Haiti Earthquake

[GostHacked]

Even if Haiti had the toughest building codes on the planet, they're the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, so even stringent enforcement (if it were possible) would end you up with, well, no buildings. Building to strict codes means being able to pay engineers and architects, effective inspections and trained construction managers willing to support them. It means, most importantly, being able to afford to use materials necessary to build earthquake proof structures. Some of the reports I heard last night on CBC radio heavily suggest that many buildings were built using unreinforced or inadequately reinforced concrete. Multistory buildings were literally pancaking as vertical supports gave way.

Pay a lot now, or pay a lot more later. Unfortunately this comes with a huge human cost. Sure this does not happen all the time, and earthquakes causing this much destruction is rare, but the loss of life would be more than enough justification to have that in place before. I understand the cost factor and how poor Haiti is as a nation and paying back debts from almost a century of loans does not help them advance at all. It's quite sad.

We can only hope that future structures in Haiti will be built with this earthquake in mind.

[Oleg Bach]

My younger sister was in charge of building an entertainment facitiy in Los Angeles. She's not an educated woman but a very energetic and quick study. I asked here what the difference was in creating foundations that would withstand quakes--- I can safely say that the added material would bring the cost up a hundred fold - In Haiti to build a proper building would be like building 100 inadequate structures - who is going to invest in a place strickly on the basis of pure charity without any profitable return? The world does not work that way. It would be nice if we were a civilized and kind species but for the most part we are not. THAT is why Haiti has remained such a dump for decades now..people don't care - It's the same attitude that people have about the rich and powerful..they do them favours - thinking there will be some trickle down effect to them.

Or another example..a person will water the plant that is full grown rather than the scrawny one that seems to have no potential and does not catch the eye. It's like that song I hate..."God bless the child that's got his own" - But in the alternative ...personally - I take a great pleasure and it is a challenge to bring forth a plant that is withered - but again I am not like most people.

[capricorn]

We can only hope that future structures in Haiti will be built with this earthquake in mind.

Not to mention added protection from the ravages of hurricanes which have targeted Haiti, as recently as 2008.

[Guest American Woman]

We can only hope that future structures in Haiti will be built with this earthquake in mind.

According to this article: ...even though much of the infrastructure was built by American companies, it was allowed to rot through a combination of corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude. Corruption has been a serious problem in Haiti for decades and will probably be a roadblock to any rebuilding efforts, experts say.

So it's evidently not just a matter of having the structures built to code; it's more involved than that.

[wyly]

According to this article: ...even though much of the infrastructure was built by American companies, it was allowed to rot through a combination of corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude. Corruption has been a serious problem in Haiti for decades and will probably be a roadblock to any rebuilding efforts, experts say.

So it's evidently not just a matter of having the structures built to code; it's more involved than that.

it's a third world country and corruption as much as it is repulsive to us is normal procedure there, it's how they cope with the poverty...in many countries wages are so low police routinely take pay offs to overlook offences, it's often the only way they can support themselves and family...

it's not an easy thing to completely overhaul an entire society...

[naomiglover]

My heart goes out to them. It is so tragic. I don't remember ever seeing any good news from Haiti.

Donations

Americans: text "HAITI" to 90999 to donate $10 to Red Cross relief efforts

Canadians: https://www.paypaq.com/redcross/new/

[Guest American Woman]

it's not an easy thing to completely overhaul an entire society...

Which makes one wonder if any 'long term' relief efforts are possible in that respect.

Edited January 14, 2010 by American Woman

[August1991]

I appreciate this thread....

It takes a disaster in the third world to bring Canadians together.

According to this article: ...even though much of the infrastructure was built by American companies, it was allowed to rot through a combination of corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude. Corruption has been a serious problem in Haiti for decades and will probably be a roadblock to any rebuilding efforts, experts say.

So it's evidently not just a matter of having the structures built to code; it's more involved than that.

Uh, do you mean that Americans are to blame?

