Unions Call for 'Buy Canadian' Policy

[blueblood]

blueblood

It can get to the point where we don't manufacture anything and import everything. We will have no skilled labour at all. Also, I have no problem with buying a local item that can be 5 to 10 times more expensive than the cheap imported product. It just means I won't have to buy that cheap product 5 to 10 times to get the same lifespan out of the item.

I bought an M-Audio midi keyboard last week. Made in China, all plastic, and could be broken within the year from normal use, paid about 100 bucks for it. You get what you pay for. Now the other device ... it was 500 bucks (again made in china) but feels solid and can take a pounding (well except the dynamic touch pad)

Manufacturing works when it is to the benefit of the customer. Right now I buy NA made farm machinery because I think it is the best, and it is cheaper for me than overseas built farm machinery. I buy NA made trucks because foreigners don't make diesel pickups, that have my power requirements.

However in overall terms of value, imported gas cars are a much better buy than NA made ones, they are cheaper to produce and built a lot better. If NA cars were built better, then their high prices would be somewhat justified, but they are not.

If Canada wants to compete with the rest of the world in manufacturing, it must reduce its labour costs, and build better products, and charge at reasonable prices. However labour costs are high because of the energy sector and unionized nonsense.

[blueblood]

That's not what the stimulus is trying to do. Its trying to create short term jobs that add overall value to the economy. It's really quite clear. Oh, and I support international trade...I also support the clause that is added to government contracts requiring investment in Canada.

The problem is these short term jobs do not create wealth. It is merely wealth distribution. Over time, that does not grow an economy, it only slows things down. Repaving a highway does not add value because no money can be made off of it.

Should infrastructure be invested in, I think so. But to think that investing in infrastructure is the way to save an economy is nuts.

In Alberta in the 90's, they invested in the oilfields. That generated a lot of taxdollars, with those taxdollars, they then turned and spent it on infrastructure. Alberta has far more paved roads than Manitoba does. We now have a chance to invest in projects in the energy sector that can make us a lot of money and get our economy going better than before. I'd rather invest the money into these projects, and use the tax dollars that come from these new projects to invest in infrastructure than to flat out invest in infrastructure off the bat. Alberta is a prime example of that.

[Alta4ever]

The problem is these short term jobs do not create wealth. It is merely wealth distribution. Over time, that does not grow an economy, it only slows things down. Repaving a highway does not add value because no money can be made off of it.

Should infrastructure be invested in, I think so. But to think that investing in infrastructure is the way to save an economy is nuts.

In Alberta in the 90's, they invested in the oilfields. That generated a lot of taxdollars, with those taxdollars, they then turned and spent it on infrastructure. Alberta has far more paved roads than Manitoba does. We now have a chance to invest in projects in the energy sector that can make us a lot of money and get our economy going better than before. I'd rather invest the money into these projects, and use the tax dollars that come from these new projects to invest in infrastructure than to flat out invest in infrastructure off the bat. Alberta is a prime example of that.

don't both them with the truth they'll never believe it if Alberta is the model.

Edited February 13, 2009 by Alta4ever

[madmax]

What is frustrating is that many central Canadians are fixated on a ridiculously expensive manufacturing sector that cannot compete. The only part of our manufacturing sector that does somewhat well is our high tech industry and even then that carries some risks.

Canadian Industries have been competing in the Global Market for Centuries. That competition has lead to growth and decline of manufacturing. It has also lead to superior products and food processing techniques. The recent trend was for LARGE MONSTEROUS 100 BILLION companies and Billion Dollar companies to purchase small efficient Canadian Operations that survived because of Downsizing of the 80s and the adoption of lean productions techniques of the 90s. Many Canadian operations have lean management staff and a workforce that falls in the JIT category. Not all but many. The reason for this is that they WOULD NOT have survived from 1993 onward and certainly not been around 2 years later let alone 15 years.

Canadian operations and suppliers tend to be SMALL by comparision to foreign operations that use more labour, and as with many US operations, I have seen them try to implement 1970s technology in companies that are operating in the 2001 with advanced computer systems and processes. One of the reasons for this is the "FIT" in that the newly purchased Canadian Operations technical superiority is ditched because the costs to retrofit the sister operations in the US rejected.

