Haiti Earthquake

[eyeball]

Yes, the immediate needs of suffering Haitians are the priorities and the international community is answering the call as best it can in the face of logistical roadblocks. But through it all it's impossible to ignore the political situation bubbling just below the surface.

Even Stephen Harper is saying that this time we have to finish what we've started. He also said that everything Canada invested in Haiti before this earthquake has been wiped out

The nature and number of the collapsed buildings in Port Au Prince are reminiscent of the results of the last big earthquake in China. Collapsed buildings seem to be an accurate measure of a countries political dysfunction and fragility.

Its all about foundations, starting with what's "bubbling" beneath them. There is simply no point in trying to build a bunch of shit on top of a pile of crap. If we really expect to finish what we started we have to dig down deep enough to find a really solid footing.

[capricorn]

Even Stephen Harper is saying that this time we have to finish what we've started. He also said that everything Canada invested in Haiti before this earthquake has been wiped out

Maybe material investments have been erased. Yet, I think our country's goodwill survived it all.

Its all about foundations, starting with what's "bubbling" beneath them. There is simply no point in trying to build a bunch of shit on top of a pile of crap. If we really expect to finish what we started we have to dig down deep enough to find a really solid footing.

If by solid footing you mean stable government, doesn't your suggestion amount to foreign intervention in the affairs of a sovereign state? I thought you were against that.

[Argus]

Its all about foundations, starting with what's "bubbling" beneath them. There is simply no point in trying to build a bunch of shit on top of a pile of crap. If we really expect to finish what we started we have to dig down deep enough to find a really solid footing.

Just how do you think we can go about that?

We could build everyone on that island a milliion dollar condo and if we were to return in ten years we'd find most of them rotting, burned out, crumbling, and falling apart. Haitians can't or won't maintain anything we build.

[ToadBrother]

Just how do you think we can go about that?

We could build everyone on that island a milliion dollar condo and if we were to return in ten years we'd find most of them rotting, burned out, crumbling, and falling apart. Haitians can't or won't maintain anything we build.

The problem is that the underlying economy is completely broken. Haiti certainly needs immediate assistance, but building a functional economy, well, that's a whole different task.

[eyeball]

Maybe material investments have been erased. Yet, I think our country's goodwill survived it all.

If by solid footing you mean stable government, doesn't your suggestion amount to foreign intervention in the affairs of a sovereign state? I thought you were against that.

I'm against big powerful countries diddling with small weak countries, if you can't tell the difference its probably because you don't want to.

[eyeball]

Just how do you think we can go about that?

Like I said before, Haitians deserve an apology for all the shit and abuse that foreign countries have heaped on the place and people who live there. These people need to know that the crippled state of their culture is simply not their fault.

We could build everyone on that island a milliion dollar condo and if we were to return in ten years we'd find most of them rotting, burned out, crumbling, and falling apart. Haitians can't or won't maintain anything we build.

You're probably right.

[eyeball]

The problem is that the underlying economy is completely broken. Haiti certainly needs immediate assistance, but building a functional economy, well, that's a whole different task.

The real problem is that their state has failed. I think this might stem from the fact that Haiti was the very first black republic in the world to declare independence. This must have deeply rattled the colonial powers at the time and unleashed all sorts of Machiavellian responses, and the consequences of these are still felt to this day.

That's the nature of abuse.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm against big powerful countries diddling with small weak countries, if you can't tell the difference its probably because you don't want to.

Then why do you continue to live, work, and pay taxes in a big, powerful country that does such things? Your actions do not match your words.

[ToadBrother]

The real problem is that their state has failed. I think this might stem from the fact that Haiti was the very first black republic in the world to declare independence. This must have deeply rattled the colonial powers at the time and unleashed all sorts of Machiavellian responses, and the consequences of these are still felt to this day.

That's the nature of abuse.

I think I see your biggest flaw. You like simple answers. In fact you insist that simple answers, whether they represent reality or not, must be true. You're a one-dimensional thinker.

There are many reasons Haiti went down the tubes. Some of it certainly is outside intervention. Some of it was domestic issues. Very poor countries tend to make unsuccessful democracies. Without a middle class, you have a small aristocratic group and a very large group that ends up being indentured in one way or another. Abuse of power, or more properly the vast gulf between the powerful and the rest of the society, is inevitable. Democracy requires more than just constitutions and institutions, it requires certain checks within the society itself.

Edited January 18, 2010 by ToadBrother

[eyeball]

Then why do you continue to live, work, and pay taxes in a big, powerful country that does such things?

Because I hope I'll live to see the day when Canadians have better control over our big powerful government's actions in the world.

Your actions do not match your words.

They just don't match your notions of patriotism is all.

In any case if I could build a spaceship and leave this miserable little planet I'd out of here faster than you could count backwards from 10.

Speaking of actions matching words, I suspect if someone like you could do this you'd be stuffing your ship full of slaves first before blasting off to some New World. OTOH perhaps you'd just diddle the locals around.