And you know, I've seen a lot of footage from there the last twenty four hours, and it's pretty consistent in its shots of demolished buildings, and crowds of people walking around doing - nothing. There's no one to organize searches, and few of the locals seem to have taken it upon themselves to try and dig people out on their own, or organize their neighbors to do so.

They're all waiting for outsiders to come in and organize things. Which, again, says nothing good about the local leadership.

I think this is the telling point. Despite all the efforst of do-gooders over the past 50 years or so (and these efforts have been huge), Haiti remains the poorest country in the Americas and as poor as many countries in Africa.

The border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic is visible from satellite photos because of land use.

It is noteworthy that there was no damage in the DR from this earthquake. In fact, 7.0 is not "high" on the richter scale. The Sichuan earthquake of 2008 measured 7.9, or a force about twice the Haitian quake. The Sichuan and Haitian quakes are comparable. The Haitian quake was closer to the surface; the Sichuan quake was stronger but its epicentre was further from a population centre.

I think that the point here is that if the Sichuan earthquake had occurred 30 years ago, fatalities would have been higher than the 70,000 recorded in 2008.

Why is Haiti so poor and why does it remain so poor? I don't know but I am fairly certain that all the dogooders and third world aid given to Haiti have not made any difference, and probably have made things worse.

----

Lastly, there is an international industry now in disaster assistance. It is largely financed by western governments. The people (usually westrners) involved in the industry get an adrenalin rush from travelling to the disaster zone.

----

In case anyone is interested, here is a seismic graph of the earthquake. It lasted 40 seconds.

This map shows that damage was focussed on Haiti, and not the DR.

Edited January 15, 2010 by August1991

[capricorn]

US President Barack Obama and French President Nicolas Sarkozy, along "with Brazil, Canada, and other countries directly concerned," will organise an international conference on Haiti's reconstruction, the French presidency says.

Sarkozy would hold talks over the coming hours with President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva of Brazil and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, the Elysee statement added.

The decision was taken during a phone call between Obama and Sarkozy on Thursday evening, it said.

The Elysee, the French president's office, said Obama had called his French counterpart to discuss the "situation in Haiti and efforts by the US and France to help victims of the earthquake."

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/sarkozy-obama-plan-haiti-conference-20100115-mayx.html

The more countries involved the better. This conference better get off the ground soon or the momentum could be lost.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Lastly, there is an international industry now in disaster assistance. It is largely financed by western governments. The people (usually westrners) involved in the industry get an adrenalin rush from travelling to the disaster zone.

For sure...this time around it is China raising the flag first on Haiti, as if they went to the Moon. American religious groups and NGOs have been supporting missions to Haiti for years as a very close and permanent humanitarian disaster to practice on.

[capricorn]

For sure...this time around it is China raising the flag first on Haiti, as if they went to the Moon.

Any chance China had air traffic controller friends at Haiti's airport? First to get the all clear to land.

[bush_cheney2004]

Any chance China had air traffic controller friends at Haiti's airport? First to get the all clear to land.

Not sure what you mean...it is common practice to set up forward controllers...no tower or radar required, just a good radio. It is a standard MOS.

China's 60 person term got in early today based on this China Daily report:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-01/14/content_9322317.htm

Edited January 15, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[capricorn]

Not sure what you mean...

A joke bc.

But let's backtrack a sec. You said China was the first to plant a flag. But it's a US plane that first landed following the earthquake.

The first aid to arrive was a US military assessment team, followed just before dawn by an Air China plane carrying a search-and-rescue team, medics and tons of food and medicine and three French planes with aid and a mobile hospital.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/6987858/Haiti-earthquake-Aid-blockages-into-stricken-country.html

What am I missing here?

[bush_cheney2004]

But let's backtrack a sec. You said China was the first to plant a flag. But it's a US plane that first landed following the earthquake.

Right, but China wants to realize the PR bonus for having the first team on the ground to dispense aid in any capacity.