A MY WAY or the HIGHWAY approach of many US companies is something you get used to very quickly. No matter what the rational behind the decision, be it good or bad.

Purchasing up the Canadian competition or securing a contract or resource, or if the company is a cash cow, it will be picked off like a deer in the headlights.

The truth is, Foreign companies have no interest in purchasing a dogs breakfast. During period of industrial success, the opportunities for excellent purchases was far to great.

I would like you to tell me what "HI TECH" industries you speak of???

I no of NO manufacturing that doesn't involve technology. I know of no process that doesn't involve technology.

I do recognise that every owner of a company has a price, and thus, once making the decision to sell out a profitable operation, the new purchaser can do whatever they wish, including closing down the operation if that is what they wish to do.

The manufacturing sector in Ontario is overrun by Staffing Agencies, as our the warehousing facilities.

Staffing Agencies are creating a workforce on demand, and you get what you pay for. Many of the companies that have bought into the "STAFFING SOLUTION" trend of the last 2 to 3 years, have closed their doors.

Ontario and the Federal Government stopped supporting the Industrial Sector, back when they started selling the "service sector" solution, and anyone who understands what happened to technological industries would suprise the hell out of me, because that industry was essentially wiped out competitively, a long time ago.

We still have a few jewels here and there, but as has been pointed out, anyone caught in the tech meltdown and asian shift, not a word was heard.....

For more interest on the tech subject.

Here what one creative unemployed tech guy created.....

ODD TODD TUNES AND GAMES

BTW, we still have some great gaming companies and industrial/commercial and film Graphic Companies.

They compete inspite of other low cost alternatives around the globe..

This small tech company has been around doing this kind of INDUSTRIAL work since 1987.

http://www.movinggraphics.ca/index.html

IT is technical and innovative people that are involved in the manufacturing sector.

It doesn't come with some risks..... IT comes with RISK, like any other enterprise, including Farming, which is Industrial by nature.

Central Canadians are not "Fixated" with manufacturing. Central Canadians on the whole have ignored their manufacturing sector, especially if they have no experience in it, or have no serious knowledge of how much manufacturing remains. Many Ontarians, believed the Manufacturing sector dried up in the 90s. Few know or care that they exist. It is one reason why manufacturing has been ignored, is taht the public doesn't care.

However, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or that it should be ignored for the 16% of GDP that it created for the Province.

THis is BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of Dollars that was SUCKED out of the economy in the last couple years, through predatory practices and a desire to relocate operations of successful operations. The chain effect of this, has come to roost at a time, when the Stocks have indicated that all is not well in corporate decision making of foreign interests. Those Billions sucked have caused bankruptcy to many operations dependent upon the continued success and operation of larger companies.

Like other recessions before, companies that weather a downturn are stronger. Like many companies that survived all depressions and recessions, with better success then many banks and credit unions, (Credit Unions Close without any fanfare on purpose), it is these strong companies that are desired.

You may be enjoying this, but with 71,000 people losing their jobs in ONE MONTH in Ontario, and the ROC is unlikely to buck this trend, you will see growing unemployment and MILLIONS will become unemployed.

If this is the price we pay for the sake of a foreign companies bottom line, then I have no interest in giving them money, and buying foreign.

Which is EXACTLY the position of the Federal Government.

[madmax]

However in overall terms of value, imported gas cars are a much better buy than NA made ones, they are cheaper to produce and built a lot better. If NA cars were built better, then their high prices would be somewhat justified, but they are not.

You make good points. NA Manfacturers hit on Trucks and SUVs because they offered the highest profits. They dominated the market and out performed the Non North America competitors.

Farm Equipment has been a back and forth thing for over a Century. Probably the most ironic times where in the mid late 70s and early 80s, where Farmers weren't demanding better equipment, but cheaper equipment. Lots of historical technical upgrades and advances which were the mainstay of many Ontarian Combine and Farm Tractors, were set aside, because the largest demands for equipment were coming from the West and the USSR. The Western Farmers were no longer interested in paying a higher price, because the combines were so affordable, it was easier to run them into the ground (and leave them there??) and purchase another one. Just have the A/C was important .... Much like alot of products made today, it is easier to buy cheap and discard, then pay more or repair. It was a strange era in Farm Equipment. In the 80s the Asians and Americans came forth with excellent products and many implementations came from designs purchased from the failing Ontario Farm Machinery Empires. (Much of what Conrad Black Touched, was left mortally wounded)

Asian Cars are sold at Higher prices then many comparable NA cars, (not all, but many). Many NA cars are not profitable. Many of the NA cars parts are from CHINA. Check under the seat of your GM car . Likely to be chinese.

