Oleg Bach Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Oh really! Then what the hell do you call HELL! Most Christians interpret the verses of everlasting fire as meaning that those who reject salvation are burned for eternity....but basic christian teaching doesn't support torture, you say.10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. God does not amuse himself by burning and torturing people - it is people that burn and torment people.....God does not destroy the body and the life force that sustains the body ...people do that to other people...with intent or indirectly collectively ...stop blaming the creator for what his creations do - we have free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderateamericain Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 first of all, i appreciate your honesty. i'm happy to see that you're not here trying to change the meaning of torture.i do have a question for you though; how can one call him or herself a christian or a muslim or a jew when their beliefs or actions go against the fundamental doctrine of the religion? Because being a christian is not adhering to a label, The difference between you and I is that you think Christianity is something that can be taken away from someone. The reality is that you can only give away your own Christianity. Being a christian or a muslim is not about being righteous all the time, its about believing in god and trying to live a life of example. Unfortunetly, we do live among other people, and when those people get out of line with us or are families we sometimes have to put aside that life of example and do things we don't wanna do. Like kill another man in defense of your home and family. I justify it to myself in the hope that my kids will never have to do it. If god punishes me for doing what I thought was right while im here on earth then so be it. We all pay the piper at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Christianity is God given intelligence..you don't need to carry a weapon or "kill a person while defending your home and family" - to para phrase. You should use your God given mind to avoid killing at all cost....and as for Christian Americans who are gun dependent..well - a bit faithless I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 their laws are not based on the person's religious background. Actually ethnic background...just like the UK, Japan...etc etc....secular, atheist, non practicing Jews are allowed to immigrate.... Why? Because Israel is not a religeous state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 when those people get out of line with us or are families we sometimes have to put aside that life of example and do things we don't wanna do. Like kill another man in defense of your home and family. I justify it to myself in the hope that my kids will never have to do it. If god punishes me for doing what I thought was right while im here on earth then so be it. We all pay the piper at some point. Well your christ taught turning the other cheek, guess thats too idealistic to be adhered to in reality. But even so the point is about acceptance of the use of torture, not killing someone in self defense. So let us now ask, who would Jesus torture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Well your christ taught turning the other cheek, guess thats too idealistic to be adhered to in reality. But even so the point is about acceptance of the use of torture, not killing someone in self defense.So let us now ask, who would Jesus torture? Christ never taught you to take system repeated abuse (turn the other cheek) ...people don't get this concept - If you smacked a man with the back of your right hand..it was violent and hateful contempt for that person you hit..IF the person getting hit - rapidly turned the other cheek after the first strike...the assailant would be forced in an instance to come up with the right hand and strike you with the flat of the hand - (to gently slap with the flat of the hand was a show of love and friendship) this turning of the other cheek was almost humorous and was meant to sweetly trick the hater into loving you...Christians are not supposed to be martrys or accept abuse as if it were saintly - this is a political manipulation of the religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 So let us now ask, who would Jesus torture? The answer to that question is Hellish..... And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power they're tormented in the lake of fire and brimstone day and night forever and ever So Did Jesus, Son of God as a co-creator, create Hell? If the answer is yes then Jesus was just alright with torture as a means of punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Ok, as long as we're clear on that idea then. Christians do condone torture as part of their religion. The direct evidence comes from the church itself, see inquisition etc. Well seems that they and muslim extremists are really not that different, at a fundamental level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Ok, as long as we're clear on that idea then. Christians do condone torture as part of their religion. The direct evidence comes from the church itself, see inquisition etc.Well seems that they and muslim extremists are really not that different, at a fundamental level. See you at the witch burning later? I hear there's beer. Maybe 500 years ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 dupe: DoP, announced to the world that he is an "existential atheist" (lol - he sure loves the whole grouping thing) and i asked him, then why he supports the creation of a religious state. he tried avoiding the blatantly obvious, which is, "Israel is a Jewish State = Israel is a religious state" by giving the answer: "but israel is a parliamentary democracy" like being a so-called democracy and being a jewish state are mutually exclusive.this is when i reminded him that israel is a jewish state that gives privilege to those who are jewish. a simple fact that cannot be denied. his ambiguous response does not change the fact that israel has different citizenship rules based on the religion you follow. Existential: Life has no particular special meaning. Atheist: There is no flying spaghetti monster. Parlimentary Democracy: All folks get out and vote. Secular and non-secular. Religious State: Saudi Arabia...whose activities escape you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 (edited) The answer to that question is Hellish.....So