Freedom, Health Care, Glasnost & Perestroika

[Canadian Blue]

In fact, one could argue that is exactly what is going on right now, especially in Quebec. The NDP certainly don't have the cojones to say anything about the increased privatization in Quebec right now and the Liberals never would anyways.

Which is odd because I could have sworn Liberals everywhere in the late 90's were talking about how Alberta was a cold hearted and evil place for Bill 11.

Say jdobbin, why did the LPC bash Alberta so much due to healthcare reform yet hasn't made a peep about Quebec?

[White Doors]

Which is odd because I could have sworn Liberals everywhere in the late 90's were talking about how Alberta was a cold hearted and evil place for Bill 11.

Say jdobbin, why did the LPC bash Alberta so much due to healthcare reform yet hasn't made a peep about Quebec?

The degree of privatization in Quebec would make Ralph Klein blush.

[OddSox]

I'm not sure about Quebec, but in Ontario:

- Doctors

- Walk-in Clinics

- Xray Clinics

- Blood Test Clinics

- Dentists

- Optometrists

- Pharmacies

- Prescription Drugs

All private and for profit. Some paid by the government system, some paid by the individual.

[Smallc]

I'm not sure about Quebec, but in Ontario:

All private and for profit. Some paid by the government system, some paid by the individual.

Here, the Hospitals are private not for profit / charity and the rest is a mix of for profit and not for profit.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Smallc

[jdobbin]

A single-payer system with private elements is not the solution offered south of us. It's a continuation of the Canadian system that has worked well in the past.

We have a lot of private elements in our system. Exactly what other parts are we looking at? And will it mean less in terms of public support?

Edited December 16, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

Which is odd because I could have sworn Liberals everywhere in the late 90's were talking about how Alberta was a cold hearted and evil place for Bill 11.

I think you forget how many Albertans were concerned with the bill as well. Klein's support took a big hit and major organizations like the Dcotor's associations of both Canada and Alberta were against it.

Say jdobbin, why did the LPC bash Alberta so much due to healthcare reform yet hasn't made a peep about Quebec?

Chretien didn't say that it would be a violation of the healthcare act but he said would withhold transfer payments if it was.

As far as I can tell, Quebec does not violate the healthcare act. Do you think it does?

[jdobbin]

I have never advocated for an end of public financing, nor would I. What I am arguiing for is greater private involvement in the delivery of it - where it makes sense. What I am tired of is screams of UNITEDSTATEDGREEDUNINSUREDMALPRACTICE!!!1111 everytime someone mentions it.

I can't recall saying that. But I have quite a few people here advocate for the end of public financing of healthcare.

I advocate private-for-profit delivery of healthcare both inside the public system and outside of it.

The Quebec Supreme court agrees with me.

I don't know that it will end wait times since that was in part brought on by the government limiting how many doctors were getting trained. I don't know that it would limit costs because people would be paying health insurance or out of pocket plus their taxes.

I'm all for doing something different but the privatization people talk about usually seems to be about ending public financing in favour things like mandatory private insurance.

[Canadian Blue]

I think you forget how many Albertans were concerned with the bill as well. Klein's support took a big hit and major organizations like the Dcotor's associations of both Canada and Alberta were against it.

Klein took such a hit that in fact that he would later win the provincial election with a 74 seat majority and 60% of the popular vote. Come on jdobbin, just admit that the Liberals like to use the west as a whipping boy but won't dare touch Quebec.

Chretien didn't say that it would be a violation of the healthcare act but he said would withhold transfer payments if it was.

As compared to all the transfer payments that go out of Alberta to Quebec which ironically enough now has private healthcare. Say jdobbin are the Liberals infallible with no error all the time?

I'm all for doing something different but the privatization people talk about usually seems to be about ending public financing in favour things like mandatory private insurance.

Their would still be an element of public funding similar to what the Swiss do.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Canadian Blue

[Smallc]

Their would still be an element of public funding similar to what the Swiss do.

Don't care. no way I want to have to deal with private insurance when I go to the doctor. No matter what, everyone should still have the option of using the public system. The private system should simply be something extra if we ever allow it to exist in a meaningful way. As it is right now, the only people making the decisions are the patients and the doctors, as it should be.