The trucks tend to have more NA content and NA manufactured parts then their cars.

The larger the parts, the greater the likely hood of NA source. The smaller or more massed produced, the greater the chance of Chinese or Mexican origin.

However, everyone by now, should understand, that there is no such thing as a "north american" car.

[blueblood]

You make good points. NA Manfacturers hit on Trucks and SUVs because they offered the highest profits. They dominated the market and out performed the Non North America competitors.

Farm Equipment has been a back and forth thing for over a Century. Probably the most ironic times where in the mid late 70s and early 80s, where Farmers weren't demanding better equipment, but cheaper equipment. Lots of historical technical upgrades and advances which were the mainstay of many Ontarian Combine and Farm Tractors, were set aside, because the largest demands for equipment were coming from the West and the USSR. The Western Farmers were no longer interested in paying a higher price, because the combines were so affordable, it was easier to run them into the ground (and leave them there??) and purchase another one. Just have the A/C was important .... Much like alot of products made today, it is easier to buy cheap and discard, then pay more or repair. It was a strange era in Farm Equipment. In the 80s the Asians and Americans came forth with excellent products and many implementations came from designs purchased from the failing Ontario Farm Machinery Empires. (Much of what Conrad Black Touched, was left mortally wounded)

Asian Cars are sold at Higher prices then many comparable NA cars, (not all, but many). Many NA cars are not profitable. Many of the NA cars parts are from CHINA. Check under the seat of your GM car . Likely to be chinese.

The trucks tend to have more NA content and NA manufactured parts then their cars.

The larger the parts, the greater the likely hood of NA source. The smaller or more massed produced, the greater the chance of Chinese or Mexican origin.

However, everyone by now, should understand, that there is no such thing as a "north american" car.

Those "cheap" farm equipment brands got their clocks cleaned by John Deere and Case International. Manitoba based Versatile was the definition of cheap manufacturing, now it is a shadow of its former self. Why? They made junk and people got fed up with it. Machinery made in the 70's and 80's was notorious for having no A/C or very shotty A/C, they were literally ovens.

Asian cars are now sold higher, because the demand for them is higher. People are willing to pay for quality at a reasonable price. The Asians are delivering that in spades. North American cars are a bargain, their reputation as junk has dropped the price (even if they finally got with the program and made something better).

A high tech industry would be say RIM.

And like I say, more incentive for central canada to get into the energy game. The future demand for energy is expected to go through the roof. Why not cash in on that?

[Topaz]

Did anyone see the interview that the former Prez Fox did in Canada, shortly after he left the presidency, where he said the 3 biggest trading partners in the near future were China, US and Mexico. Since all the maufacturers around the world think more of $$$ than their own country, I can see were Canada is going to lose out and we will do more IMPORTING than EXPORTING because there will be very low manufacturers left in this country.

[Moonbox]

Did anyone see the interview that the former Prez Fox did in Canada, shortly after he left the presidency, where he said the 3 biggest trading partners in the near future were China, US and Mexico. Since all the maufacturers around the world think more of $$$ than their own country, I can see were Canada is going to lose out and we will do more IMPORTING than EXPORTING because there will be very low manufacturers left in this country.

While I really didn't understand half of your post, I don't think Vincente Fox has any clue what's going to happen with trade 'in the future'. Canada is and will continue to be the biggest trading partner the US has for a long time. There are about 1000 reasons for this, but I'll leave you to ponder on that.

[Michael Hardner]

eb,

At some point you have to ask yourself what business we have allowing North American companies to exploit the labour force of a country with a totalitarian government that keeps human rights and environmental protection far below the standards we apply here.

You can ask yourself, whether the people of China, or the people of North Korea are closer to democracy than they were 20 years ago.

Think about this in the context of the Kyoto Accord where it was feared we'd never be able to compete with countries like China because they'd be allowed to pollute more than us. We'd have to wait until they caught up to us we were told. So where are we today? Exactly where Kyoto critics said we'd be, unable to compete with China because our standards are too high.

