 years.

"The international community was helping to keep order." Yes they were, by ousting the democratically elected leader and putting one in that serv es our interests first and foremost. Let alone the economic disaster which was set up by taking our governments advice in the first place. They should have stayed as a quiet agro based society, so they could at least grow their own food and not depend on us so much. Now look, there's no bread.

Smallc: "Let them eat cake"

[Smallc]

I'm not sure what some think we should have done. It seems that some believe that we did too much, and others believe that we did too little. We were spending a great deal of time and money there (both as individuals and as a country).

Yes, things were still bad, but that doesn't mean that we weren't making a difference. People here seem to be willing to cast aside the sacrifices of so many. I'm not willing to do that. I've heard from both the Prime Minister and the Governor General that things were getting better. I've seen the reports on Canadian projects to bring order, infrastructure, and clean water to the people. I can't believe that none of that was making a difference.

It appears that this will be our primary focus after afghanistan. Perhaps we can make an even bigger difference this time.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Smallc

[BubberMiley]

Not everybody is conditioned to immediately feel guilt.

I'm certainly not conditioned to feel guilt. That's why I feel so comfortable doing nothing. But would you agree that everyone else should be like me and do nothing because any help only hurts the people more?

[Argus]

"The current situation in Haiti, for which the Canadian government bears much responsibility, is characterized by political assasinations and imprisonments, the murder of peaceful protesters by police, the destruction of limited social programs and health care, and the repression of democratic activity.

The evidence shows that at every turn, Canada has declined every opportunity to uphold democracy in Haiti, while taking the lead in overthrowing the country's democratically elected government and legitimating a power grab by Haiti's wealthy elite.

You're very quick to say "the evidence shows" without showing any evidence.

The 2004 Haiti rebellion was a coup d'etat that happened after conflicts that occurred for several weeks in Haiti during February 2004. It resulted in the premature end of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide's second term, in which he left Haiti on a United States plane accompanied by U.S. military/security personnel.

Even if true, they were the ones who put him in the first place. There are a lot of conflicting reports about Aristide. But it does not appear he was exactly a champion of human rights, honesty and democracy. More like a champion of grabbing any penny he could get and turning the place into a narco state while neclacing anyone who didn't agree.

Thats why Haiti descended into the craphole it became,/quote]

Haiti was a craphole long before Aristide became president and there's no sign he made any improvements.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

I'm certainly not conditioned to feel guilt. That's why I feel so comfortable doing nothing. But would you agree that everyone else should be like me and do nothing because any help only hurts the people more?

Hey...I'm self employed and debt free. Pull yourself up, dude. I think more can take a lesson from that. Want something? Go out and earn it. You'll take better care of it for one...

So they can pour in the money...but kiss it good-bye.

[ToadBrother]

Really? Who are you to say that? Haiti was becoming a better place by pretty much all accounts.

eyeball isn't terribly interested in reality. He has this monochromatic view of the world.

[Moonlight Graham]

But do they in fact help the other person?

Overall, yes. There are many instances in some places where development work over the decades in the global south has done more harm than good. However, overall we in the West have improved the quality of life for those in the global south since development became an official project of the U.N. and many contributing countries post-WWII following Europe's decolonization of the global south.

Some statistics, according to the United Nations Development Programme:

1960 to 1987: Life expectancy in the global South increased by a third

1970 to 1985: literacy rates up from 43% to 60% in the global South

1965 to 1980: Per capita income increased on average 3% per annum

1960 to 1988: Under 5 mortality rate reduced by 50%

There are still many horrible problems facing most of the world's population, but the situation is significantly better than it was. Damn those dogooders!

Edited January 18, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[GostHacked]

As I watched the horrible sites on Haiti, I wondered how well our governments, both, provincial and federal were, if something like a earth quake happen say, in Toronto, which is on a fault line. Do you think our governments are ready for a disaster as a quake in a big city?

Talked about in another thread. Building codes in Canada are much better, so we stand a better chance of reduced damage due to the quake. But then again, Toronto can't handle snow very well .

And yes I think our country is better prepared and equipped for disaster relief. We have DART teams standing by waiting for the word to head to Haiti. Turn that around, Haiti does not seem to have organized teams for relief effort. They could not help us out as we can help them.

IME, the people who complain about those who go to Third World countries to help the poor are self-interested: they do this because it makes them feel better, they feel richer and they can claim a higher moral plane. They don't help anyone other than themselves.

Yeah, screw the poor and needy. You might be right about that when it comes to all these actors and actresses running the red carpet and raising money for Haiti. Those are the self interested people if anyone is.