Edited January 18, 2010 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

Because I hope I'll live to see the day when Canadians have better control over our big powerful government's actions in the world.

But until then, the status quo is fine, right?

They just don't match your notions of patriotism is all.

No, it matches my notion of "hypocrisy" and "cognitive dissonance".

In any case if I could build a spaceship and leave this miserable little planet I'd out of here faster than you could count backwards from 10.

Instead, you get in your "spaceship" and help to destroy fisheries while bemoaning same?

Speaking of actions matching words, I suspect if someone like you could do this you'd be stuffing your ship full of slaves first before blasting off to some New World. OTOH perhaps you'd just diddle the locals around.

But I don't want to blast off in a make believe spaceship. My words match my actions and belief system.

[eyeball]

But until then, the status quo is fine, right?

No, that's not what I said.

No, it matches my notion of "hypocrisy" and "cognitive dissonance".

So what? Everything does that to you.

Instead, you get in your "spaceship" and help to destroy fisheries while bemoaning same?

Get a grip.

But I don't want to blast off in a make believe spaceship. My words match my actions and belief system.

If you say so.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, that's not what I said.

Yes it is....you said you hoped to live long enough to see change. Will you be in a state of suspended animation....you know...like in your spaceship? If not, then you will live with and support the status quo.

Get a grip.

How many endangered species did you kill yesterday, today, and tomorrow?

If you say so.

I did say so.

Edited January 18, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

Yes it is....you said you hoped to live long enough to see change....If not, then you will live with and support the status quo.

Now show me where I said I'd be fine with it.

How many endangered species did you kill yesterday, today, and tomorrow?

Oh I get it, you think someone who kills fish for a living while bemoaning the loss of diversity is a hypocrite.

Is that what your belief system tells you or do you have something real to base it on?

Edited to add; Perhaps we should take this to another thread.

Edited January 18, 2010 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

Now show me where I said I'd be fine with it.

You have already told us about smiling on candid cameras....so whe will you storm government offices in Victoria with your AK-47?

Oh I get it, you think someone who kills fish for a living while bemoaning the loss of diversity is a hypocrite.

Something like that...it does strain your credibility just a tad!

Is that what your belief system tells you or do you have something real to base it on?

For purposes of this forum game, your posts will suffice.

Edited to add; Perhaps we should take this to another thread.

No, I think we're done....the point has been made. The rest is your business.

[eyeball]

You have already told us about smiling on candid cameras....so whe will you storm government offices in Victoria with your AK-47?

Something like that...it does strain your credibility just a tad!

For purposes of this forum game, your posts will suffice.

No, I think we're done....the point has been made.

What point, that cameras don't make one's claims or actions credible or did you mean accountable?

The rest is your business.

It's funny you should put it that way. As a purveyor of my posts you'll recall that it was fishermen who decided to employ camera surveillance and electronic monitoring so we could account for our actions in the face of public demands for better accountability.

You can get back to me once your precious and exceptional State likewise volunteers to account for it's actions in as credible and accountable a manner. That said, we should really be done now...knowing you though pigs will likely fly first.

[Army Guy]

Even Stephen Harper is saying that this time we have to finish what we've started. He also said that everything Canada invested in Haiti before this earthquake has been wiped out

The nature and number of the collapsed buildings in Port Au Prince are reminiscent of the results of the last big earthquake in China. Collapsed buildings seem to be an accurate measure of a countries political dysfunction and fragility.

Its all about foundations, starting with what's "bubbling" beneath them. There is simply no point in trying to build a bunch of shit on top of a pile of crap. If we really expect to finish what we started we have to dig down deep enough to find a really solid footing.

I think ALL Canadians need to sit down and think about this mission, they need to come to the conclusion that it is going to take alot of effort,funding and even more time to make a dent in assisting Haiti over coming this problem...If they don't then we are wasting our time, funding and effort...this needs to be a long term commitment that most Canadians do not have the fortitude to see though...This time we do need to see things though...

[bush_cheney2004]

Today's usual media torrent did have one nugget for the human spirit....look at this kid's gesture after being pulled from the rubble....priceless:

[DogOnPorch]

That's quite wonderful. Good find.

[Oleg Bach]

Gee, kind of sounds like Canadian native reserves then.

That's a pretty accurate assessment. Haiti should never have been allowed to get into the shape it achieved. Some say that the earth quake is the tragic event that led to further misery. I would say that the tragic event took place decades ago when someone some where took it upon themselves to slowly and incrimentally destroy the remaining inhabitants.

NOW they say that there is no fuel to transport even water to those in dire need - well who in the world controls fuel supplies - talk to them and you will find out who originally screwed this place into a state of near hell. They think that they are so clever with genocide. That if it is done slowly like a dagger being pushed into the side of a person - milimeter by milimeter over a period of time that it does not show as a stabbing - but it is.