Our labour costs are higher than theirs, which isn't the same thing.

I really have to shake my head at the idea that Canadians don't need more opportunities to vote or to reform our electoral system. Is it just a coincidence that many of the very same sort of people that would keep our democratic standards locked down also think our environmental and labour standards are too high?

The reforms that you're talking about basically cock the dice so that Conservatives can never ever win. How exactly this amounts to reform remains to be seen.

When people in the future ask how we let things deteriorate so badly they need to know that this really is what many perhaps most seemed to want. If the future can learn anything at all from this then they'll be better people than us.

Too much negativity. Things are better than they have ever been, period.

[fellowtraveller]

[i'd rather invest the money into these projects, and use the tax dollars that come from these new projects to invest in infrastructure than to flat out invest in infrastructure off the bat. Alberta is a prime example of that.

/quote]

Alberta has -like all governments- an abysmal record of buying into businesses, which is why they very rarely get involved now and have divested thgemselves of many turkeys.

They are also smack in the middle of their own homegrown massive infrastructure program, some $22 billion worth of projects overall. It is, admittedly coincidentally, great timing as the oilpatch gears down-way down- the govt is undertaking many huge projects that will utilize newly idle contractors and tradesmen.

[madmax]

Those "cheap" farm equipment brands got their clocks cleaned by John Deere and Case International. Manitoba based Versatile was the definition of cheap manufacturing, now it is a shadow of its former self. Why? They made junk and people got fed up with it. Machinery made in the 70's and 80's was notorious for having no A/C or very shotty A/C, they were literally ovens.

Asian cars are now sold higher, because the demand for them is higher. People are willing to pay for quality at a reasonable price. The Asians are delivering that in spades. North American cars are a bargain, their reputation as junk has dropped the price (even if they finally got with the program and made something better).

A high tech industry would be say RIM.

And like I say, more incentive for central canada to get into the energy game. The future demand for energy is expected to go through the roof. Why not cash in on that?

I don't disagree with anything you have put forth. What you have described this time is more accurate to the industry then if you read your last post without the above info.

RIM is near close to an anamoly with regards to tech production. IIRC the wages at RIM for Soldering is around $10-$12/ hour.

RIM is one of those companies that if purchased by a larger company would not make it through the night in Waterloo.

I am not certain how much they have in what used to be our Silicon Valley, Ottawa, But certain designing and plastic injection moulding is standard fare.

Now, If I were to explain to you HOW MANY 1000s of people who do Plastic Injection Moulding that are out of work, well, at least 1 or 2 might get a job at RIM.

However, as many people overlook, RIM is a service company. And if two products are similarly priced, and the government chooses a foreign product of similar value for ALL its Civil Servants.... instead of RIM, then you see why some people might take offense that it is important that we support an Asian company that pays wages for the month that week pay in a week. Our Taxes would benefit the Asian Company, good for them.

RIM is currently still hiring and as of this month, still weathering the storm and going forward. Seems some of those legal battles put RIM in greater danger then they currently face.

On March 3, 2006, RIM announced that it had settled its BlackBerry patent dispute with NTP. Under the terms of the settlement, RIM has agreed to pay NTP US$612.5 million in a “full and final settlement of all claims.” In a statement, RIM said that “all terms of the agreement have been finalized and the litigation against RIM has been dismissed by a court order this afternoon. The agreement eliminates the need for any further court proceedings or decisions relating to damages or injunctive relief

See also: NTP, Inc.#RIM patent infringement litigation

All the same skills and trades and business knowledge or RIM exists in industrial operation across Ontario and Canada.

RIM also has a strong Asian division.

RIM is a tech industry. And many of operations that are shutting down, are using their blackberries for that very last email.

