bush_cheney2004 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 .....and boy did they sure turn a profit on the security industry not to mention removing most of Americas civil and human rights. Not my rights 'Bro...I still have more than any Canadian. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 Not my rights 'Bro...I still have more than any Canadian. Got me on that one big brother! Having tested the waters in Canada as far as rights....well - what can I say...I saw very few - no correction - if you are a compliant little citizen you may feel you have rights - but feeling is not the same as being - If you resist and are not compliant to the general agenda and policies - you have no real rights..You only get the rights that they want to give you - and if your own human,civil and economic rights are demanded - you get none...Try to explain this to the average middle class Canadian I passed on my way over here sitting in the bistros sipping wine and having that hundred dollar meal - they have lots of rights - because they are compliant. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Posted March 8, 2009 What they did as Germanic anglo saxon stock was horrific - and I am sure that the dream of National socialism was passed down intergenerationally... War is buisness - toss out the ideology that is dispersed for public consumption - Afghansitan is no different - some one is drinking blood and sustaining wealth at our expense. It seems to me that Stalin did some killing too, maybe up to 20 million. Who did it for him, the Germans? How many european civilians were killed, by all parties, all around? Single out the Germans is just a scapegoat. We know that these wars introduced modern wrfare on a whole new scale, not just in mechanization but in the mandatory draft and "total warfare", complete anihilation. Yes, its a war on ideology. That is in fact what makes modern wars so cruel, compared to wars for teritory as the old style wars were often about. Complete destruction was not desireable, not necessary but when it comes down to wanting to change someones ideology... Quote
Oleg Bach Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 It seems to me that Stalin did some killing too, maybe up to 20 million. Who did it for him, the Germans? How many european civilians were killed, by all parties, all around? Single out the Germans is just a scapegoat. We know that these wars introduced modern wrfare on a whole new scale, not just in mechanization but in the mandatory draft and "total warfare", complete anihilation.Yes, its a war on ideology. That is in fact what makes modern wars so cruel, compared to wars for teritory as the old style wars were often about. Complete destruction was not desireable, not necessary but when it comes down to wanting to change someones ideology... Stalin removed most of my mothers family via starvation - so he is no hero to me- and yes he holocausted millions of Slavonics. Germans as a race and culture are cold as are their pure bred British cousins... I just don't like the fact that some German officer put a gun to my mother at 15 years of age and raped her...but - she had her revenge - once the Americans bombed Berlin - the gates of the prison camp were breached and she found herself a pistol - she went though town knocking on the doors of the wives of German men demanding clothing - she shot a few out of spite. Truely I have no use for the way Germany - or the barbaric Americans conducted them selves - dear old dad had to take a lead pipe to a few drunken yanks wanting booze and sex...they assumed my parents were German because they were blonde....as for Britain and that weak and trusting Chamberlain - well - history speaks for it self.... Because the Germans tortured raped and left my parents full of pock marks caused by bullets...but dear old dad as a double agent - removed a few of them during the occupation of Paris - one thing I know - after listening to my father and his friends - there were no good guys and there are still no good guys when it comes to letting loose human blood for profit or ideololgy...In the end Afghanistan will be a waste of our finest young men and some jerks will profit somewhere . Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) ......In the end Afghanistan will be a waste of our finest young men and some jerks will profit somewhere . In the end it is all a waste of our finest and not so finest, regardless of the noble cause. Dying for Europeans (twice) was a lot dumber in retrospect, but it worked. Edited March 8, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 In the end it is all a waste of our finest and not so finest, regardless of the noble cause. Dying for Europeans (twice) was a lot dumber in retrospect. It was less dumb because we were at least putting up a fight for what was once family - Afghanistan are very distant relatives - although when pops grew his big mustache - he did look a little Talibanish come to think of it. He looked like a lot of different things. As far as war - well it maybe part of old human nature. My mother loved a good fight..it was part of her being - but she also knew how to be fair and wage peace. To be a great peace maker you have to have two qualities - the total varosity of spirit and body to wage war with a relentless vengenge.....And the second quality to know when enough is enough - and to instill peace...That's why I found the old hippy peacenicks pitiful, they could scream peace but had no will or skill to enforce it if neccesary - We do not have leaders anymore capable of having these dynamics - they are either rabid dogs or weak and cowardly...To have peace as an individual or as a nation - you must carry yourself with threatening authority - if not the preditors approach and size you up...America just does not know how to create peace - if they did they would have put the Israelis in check years ago. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) It was less dumb because we were at least putting up a fight for what was once family - Afghanistan are very distant relatives - Sorry dude, mustn't parse soldiers lives like that. The truth is that some people whine less about the sacrifice in victory compared to defeat. If we used the same calculus for WW2 compared to Afghanistan it was very stupid indeed, and WW1 was just plain retarded. To have peace as an individual or as a nation - you must carry yourself with threatening authority - if not the preditors approach and size you up...America just does not know how to create peace - if they did they would have put the Israelis in check years ago. Right....if you want peace...prepare for war. Edited March 8, 2009 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 A good example is when America came under attack (911) they should have shown strenght..first as a "Christian" nation they should have publically forgiven the attackers ( that would have screwed them up) - Then instead of projecting power abroad like little boys they should have taken all of their military and physcially sealed the boarders instantly - Then they should have let the world know immediately - "If we even get an incling of who really did this - we will drop a small nuclear device on your head" and meant it...Instead the corporates tore off like dogs chasing a stick that the terrorist tossed. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 A good example is when America came under attack (911) they should have shown strenght..first as a "Christian" nation they should have publically forgiven the attackers ( that would have screwed them up) - Then instead of projecting power abroad like little boys they should have taken all of their military and physcially sealed the boarders instantly - Then they should have let the world know immediately - "If we even get an incling of who really did this - we will drop a small nuclear device on your head" and meant it...Instead the corporates tore off like dogs chasing a stick that the terrorist tossed. But that's not what happened.....the US simply asked for Bin Laden and gang to be shipped off for trial and for the Al Qaeda training bases to be destroyed. The Taliban balked.....so bombs away baby! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 But that's not what happened.....the US simply asked for Bin Laden and gang to be shipped off for trial and for the Al Qaeda training bases to be destroyed. The Taliban balked.....so bombs away baby! Why would these sizzy's sitting in real nice padded leather chairs actually think that they were respected in the world? I could see it now - cigar in hand - Hey Mr. Saudi - send us your favourite rebel son so we can hang him...and those camps - they gotta go'' Jeezzzz - okay...sorry about that.....They should never have attempted to negotiate with terrorists and that is just what they did..which is ironic that the battle cry became "we do not negotiate with terrorists" - The well connected oil guys might as well have sent the message - your boy Binny Laden broke a window - could you spank him for us...The Saudis and the oil administration were just to well connected to be effective...it would have been on of those weird things if they stood up and barked like men - a conflict of interest. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 ...The Saudis and the oil administration were just to well connected to be effective...it would have been on of those weird things if they stood up and barked like men - a conflict of interest. Maybe......but the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan were not mandatory. Saddam could have resigned...the Saudis begged him to do just that. It's not really so complicated. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Oleg Bach Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 Why would these sizzy's sitting in real nice padded leather chairs actually think that they were respected in the world? I could see it now - cigar in hand - Hey Mr. Saudi - send us your favourite rebel son so we can hang him...and those camps - they gotta go'' Jeezzzz - okay...sorry about that.....They should never have attempted to negotiate with terrorists and that is just what they did..which is ironic that the battle cry became "we do not negotiate with terrorists" - The well connected oil guys might as well have sent the message - your boy Binny Laden broke a window - could you spank him for us...The Saudis and the oil administration were just to well connected to be effective...it would have been on of those weird things if they stood up and barked like men - a conflict of interest. I will put it plainly - you do not go after the trigger man..you go after the man that bought the gun and financed the excursion...America could not face the fact that Saudi Arabia payed for the attack - that truth was just to much to bear - their whole world would have come tumbling down - so they let ours tumble down instead..this did not end well. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) "So you think leaving the Taleban in control was an option?" Karzai cheers possible reaching out to Taliban Afghan leader speaks after Obama raises possibility of reconciliation Timely article as these are the current discussions- Sun., March. 