We all know that this kind of jockeying happens in the background. The US does it...so does Canada (e.g. Katrina aid).

[capricorn]

Right, but China wants to realize the PR bonus for having the first team on the ground to dispense aid in any capacity.

I would think besting the US would be on China's agenda.

[bush_cheney2004]

I would think besting the US would be on China's agenda.

Besting the US early is on all agendas.

[Smallc]

Concerns have been raise over why the HMCS Preserver did not sail to Haiti. It isn't currently deployed, so there are only two possibilities: It was thought to be too slow, or it was out of order......the second is probably more realistic given the fact that the ship is about to start an extensive $50M refit.

[Smallc]

Thinking about it, there is an alternative possibility. Canadian navy ships currently (generally) use fixed crews. If the Preserver was not one of the ships on standby, it would be very difficult to round up the entire crew from across Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

Thinking about it, there is an alternative possibility. Canadian navy ships currently (generally) use fixed crews. If the Preserver was not one of the ships on standby, it would be very difficult to round up the entire crew from across Canada.

I think you were right the first time....a naval vessel prepping for an extensive shipyard availability or overhaul is the exact opposite of military readiness as a deployable asset, including all of the supporting logistics and workups. Sometimes subsystems and spares in short supply are "cannibalized" for active, deployable units.

Edited January 15, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Smallc]

Yes, that happens often. The Preserver wasn't supposed to be out until march.

[wyly]

Oh there are probably some sort of building codes, but no one pays attention to that sort of thing in corrupt, failed cultures like that of Haiti. The place has been a hole for generations and is unlikely to improve any time soon. Political incompetence, corruption, and disorganization go hand in hand with criminal and drug gangs and a culture of violence and ignorance to make a very unpallatable mix.

And you know, I've seen a lot of footage from there the last twenty four hours, and it's pretty consistent in its shots of demolished buildings, and crowds of people walking around doing - nothing. There's no one to organize searches, and few of the locals seem to have taken it upon themselves to try and dig people out on their own, or organize their neighbors to do so.

They're all waiting for outsiders to come in and organize things. Which, again, says nothing good about the local leadership.

that's unrealistic expectations, the city is destroyed, the government is destroyed...no electricity, no communication systems, no transportation systems, searching for food, searching for water, searching missing for missing family members, searching for medical help, these people are in no position to organize anything...this is a country that had nothing and now has even less if that's possible...any canadian city hit with a disaster of this magnitude wouldn't do any better...

Edited January 15, 2010 by wyly

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman, on 14 January 2010 - 04:34 PM, said: According to this article: ...even though much of the infrastructure was built by American companies, it was allowed to rot through a combination of corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude. Corruption has been a serious problem in Haiti for decades and will probably be a roadblock to any rebuilding efforts, experts say.

So it's evidently not just a matter of having the structures built to code; it's more involved than that.

Uh, do you mean that Americans are to blame?

Uh, no, I mean evidently "corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude" in Haiti are to blame, at least in part, as "much of the infrastructure was allowed to rot."

[BubberMiley]

I am fairly certain that all the dogooders and third world aid given to Haiti have not made any difference, and probably have made things worse.

I can understand your sense of guilt for doing nothing, but responding to that with contempt for those who are trying to help is, well, typical of you.

[Rue]

I can understand your sense of guilt for doing nothing, but responding to that with contempt for those who are trying to help is, well, typical of you.

I would agree with you. Suggesting helping people in time of need has made their situation worse is simply a negative assumption.

Years ago I was in Haiti as a child when my mother volunteered there as a doctor. In those days Papa Doc Duvaliers ran the country. He had a police force the Tons Tons Macoups ( I probably spelled that wrong ) who drove around in pick up trucks in blue shirts. If a citizen looked at them in the eyes, they would arrest them. They all wore sun glasses even in the night.

What I know of Haiti is that all the trees were cut down causing widespread erosion. Once the trees were gone the soil blew away and so today Haiti has no soil-its all blown away and they bring in crushed sea shells to try stabilize the ground.