Did Jesus, Son of God as a co-creator, create Hell? If the answer is yes then Jesus was just alright with torture as a means of punishment. On point of fact, Jesus wasn't torturing in this instance. The situation in which Jesus used torture was when he drove the money changers out of the temple, using a whip. Although personally, I am not sure it fits the definition of torture. But since playing loud music, or putting a caterpillar into a prisoner's cell(actuall case) who is scared of bugs are both considered torture now under the Obamster's rule, I'm pretty sure Obama considers it torture to hit people with whips. So of course the Obamites will follow his lead like lemmings. BTW how is it that yet another thread on a completely different topic meanders into yet another thread on Jews? Edited May 6, 2009 by sharkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 BTW how is it that yet another thread on a completely different topic meanders into yet another thread on Jews? dub at first tried to pigeon-hole me as a "Zionist Jew ". Then, as a "creepy rapture loving Christian". I'm neither. That's where it started...lol. Surprised? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 dancing man: not surprised to see you avoid another question. it has become a pattern. Actually ethnic background...just like the UK, Japan...etc etc....secular, atheist, non practicing Jews are allowed to immigrate....Why? Because Israel is not a religeous state. you're wrong on your comparison. you receive special privileges if you convert from another religion to judaism. this means that it is a question of religious background. you can't convert ethnicity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 dub man: not surprised to see you start another thread ragging on Jews. it has become a pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 The answer to that question is Hellish.....So Did Jesus, Son of God as a co-creator, create Hell? If the answer is yes then Jesus was just alright with torture as a means of punishment. lol what nonsense. you and your arguments. so we're playing god by creating hell on earth to torture people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 .... But since playing loud music, or putting a caterpillar into a prisoner's cell(actuall case) who is scared of bugs are both considered torture now under the Obamster's rule, I'm pretty sure Obama considers it torture to hit people with whips. So of course the Obamites will follow his lead like lemmings. LOL! If that be the measure of torture for Obamites, then he best be informed that routine hazing in the US military training pipelines, not to mention survival training, includes far worse than that. Hell, I guess I was even tortured as a child.....corporal punishment by public authorities in the way of a thick wooden paddle with holes drilled in it to increase the bat speed on the way to my ass! BTW how is it that yet another thread on a completely different topic meanders into yet another thread on Jews? Forgive them, for they know not what they do ( and really can't resist Jew baiting at any turn). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 (edited) dub at first tried to pigeon-hole me as a "Zionist Jew ". Then, as a "creepy rapture loving Christian". I'm neither. That's where it started...lol. Surprised? an existential atheist would not support the creation of a religious state. a state that gives special rights to those who follow a particular religion. i suggest you look for another group to label yourself under. Edited May 6, 2009 by dub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 a state that gives special rights to those who follow a particular religion. Which rights are those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 LOL! If that be the measure of torture for Obamites, then he best be informed that routine hazing in the US military training pipelines, not to mention survival training, includes far worse than that. how about we go with the measure that the U.S. punishes others? japanese soldiers were prosecuted and punished by the U.S. for using water boarding as a method of torture. Hell, I guess I was even tortured as a child..... did your papa water board you? did he zap your balls with electricity? did he tie your hands behind your back and make you sit on your knees for hours, while blasting horrible music? this could explain why you're like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Which rights are those? we went over this already. if you are jewish or you convert to judaism, you receive special israeli citizenship rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 (edited) an existential atheist would not support the creation of a religious state. a state that gives special rights to those who follow a particular religion. Israel, again, is a parlimentary democracy where, if I were an Israeli, could vote no matter what my religion was. Just like Canada. In Saudi Arabia, women can't drive let alone vote. But, since it doesn't involve the Jooooooooooooooos...you don't care. Edited May 6, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 we went over this already. if you are jewish or you convert to judaism, you receive special israeli citizenship rights. How are they special? I mean, whaty is special about those rights that non jewish israelis don't have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 we went over this already. if you are jewish or you convert to judaism, you receive special israeli citizenship rights. What rights are those, again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted May 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Israel, again, is a parlimentary democracy where, if I was an Israeli, could vote no matter what my religion was. Just like Canada. In Saudi Arabia, women can't drive let alone vote. But, since it doesn't involve the Jooooooooooooooos...you don't care. if you're a joooooooooooooooooooo or you convert to the religion of the jooooooooooooooos, you receive special citizenship rights over those who are not jooooooooooooooos. you disagree with this fact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 if you're a joooooooooooooooooooo or you convert to the religion of the jooooooooooooooos, you receive special citizenship rights over those who are not jooooooooooooooos.you disagree with this fact? What special rights are those, again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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