8, 2009 KABUL - President Hamid Karzai on Sunday welcomed President Barack Obama's call to identify moderate elements of the Taliban and encourage them to reconcile with the Afghan government. Obama's call "was good news because this has been the stand of the Afghan government," Karzai told a gymnasium full of Afghan women during a speech to commemorate International Women's Day. --- Talk about irony, he's standing in front of a room full of women talking about how he will allow the Taliban to participate in government. Isn't this the group that wants sharia law, and prevent girls from getting any education or being allowed out in public? They go around beating people in the streets for minor infractions. So we were told But I want all my army buddies to know, you know? This is whats now going down! The fat baby-faced leader of our country also doesn't have a problem with it. He's a good boy does what he's told! Give it ten years to come around full circle, it'll be as if it never happened. Except for the grave markers of our young people who died of course. A buncha suckers are we Edited March 8, 2009 by Sir Bandelot Quote
Oleg Bach Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 The Taliban will be incontrol after we leave anyway - each nation including ours has the controling mafia family tribe - and if we can have ours then they should be able to have theirs.. As for the bleeding heart liberals that are so damned concerend about the poor civilians - let them put their money where their mouths are - and let them sponsor Afghani families that do not want to live under the Taliban - and bring them ALL here - then the Taliban will have no one to intimidate or dominate - besides the Afghanis are a beautiful race and to mix up their genetics with some anglo breeders might make for better and less weak anglos.. If you are not willing to cough up the money to support the average Afghani personally - then shut up. Quote
ironstone Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 The question perhaps should be,can the West contain the Taliban instead of defeating them once and for all.They have long had a stronghold in Pakistan and the Pakistani government is openly showing their weakness in allowing Sharia law to be imposed by the Taliban where they are strong.Almost certainly this will continue to spread in the Muslim world if nobody is willing to stand against it.The Taliban are every bit as brutal(although on a smaller scale...for now)as the Nazis or Communists were in their time. The appeaseniks must be squirming right now since the most popular politician in the world wants to dramatically increase the number of troops in Afghanistan. Quote "Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." Thomas Sowell
eyeball Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) The question perhaps should be,can the West contain the Taliban instead of defeating them once and for all.They have long had a stronghold in Pakistan and the Pakistani government is openly showing their weakness in allowing Sharia law to be imposed by the Taliban where they are strong.Almost certainly this will continue to spread in the Muslim world if nobody is willing to stand against it.The Taliban are every bit as brutal(although on a smaller scale...for now)as the Nazis or Communists were in their time.The appeaseniks must be squirming right now since the most popular politician in the world wants to dramatically increase the number of troops in Afghanistan. Appeaseniks... The only thing the west needs to contain is its propensity for constantly interfering in the rest of the world's affairs. Let the Muslims stand against Sharia themselves, I can't think of anything that will cripple their world faster than the spread of ignorance and superstition. That said I can't think of anything that will motivate Muslims to act in their own interest to arrest this development themselves. Sharia will collapse all on its own due to its own silly inconsistencies and paradoxes just like communism did. The survival of democracy in the western world is likelwise threatened by our own set of peculier inconsitencies and paradoxes, like running around the planet preaching freedom and democracy and propping up or apologizing for tyranny and dictatorships at the same time. Its moronic. Edited March 8, 2009 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Oleg Bach Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 Appeaseniks... The only thing the west needs to contain is its propensity for constantly interfering in the rest of the world's affairs.Let the Muslims stand against Sharia themselves, I can't think of anything that will cripple their world faster than the spread of ignorance and superstition. It'll collapse all on its own due to its own inconsistencies and paradoxes just like communism did. The survival of democracy in the western world is threatened by our own set of peculier inconsitencies and paradoxes, like running around the planet preaching freedom and democracy while propping up or apologizing for tyranny and dictatorships at the same time. You can not run around being right and wrong at the same time. You can not have your cake and eat it too. What is whispered in the darkness will be proclaimed eventually from the roof tops" - With one hand you breach the trust of the world by sending aid - and with the other hand you support a mob and their dictator who hack human flesh with machetes...This is why America and other nations have no real intelligence services that actually function in a useful manner. No one is informing and no one is talkiing because we have lost all crediblity. We can not even bribe an informant...so we go on wild goose chases at great expense and disapate our resourses bring us closer to poverty and social collapse domestically. Corruption for the first while brings about weatlh - in the long run - it brings about destruction of the destroyer and abuser. An empire can not be maintained if evil rules - in the natural scheme of thing evil loses - not by much but goodness and justice prevails and corruption fails.....as we see all about us! Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 But I guess he didn't mind a Canadian field hospital in Saudi Arabia or squadrons of CF-18's attacking Iraq from Doha, Qatar. Bin Laden has named Canada as a potential target. We definately aren't squeeky clean in their eyes. In fact since we have been in Afghanistan Canada has almost certainly become a bigger target for terrorist plots, ie: the Muslim terror plot & training camp the RCMP stopped outside Toronto a couple of years ago, which the arrested said was partially in response to Canadians killing Muslims in Afghanistan. Terrorist attacks in the USA are hardly new....why should there be any surprise except for scale? Agreed. Though most people didn't give a crap until the scale was upped enormously. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
ironstone Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 Appeaseniks... The only thing the west needs to contain is its propensity for constantly interfering in the rest of the world's affairs.Let the Muslims stand against Sharia themselves, I can't think of anything that will cripple their world faster than the spread of ignorance and superstition. That said I can't think of anything that will motivate Muslims to act in their own interest to arrest this development themselves. Sharia will collapse all on its own due to its own silly inconsistencies and paradoxes just like communism did. The survival of democracy in the western world is likelwise threatened by our own set of peculier inconsitencies and paradoxes, like running around the planet preaching freedom and democracy and propping up or apologizing for tyranny and dictatorships at the same time. Its moronic. No doubt when anything terrible happens in "the rest of the world,"be it a natural disaster or some man made madness you would be one of the first one's to scream for the West to do something. Quote "Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." Thomas Sowell
Oleg Bach Posted March 8, 2009 Report Posted March 8, 2009 Terror Terror Terror. Same old thing - I never heard of terror prior to 911 - not to the commericalized degree as they all parrot now..I have one thing to say as far as the 112 dead and hundreds injured that are the sons of Canada - Is all of Afghanistan worth that many dead young men? If Canada was a family and we had but one son - is the sacrafice of that son to some backward nation on the other side of the globe appreciated and will it do any good? Would those in Afghanistan donate the blood of their young best so we could have continued freedom to shop at Walmart? This reminds me of Israel - would Israel give one of their sons to preserve a thousand of ours - of course not - so what is this blood all about ? There are two justifications for the affair in Afghanistan - to free the poor poor people from oppression - or too protect our selves from some jerks that are going to fly a plane into the CN tower - THAT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN....If we had any self worth and esteem for our selves we would admit - that one Canadian life is not worth all of Afghanistan - let it fall - damn them. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 9, 2009 Report Posted March 9, 2009 ." Care to refute our fearless leader? Would you care to quote him exactly? The Taliban cannot be defeated by military means alone anymore than the Nazi could be defeated by military means alone. And now some perspective Soviet losses 15,000/9 years = 1666 per year Nato losses 1096 / 8 years = 137 per year Seems we are doing much better.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 9, 2009 Report Posted March 9, 2009 No doubt when anything terrible happens in "the rest of the world,"be it a natural disaster or some man made madness you would be one of the first one's to scream for the West to do something. I'm all for helping out in a natural disaster...as for any man made madness that's due to anything the west has done I suppose it'll be up to the rest of world to do something about it. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Army Guy Posted March 9, 2009 Report Posted March 9, 2009 If we had any self worth and esteem for our selves we would admit - that one Canadian life is not worth all of Afghanistan - let it fall - damn them Why not Afgan, i mean our history is full of examples of Canadians giving thier lives up freely for countries like Britian, France, the rest of europe, Russia, China, Vietnam, korea, the list goes on and on in fact in may be much easier to name the countries Canada has not split it's blood for....So why not Afghanistan... This week i watched 4 of our young men being loaded onto a herc, to make the long journey back to Canada, i know the pain and tears that will come with that journey, as it starts here on the tarmac........But to these Canadian soldiers who serve here and now this is not a waste of our time, money, and lives....It is our Mission, our duty, our place in the world, as Canadian soldiers to offer a small piece of what we have in Canada, a small piece of what we take for granted every day....a small piece of peace, and hope.... I know for some Canadians it is hard to think that those two words are worth all the effort we are putting in over here....our tax dollars, and for the most part that is the Canadian contribution....But for our Soldiers, wives, friends, families, it is more than that.... it's blood, sweat and tears, and sometimes a life.....and if we are willing to give all that ....why can't the rest of Canada just get on board.