Here is the reality of HI Tech

Life After the High-tech Downturn: Permanent Layoffs and Earnings Losses of Displaced Workers

The high-tech sector was a major driving force behind the Canadian economic recovery of the late 1990s. It is well known that the tide began to turn quite suddenly in 2001 when sector-wide employment and earnings halted this upward trend, despite continued gains in the rest of the economy. As informative as employment and earnings statistics may be, they do not paint a complete picture of the severity of the high-tech meltdown. A decline in employment may result from reduced hiring and natural attrition, as opposed to layoffs, while a decline in earnings among high-tech workers says little about the fortunes of laid-off workers who did not regain employment in the high-tech sector

The findings suggest that the high-tech meltdown resulted in a sudden and dramatic increase in the probability of experiencing a permanent layoff, which more than quadrupled in the manufacturing sector from 2000 to 2001. Ottawa-Gatineau workers in the industry were hit particularly hard on this front, as the permanent layoff rate rose by a factor of 11 from 2000 to 2001. Moreover, laid-off manufacturing high-tech workers who found a new job saw a very steep decline in earnings. This decline in earnings was well above the declines registered among any other groups of laid-off workers, including workers who were laid off during the "jobless recovery" of the 1990s. Among laid-off high-tech workers who found a new job, about four out of five did not locate employment in high-tech, and about one out of three moved to another city. In Ottawa-Gatineau, many former high-tech employees found jobs in the federal government. However, about two in five laid-off high-tech workers left the city.

I know why in a number of tech bursts, why techies get upset that NO ONE gave a rats ass about them when there jobs disappeared.

[madmax]

More busting the tech bubble myth...

Tech industries are jobs too

These people are shell shocked’

Job hunting centre looks to expand to help laid-off high tech workers

January 23, 2009

......OTI serves over 15,000 unemployed high-tech workers either directly or through networking affiliates

The task force organizes unemployed high tech workers into groups of 10, who work together to explore the job market and hunt for new employment.

“We’re looking at expanding our program across Ontario,” said Iseman. “We need to put the money into the retraining of technology workers.”

For example, an out-of-work telecommunications engineer could return to university for two years study in a related field, such as chemical engineering, said Eric Dormer, a co-ordinator of OTI’s business engagement task force.

“You don’t just get one or two jobs out of that – you get spinoffs,” he said. “You end up with these engineers designing whole new technology systems or working with teams on new ways of doing things that could spin off new companies.”

Re-training one person could potentially result in 50 jobs, he said.

“No one’s done this before,” Dormer said. “The market is so bad, we have to find ways of getting jobs.”

Laid off high-tech workers need training to transfer their skill-set for use in related industries, such as green technology and computer coding.

We’re all volunteering our time. Because we’re all unemployed and underemployed high tech people and we want to get a job.”

THere are some interesting ideas, some optimists in that paragraph, and alot of brave faces.

And more tech

Markham, TO lab likely targets of IBM layoffs says analyst

By: Nestor E. Arellano and Patrick Thibodeau - ITWorld Canada (NA) (28 Jan 2009)

The biggest targets will be the Markham headquarters, IBM's Toronto Software Lab and other R&D facilities because the company is looking to cut production and operation costs," said Andy Woyzbun, lead analyst at research firm Info-Tech Research Group, in London, Ont.

That the layoff reports at IBM come after the company announced strong fourth quarter earnings for 2008, also cast some doubts that the economic downturn is the reason behind the jobcuts, said Woyzbun.

More Hi Tech

Layoffs at Mitel this morning

483 bodies ...

http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com/293033325423399.php

A few more nails in the high-tech coffin. The start of the "beginning

of the end" of the total disappearance of high-tech in Ottawa.

Quite frankly the High Tech Trend has been in decline.

Automated Tooling Systems with well over 1000 of technical and skilled people, a company with many employees across Ontario, is but a Shell of itself. The Tech is gone.

[madmax]

While I really didn't understand half of your post, I don't think Vincente Fox has any clue what's going to happen with trade 'in the future'. Canada is and will continue to be the biggest trading partner the US has for a long time. There are about 1000 reasons for this, but I'll leave you to ponder on that.

You best come up with those 1,000 reasons, because there is every reason to believe that Canada will be a Large component of trade and resources to the US, however it is highly unlikely that Canada will be in either the 1st or 2nd trading position within a few years. China and Mexico will over take us and stay there. Since Japan hasn't been able to crack the code, after the 80s, there is little reason to believe they will make the top 3.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_exp_...y-exports-to-us

#1 Canada: $55,664,000,000.00

#2 Mexico: $33,543,000,000.00

#3 China: $31,136,800,000.00

[Army Guy]

CDN Media

These are just some of the contracts our government has put towards Canadians.