[jdobbin]

Klein took such a hit that in fact that he would later win the provincial election with a 74 seat majority and 60% of the popular vote. Come on jdobbin, just admit that the Liberals like to use the west as a whipping boy but won't dare touch Quebec.

C'mon, admit it. The bill was unpopular in Alberta and Klein was trying to make the Liberals the reason for it collapsing when Chretien said it might not violate the health care act.

As compared to all the transfer payments that go out of Alberta to Quebec which ironically enough now has private healthcare.

As I said, Chretien was not sure that Bill 11 was a violation of the health care act. If it wasn't, there would have been no loss of transfer payments. As far as I know, Quebec doesn't violate the healthcare act. Was what Alberta proposed identical?

The reason the bill died was not because of Liberal threats in Ottawa. It was because Albertans were against them. Try to keep that in mind.

Say jdobbin are the Liberals infallible with no error all the time?

Think I could say the same to you. Chretien was quite specific that he didn't know if Klein's bill was a violation of the healthcare act. Klein tried to whip up anti-Liberal spirit in Alberta to get support for the bill but Albertans themselves were massively against it. They were probably against it because Klein had already cut lots of supports for public healthcare and the fear was he was going to do more of that.

Their would still be an element of public funding similar to what the Swiss do.

Which is why Ottawa said they were not sure it was violation of the healthcare act.

Why blame the Liberals for failure of the bill when Albertans themselves were steamed at the bill?

Edited December 16, 2008 by jdobbin

[Oleg Bach]

Don't forget about our soviet style day care system...Woman and men are so enslaved and conditioned - instead of lobbying the banks to get proper mortgage rates - so a parent can stay home and be the REAL parent instead of that insidious term "care giver".... Everyone including that communist Layton forget...it's not day care that we need but the right and freedom to raise our own children.

[ToadBrother]

Come on jdobbin, just admit that the Liberals like to use the west as a whipping boy but won't dare touch Quebec.

Don't include the West as a whole in this. Alberta is not THE WEST. BC, despite its BC Liberal (read BC conservative) government, is very much behind the public system, as are the Prairie provinces. Nothing infuriates me more than a bunch of g*dd*mned Albertans with their particularly loathing for the Canada Health Act talking about "The West" as if their own views were somehow common to the other three Western provinces.

If you Alberta Tories think that Albertans don't give a sh*t about the Canada Health Act or about public health care, then bloody well just say "screw it Ottawa" and go it alone. But you won't, because you know just as well as anyone that even in Alberta this notion that the public system is evil and that people should pay their own way won't fly. That's why Klein backed down. It's just cheap talk, but even if it isn't, not even the BC Liberals, who are nearly as fiscal right wing as the Alberta Tories, wouldn't dare do it because a. they don't have the money and B. they'd be thrown out of office (what with elections next May and those evil socialist BC NDP already showing signs of growing support).

Edited December 16, 2008 by ToadBrother

[Michael Hardner]

I'm all for doing something different but the privatization people talk about usually seems to be about ending public financing in favour things like mandatory private insurance.

Actually, jdobbin, it's more often a case of somebody with a vested interest painting all privatization with the same brush, and saying 'no two tiered healthcare' !

A private hospital might be an interesting thing to see work, but we don't even know what the waiting lists are like at all public hospitals yet so we won't have a good way to measure success/failure of the program.

[Smallc]

A private hospital might be an interesting thing to see work

Go to your nearest hospital and take a look around. Then you'll know.

[ToadBrother]

Actually, jdobbin, it's more often a case of somebody with a vested interest painting all privatization with the same brush, and saying 'no two tiered healthcare' !

A private hospital might be an interesting thing to see work, but we don't even know what the waiting lists are like at all public hospitals yet so we won't have a good way to measure success/failure of the program.

How precisely would it work? Would the taxpayer still effectively be funding it, so that this whole "private health care" claim would amount to nothing more than contracting out? If it is truly private, how do you assure that such hospitals don't bleed the public system of doctors and nurses? Will the public system effectively become a health care ghetto?