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Oleg Bach Posted March 9, 2009 Report Posted March 9, 2009 Why not Afgan, i mean our history is full of examples of Canadians giving thier lives up freely for countries like Britian, France, the rest of europe, Russia, China, Vietnam, korea, the list goes on and on in fact in may be much easier to name the countries Canada has not split it's blood for....So why not Afghanistan...This week i watched 4 of our young men being loaded onto a herc, to make the long journey back to Canada, i know the pain and tears that will come with that journey, as it starts here on the tarmac........But to these Canadian soldiers who serve here and now this is not a waste of our time, money, and lives....It is our Mission, our duty, our place in the world, as Canadian soldiers to offer a small piece of what we have in Canada, a small piece of what we take for granted every day....a small piece of peace, and hope.... I know for some Canadians it is hard to think that those two words are worth all the effort we are putting in over here....our tax dollars, and for the most part that is the Canadian contribution....But for our Soldiers, wives, friends, families, it is more than that.... it's blood, sweat and tears, and sometimes a life.....and if we are willing to give all that ....why can't the rest of Canada just get on board.... Well said - the old Dutch still offer thanks as my father was thankful - very touching piece and I see your reasoning...yet if the intitial motivation at the very beginging was to go to Afhghanstan and help the people then I would be in full agreement. This mission did not start out as such but more of a favour to the Bush administration and their fight on terror...which has proven to be dishonest for the most part...so we will leave it at that. Recently I found out that one of my grandfathers was an exile of Chechnya...so I do have a bit of that lower eastern blood in my veins and if I was there - I would feel in my bones and blood that the Afghan people were family...do your best - and do not be killed...I send my love, hope and power to our brave sons...I have never been anti-military just anti-foolish. You have changed my friend. So have I - Yes I provoked because I wanted to see what was going on - This is the cleanest report thus far - not that I will ever be in agreement - but I will not bound the hands of our marshall class - never. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) "why can't the rest of Canada just get on board...." Because unlike soldiers we are able to use our independent thought and critical analysis. A soldier is expected to do what they're told by the leadership, without questioning. For that level of loyalty we are all grateful but its not our job to obey without question. It is in fact our job, to QUESTION, so that unscrupulous leaders can't have their way and abuse their power, and send troops to wars that aren't beneficial to Canadians somehow. A positive outcome in the use of war to bring about change, is not guaranteed. There are other ways to bring about change besides using military force, and there is ample evidence that you cannot change a culture or ideology such as this through the use of violence. There are even certain arguments to be made, that democracy is not POSSIBLE in a country such as Afghanistan. Nor do these islamic countries even want it, they have their reasons to fundamentally disagree with the concept of democracy. Besides this weepy rhetoric about bringing peace and democracy, we can only conclude after so many years and with increasing risk of failure, that war on these terms is unwinnable. Either we change our definition of success (already happening now), or accept the fact that we have failed outright. We are not winning, according to President Obama himself. If anything, this newbie president makes the mistake of telling the truth when he's not supposed to- Mar. 9 2009 (CNN) -- Regarding the Taliban in Afghanistan, the president said that while the situation is much more complex than in Iraq, "There may be some comparable opportunities in Afghanistan and Pakistan." "If you talk to Gen. [David] Petraeus, I think he would argue that part of the success in Iraq involved reaching out to people that we would consider to be Islamic fundamentalists, but who were willing to work with us because they had been completely alienated by the tactics of al Qaeda in Iraq," he told the Times. Petraeus is the U.S. commander in the region. But Obama added that Afghanistan's complexities -- "a less governed region, a history of fierce independence among tribes," he said -- mean that developing a new strategy "is going to be much more of a challenge." Asked if the United States is winning the war in Afghanistan, Obama said "no." http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/09/oba...iban/index.html Edited March 9, 2009 by Sir Bandelot Quote
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