When you have an earthquake on sandy soil obviously everything will crumble. Add to that the poverty and fact everything is built with cheap cement and zero safety codes and it spells disaster.

80% of Haitians can't read and make less than $2 bucks per day and some estimate there is a ratio of about 2 doctors per 100,000 people.

The Duvaliers robbed the country blind placing hundreds of millions some say billions of stolen money into Swiss bank accounts. The US and the West propped up Duvaliers for years knowing he was a corupt sob.

When he died and his dim witted son took over they soon chased his fat boy son to Switzerland.

Haiti is a strange place. There is a tiny elite group of light skinned black people who had all the wealth.Your beauty and success was based on how pale you were.

All the money was condensed in less than .5 percent of the population and found in a closed community in Port Au Prince.

Religion in the country was a strange mix of Catholicism and Animism (voodoo).

Because of the shortage of doctors, spiritual voodoo healers had huge importance.

When I was there people talked of people being possessed because curses were put on them. Some of the explanations for the behaviour I saw was more mundane-rabies, epilepsy, brain tumours, polio, tuberculosis, dysentary, malaria, dengue fever, intestinal or brain parasites, malnutrition, mental illness, infections spreading from rotting teeth through the spine and up into the brain, etc.

Fresh water has always been an issue. There was also no shortage of Christian missionaries coming to "save the savages" and setting up schools but perpetuating this wierd racist phenomena.

The image of Haitians is of savages with machetes. They have gangs of young men yes. However given the fact they are a fourth world country comparing them to Canadian society is pointless.

There was at the best of times poor roads, little electricity, no hospitals, schools, infrastructure with any foreign aid being intercepted by corupt politicians.

In the horror of this latest tragedy one positive thing will happen. It took down the corupt government-in effect Haiti has no government now. The people might stand a chance now.

The Americans will have no choice but to become the police force on the ground for now.

The first problem after reestablishing a secured road network is building a make shift port and expanding the airport.

Then comes the disposal of hundreds of thousands of bodies which by now are bursting open and full of maggots and will be spreading bacteria into the air and soil.

Another problem will be getting water and food to survivors many of whom by now will be suffering from organ failure.

The third problem will be housing. Huge tent communities will have to go up but the question is where?

Fourthly, after bodies are removed, then the huge problem of moving the rubble off roads and off the ground to rebuild comes about.

There will be violence soon. How wide spread no one knows but it is human nature for starving and desperate people to loot if they see food or other goods coming in and so establishing a ground security presence is essential.

The Americans should coordinate the ground security. Certainly not the reminents of the Haiti government which was corupt.

Quebec has over 100,000 Haitiens. They will want Canada to have an open door policy to allow them to take in their relatives. That is bound to cause racial friction in Quebec which already has seen race friction between Haitiens and the "purelaines".

The U.S. and Canada both face a real political issue. Both countries have large Haitiens communities that will want their families taken in to their respective new countries as well as many other catastrophe escaping refugees but the fact is neither the U.S. or Canada wants to get stuck with hundreds of thousands of impoverished, uneducated people.

We will see the usual liberal guilt displays in the next few months and I predict all the celebrities will get in on the concerts and marathons and speak in hushed tones.

But 6 months from now, a year from now, 3 years from now, you won't hear a peep as we move on to the next trendy event. That is when Haiti will need the help the most and when the reality of refugee politics kicks in and Canada and the US will be faced with trying to contain huge influxes of catastrophe refugees without coming across as being mean.

The bottom line is, when people see such disasters there is a genuine sympathetic reaction followed later by the keep those poo people on their own island reactions.

[Michael Hardner]

Why is Haiti so poor and why does it remain so poor? I don't know but I am fairly certain that all the dogooders and third world aid given to Haiti have not made any difference, and probably have made things worse.

I missed that comment. No difference as in zero ? I heard a woman on CBC who had taught in a school down there. Would you tell her to her face that she made no difference ?