Ottawa media

Ottawa media

NS media

Ontario media

[punked]

CDN Media

These are just some of the contracts our government has put towards Canadians.

Ottawa media

Ottawa media

NS media

Ontario media

Great! How about some more!

[Oleg Bach]

The big cheese guys that sit in a tower down town look out the window towards the east and and say ----hey - I have a billion bucks - and if I get some tweek overseas to work for 50 cents an hour I can have two billion bucks - awh to hell with my country men if it effects them...free trade is good for 1 tenth of one percent of the population and eventually devesating to the rest as we now see.

[Michael Hardner]

The big cheese guys that sit in a tower down town look out the window towards the east and and say ----hey - I have a billion bucks - and if I get some tweek overseas to work for 50 cents an hour I can have two billion bucks - awh to hell with my country men if it effects them...free trade is good for 1 tenth of one percent of the population and eventually devesating to the rest as we now see.

Oleg,

This has been happening, it its current incarnation, for 20 years now.

Free trade is good for:

The workers overseas who get jobs created.

The Canadian workers who can now export to overseas markets.

Canadian consumers who see lower prices for goods and now have more disposable income.

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg,

This has been happening, it its current incarnation, for 20 years now.

Free trade is good for:

The workers overseas who get jobs created.

The Canadian workers who can now export to overseas markets.

Canadian consumers who see lower prices for goods and now have more disposable income.

In the tech age we have become bean counters..Look at China and their overflow of poor product - our importers bring it in at a cheap cost and sell it at a premium. Who benefits? It looks like those that do the actually buying and selling and importation..That's not everyone! I mentioned garden rakes recently - It looked Canadian - smelled Canadian and appeared sturdy -- one stroke across the soil and the end came off - usually the hard wood handle is firmly jammed into the metal and a screw is put in for extra measure...I examined the rake and saw that they did not take the time to fit the handle properly - nor was their a screw...and on closer examination I saw exactly 3 droplets of clue. I said to myself - I bet this is made in China...found the small print on what appeared to be a made in Canada label and sure enough - "made in China"

They were specific about exactly how much glue to use to save money and cost...I guess if you skip on a million droplets of glue - you make an extra thousand bucks...THEN I had to use my skill and labour to re-attatch the rake head. Workers overseas get jobs created --- great for them...so what are the Canadian workers actually exporting...raw material? natural resourses? Maybe a few car parts? Canadian consumers get lower prices at Walmart...that's nice - I actually picked up a good quality pair of jeans there --- half the price. BUT most of the stuff is junk - shelves of junk. You can not use the term "disposable income" seeing with the recession there is no such thing...and if those who have disposbale income - let them deposit and dispose of it HERE. Millions of jobs are lost in of late in North America - what will we do with the workers "retrain" them?

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg,

This has been happening, it its current incarnation, for 20 years now.

Free trade is good for:

The workers overseas who get jobs created.

The Canadian workers who can now export to overseas markets.

Canadian consumers who see lower prices for goods and now have more disposable income.

In the tech age we have become bean counters..Look at China and their overflow of poor product - our importers bring it in at a cheap cost and sell it at a premium. Who benefits? It looks like those that do the actually buying and selling and importation..That's not everyone! I mentioned garden rakes recently - It looked Canadian - smelled Canadian and appeared sturdy -- one stroke across the soil and the end came off - usually the hard wood handle is firmly jammed into the metal and a screw is put in for extra measure...I examined the rake and saw that they did not take the time to fit the handle properly - nor was their a screw...and on closer examination I saw exactly 3 droplets of clue. I said to myself - I bet this is made in China...found the small print on what appeared to be a made in Canada label and sure enough - "made in China"

They were specific about exactly how much glue to use to save money and cost...I guess if you skip on a million droplets of glue - you make an extra thousand bucks...THEN I had to use my skill and labour to re-attatch the rake head. Workers overseas get jobs created --- great for them...so what are the Canadian workers actually exporting...raw material? natural resourses? Maybe a few car parts? Canadian consumers get lower prices at Walmart...that's nice - I actually picked up a good quality pair of jeans there --- half the price. BUT most of the stuff is junk - shelves of junk. You can not use the term "disposable income" seeing with the recession there is no such thing...and if those who have disposbale income - let them deposit and dispose of it HERE. Millions of jobs are lost in of late in North America - what will we do with the workers "retrain" them? Click computers and count the pennies - as those in third world nations actually do the real work --- America with it's dealing with China and others is now again indirectly dependant on what is really slave labour - and nothing good comes from slave labour that is under the guise of free trade - their workers are not free.