I'm certainly not conditioned to feel guilt. That's why I feel so comfortable doing nothing. But would you agree that everyone else should be like me and do nothing because any help only hurts the people more?

Indifference is sure conditioned in you, and most people these days. That is why bums and transients get ignored and pushed to the back alley. No one cares and no one notices.

The thing people should come away with after helping is the satisfaction of doing something right, and for your fellow man when you have not been asked to help. Selfless people will go both feet in to help.

[Shady]

Indifference is sure conditioned in you, and most people these days. That is why bums and transients get ignored and pushed to the back alley. No one cares and no one notices.

I disagree. People care and notice. But it's very difficult to help people in that situation who don't first want to help themselves.

[Sir Bandelot]

Twenty-five sailors from HMCS Athabaskan, the Canadian destroyer which arrived earlier Tuesday, arrived this afternoon on the shore of Leogane, located west of Haiti's hard-hit capital, Port-au-Prince.

The desolate community was about 90 per cent destroyed by the earthquake.

"We need water and medicine," local resident Sam Moly told The Canadian Press. "We got nothing (from international community). Everything we do, we do for ourselves."

Canadian sailors land in Haitian fishing village

Thats a straight cut and paste there, no editing by me. Anyone else smell a rotten fish under the docks?

Meawhile Elsewhere:

The military component of the US mission, however, tends to overshadow the civilian functions of rescuing a desperate and impoverished population. The overall humanitarian operation is not being led by civilian governmental agencies such as FEMA or USAID, but by the Pentagon.

The dominant decision making role has been entrusted to US Southern Command (SOUTHCOM).

A massive deployment of military hardware and personnel is contemplated. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen has confirmed that the US will be sending nine to ten thousand troops to Haiti, including 2000 marines. (American Forces Press Service, January 14, 2010)

The Militarization of Emergency Aid to Haiti

-------------------

You may think Globalresearch is off the wall on this, but the mainstream media is telling the same story. Here is a portion from an article on Yahoo news, with all the other information removed just the parts about aid delivery problems and military dominance of the airport.

The U.N. food agency reached an agreement Monday with the U.S.-run airport in the Haitian capital to give aid flights priority in landing — a deal that came after the U.S. military was criticized for giving top billing to military and rescue aircraft.

The United States has taken over the Port-au-Prince airspace and incoming flights have to register with the Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida.

Over the weekend, the aid group Doctors Without Borders complained of skewed priorities and a supply bottleneck at the airport amid reports that U.S. military flights were getting priority. French, Brazilian and other officials complained about the airport's refusal to let their aid planes land, forcing many flights to end up in the neighboring Dominican Republic, a day's drive away.

On Monday, French Cooperation Minister Alain Joyandet urged the United Nations to investigate the dominant U.S. role in the relief operation, claiming that international aid efforts were supposed to be about helping Haiti, not "occupying" it.

Haitians have complained that food, medicine and water have been woefully slow in reaching them.

Still, Italian civil protection chief Guido Bertolaso said there was little coordination in the relief effort and the international community needs "strong leadership" to channel aid where it is most needed.

"We are still lacking someone who will give orders and tell each country what it must do," he said in Brussels while attending an emergency EU meeting on Haiti.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100118/ap_on_re_eu/haiti_aid

What is going on here? Staging ground for Mr. chavez

Edited January 19, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[bush_cheney2004]

....What is going on here? Staging ground for Mr. chavez

No...that would come from Columbia, Panama, and Puerto Rico.

Where were you when Canadian Forces secured Haiti's airport in 2004 to help topple Aristide?

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[BubberMiley]

But it's very difficult to help people in that situation who don't first want to help themselves.

That's a good one. I like to use excuses for my apathy too. It makes me feel better about myself.

[capricorn]

Twenty-five sailors from HMCS Athabaskan, the Canadian destroyer which arrived earlier Tuesday, arrived this afternoon on the shore of Leogane, located west of Haiti's hard-hit capital, Port-au-Prince.

The desolate community was about 90 per cent destroyed by the earthquake.

"We need water and medicine," local resident Sam Moly told The Canadian Press. "We got nothing (from international community). Everything we do, we do for ourselves."

Canadian sailors land in Haitian fishing village

Thats a straight cut and paste there, no editing by me. Anyone else smell a rotten fish under the docks?

I read some Haitians outside the capital say the provinces in Haiti have not seen signs of international aid, and as your link shows, they're left to fend for themselves.

"Most everything coming into this country right now stays in Port-au-Prince," he said. "I don't think we'll see any of it."