[bush_cheney2004]

....America with it's dealing with China and others is now again indirectly dependant on what is really slave labour - and nothing good comes from slave labour that is under the guise of free trade - their workers are not free.

There is much "truth" in that.....slavery wasn't about racism...it was an economic system. Why have we tolerated the miserable conditions and pay levels for agricultural workers? Because we wanted cheap food.

Time to freshen up the Labor Theory of Value.

[Michael Hardner]

Oleg,

In the tech age we have become bean counters..Look at China and their overflow of poor product - our importers bring it in at a cheap cost and sell it at a premium. Who benefits?

I just answered that question.

It looks like those that do the actually buying and selling and importation..That's not everyone! I mentioned garden rakes recently - It looked Canadian - smelled Canadian and appeared sturdy -- one stroke across the soil and the end came off - usually the hard wood handle is firmly jammed into the metal and a screw is put in for extra measure...I examined the rake and saw that they did not take the time to fit the handle properly - nor was their a screw...and on closer examination I saw exactly 3 droplets of clue. I said to myself - I bet this is made in China...found the small print on what appeared to be a made in Canada label and sure enough - "made in China"

The assertion that things made in China have lower quality is unproven. China exports many things, so I don't know that your rake story proves anything.

They were specific about exactly how much glue to use to save money and cost...I guess if you skip on a million droplets of glue - you make an extra thousand bucks...THEN I had to use my skill and labour to re-attatch the rake head. Workers overseas get jobs created --- great for them...so what are the Canadian workers actually exporting...raw material? natural resourses? Maybe a few car parts? Canadian consumers get lower prices at Walmart...that's nice - I actually picked up a good quality pair of jeans there --- half the price. BUT most of the stuff is junk - shelves of junk. You can not use the term "disposable income" seeing with the recession there is no such thing...and if those who have disposbale income - let them deposit and dispose of it HERE. Millions of jobs are lost in of late in North America - what will we do with the workers "retrain" them? Click computers and count the pennies - as those in third world nations actually do the real work --- America with it's dealing with China and others is now again indirectly dependant on what is really slave labour - and nothing good comes from slave labour that is under the guise of free trade - their workers are not free.

The workers will go to industries that can compete - Toyota instead of GM, software instead of rakes etc.

If we try to grow pineapples and Jamaica tries to make maple syrup then both countries are wasting resources rather than specializing.

[Oleg Bach]

So the rake example does not fly ----can we mention lead...yummy ---- You mention that China has good products ---- Bought a can of peaches ---- from China - could not eat them - tasted like they were stewed in water out of a sewer. Much like some immigrants will eat fish out of our lakes that are sewage dumps...because where they come from our sewers look like sweet clear pools of water in comparison. The standards in China are third world - and if you breach this low level of quality control say by creating tainted milk product for children - they have a solution - they kill you...even their levels of corruption are less sophisticated as are their punitive measures...why trade with a nation that will execute you for saying the wrong thing and then sell your kidneys?

[Michael Hardner]

Strange, Olech, that you are against trade with China yet you buy their products.

I suspect that many Canadians who speak out against free trade are like you, in that respect.

[Oleg Bach]

Strange, Olech, that you are against trade with China yet you buy their products.

I suspect that many Canadians who speak out against free trade are like you, in that respect.

The can of peaches came from a food bank - apparently the super market could not sell them ----secondly -- the rake was brought to me by a land lord who's property I beautified -- and the jeans - ex-wifes credit card ---- I never bought a damned thing - I get others to do that - and even for free - I don't want it. So with my explaination --- you are wrong on that one. If you take all the plasitc product in Walmart and melt it down - you could build a 50 storey tower - which will fall over and go to the landfill sight...very little that comes from China is of quality.

[Michael Hardner]

Microsoft x-box, Nike, Reebok, Motorola are just some of the brands made in China.

Do you boycott Microsoft ?