===

"Even in good times, they don't care about the provinces," he said. "They're not going to care now."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/18/AR2010011803833.html

It's true that the population of Haiti is concentrated in Port au Prince and surroundings (reports say 2M) making it easier to aid more Haitians in a shorter time frame. But it's also a fact that same metro area is where the international media is concentrated. Hmmm. It seems purveyors of aid are starting to pay more attention to outlying areas. The media is sure to follow, providing an endless stream of more heart wrenching images.

You may think Globalresearch is off the wall on this, but the mainstream media is telling the same story. Here is a portion from an article on Yahoo news, with all the other information removed just the parts about aid delivery problems and military dominance of the airport.

What is going on here?

An interesting dynamic is developing. Many media reports say that Haitians are looking to Obama to help them out of this crisis.

Haitians are looking to Barack Obama as their potential savior, saying the first black U.S. president is their best hope for building a new country from the rubble of their earthquake-shattered homeland.

In the chaos and misery of the Haitian capital, much of which was left in ruins by the quake, stunned survivors glued to local radio have taken solace and inspiration in Obama's pledge to throw himself personally into helping Haiti.

"Mr. Obama has said he will help save us. I'm praying to Jesus for that," said Steeve Grange, an 18-year-old high school student, squatting with scores of people to recharge mobile telephones off power lines from a radio station's generator.

"Haitians are very proud of Mr. Obama," Grange added.

Many in this impoverished Caribbean nation see Obama as a superstar and kindred spirit of Haiti, where rebel slaves overthrew French colonial rule to claim independence in 1804 as the world's first black-ruled independent republic.

"The fact that Obama is the first black U.S. president and that Haiti is the first black republic could compel him to be more attentive to Haiti's needs," said Patrick Moussignac, head of Radio Television Caraibes, Haiti's largest broadcast group which has provided free power for people to recharge their cellphones.

"Just as people believe that Obama cares about Haiti, Haitians care about Obama too," added Moussignac.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE60I4A720100119

On one hand, Haitians clearly want and expect Obama to come to their country's immediate aid and on the other, the US is being criticized by France and some followers on the extent of its involvement. Well, uh, I'm with the Haitians full stop.

If ever there was a classic case of damned if you do, damned if you don’t – otherwise known as “America is always wrong” – this is it. The US is now making a superhuman, phenomenally generous effort not only to provide aid but to restore some sort of interim governance to Haiti – a failed state in which there is now effectively no infrastructure at all. One of the first priorities must be to contain the violence that is threatening to undermine systematic provision of aid and fair distribution of the most basic necessities of life: this requires a policing operation for which someone must take authority. The American military may be assuming this responsibility without what the French regard as due sensitivity to their own moral and historical precedence in the region, but in matters of life and death I should imagine that European colonial sensibilities are not coming top of the list of anybody’s considerations.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/janetdaley/100022727/america-is-always-wrong-part-85-us-is-accused-of-occupying-haiti/

I echo that sentiment.

[Sir Bandelot]

Also at the hockey game the other night, there was people walking around in orange vests, carrying cardboard boxes collecting for Haiti. You just drop your pocket change in here. And club zellers points, was asked if I wanted to donate them today. I said "yes", becuase it was the politically correct thing to do. Then I asked her if that means the people in Haiti can use it when they shop at zellers. She just laughed

[Sir Bandelot]

I echo that sentiment.

Well its kind of like Katrina, I mean if you claim your going to conduct a rescue operation , do it. You either do it, or you don't and get the hell out the way...

Plus, its about the ripoff. Are we helping Haitians or funding military ops.

Seems to me like its now become the same thing.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[bush_cheney2004]

....Plus, its about the ripoff. Are we helping Haitians or funding military ops.

Seems to me like its now become the same thing.

It always was the same thing....which "non-military" organizations have the logistical and security capabilities needed?

[capricorn]

It always was the same thing....which "non-military" organizations have the logistical and security capabilities needed?

I think Haitians figured this out a long time ago.

[Army Guy]

I think some people need to gear down, you just don't launch an opertion of serveral thousand troops expect to hit the shores and shoot rations and fresh water out your ass, saving the day....it all takes planning and prepartion, infra structure, equipent, and troops...every thing that haiti has little to none of....

Assigning blame, pionting to the military....thier to blame...give me a break...you nor the media have a clue to what it takes to get stores , supplies, troops, equipment from one airport to another, 1 plane arrives every 2 minutes of the day....think about that...people civilian and military...on the same flights...equipment needed to process clean water, to do construction,thosands of problems all being solved at the same time...