Private healthcare advocates talk a lot about waiting lists, as if that is the only metric of health care. Well, the US, for instance, may not have the wait lists we have, but there's still a reasonable proportion of the population that is underinsured or uninsured who basically bankrupt themselves for serious procedures. So how would this private system be prevented from doing that, or would poor people be funneled off to the public system (see that in relation to ghettoizing the public system), in effect destroying the equality of access provision.

I'm not necessarily against private healthcare, but it cannot come at the expense of the public system.

[jdobbin]

A private hospital might be an interesting thing to see work, but we don't even know what the waiting lists are like at all public hospitals yet so we won't have a good way to measure success/failure of the program.

Many of the hospitals around here are private.

I have access online to see what waiting lists are for procedures, don''t you?

[M.Dancer]

au contraire

Ditto for Honda

Read much?

Honda spokesman Ed Miller said the cuts will take place at five of Honda’s seven plants in the US and Canada. Employees at the plants will be given other tasks or can take paid or unpaid vacation time, he said. No layoffs will result from the cuts, he said.

[Charles Anthony]

Read much?

Please keep discussion of the automotive industry out of this thread.

[Mr.Canada]

Many of the hospitals around here are private.

I have access online to see what waiting lists are for procedures, don''t you?

Two tier health care is the wave of the future. Right out of the Reform policy plan.

[punked]

Two tier health care is the wave of the future. Right out of the Reform policy plan.

Along with Senate reform. Remember how that went right?

[Canadian Blue]

Don't include the West as a whole in this. Alberta is not THE WEST. BC, despite its BC Liberal (read BC conservative) government, is very much behind the public system, as are the Prairie provinces. Nothing infuriates me more than a bunch of g*dd*mned Albertans with their particularly loathing for the Canada Health Act talking about "The West" as if their own views were somehow common to the other three Western provinces.

Unfortunately, which is why our system will likely be bankrupt because people are more receptive to emotion than reality. Most people like yourself refuse to look at any reform of the system simply because you don't want to be "American."

C'mon, admit it. The bill was unpopular in Alberta and Klein was trying to make the Liberals the reason for it collapsing when Chretien said it might not violate the health care act.

No, it wasn't. It was unpopular amongst the looney left, but not amongst all Albertan's. As for Jean Chretien, I think the LPC is well known for their attitude which is essentially screw the west.

But I think the criticism by Chretien was fairly frivilous considering the fact many Liberals opt for US style healthcare if they require it.

As well Bill 11 didn't collapse.

Think I could say the same to you. Chretien was quite specific that he didn't know if Klein's bill was a violation of the healthcare act. Klein tried to whip up anti-Liberal spirit in Alberta to get support for the bill but Albertans themselves were massively against it.

Don't worry my friend, I think smug Liberals such as yourself should take more notice of the colonies once in a while. Liberals don't like Alberta, we're far too supportive of business. After all I believe your own party has made the effort to state that Alberta is single handedly destroying the planet earth.

Which is why Ottawa said they were not sure it was violation of the healthcare act.

Why blame the Liberals for failure of the bill when Albertans themselves were steamed at the bill?

Because the Federal Liberals were rallying against any healthcare reform in Alberta. After all even dear Jean Chretien who I can only assume is infallible to you stated that he prefers to work with people from the east instead of western polticians.

Now please I think you have to go to a Liberal Party meeting where you can discuss how to solve the scourge of firearms use amongst Ducks Unlimited members and talk about how competition in healthcare is always a bad thing.

[jdobbin]

No, it wasn't. It was unpopular amongst the looney left, but not amongst all Albertan's. As for Jean Chretien, I think the LPC is well known for their attitude which is essentially screw the west.

Utter tripe. It wasn't just the left complaining in Alberta.

But I think the criticism by Chretien was fairly frivilous considering the fact many Liberals opt for US style healthcare if they require it.

More false claims.

As well Bill 11 didn't collapse.

Then what are you complaining about?

Don't worry my friend, I think smug Liberals such as yourself should take more notice of the colonies once in a while. Liberals don't like Alberta, we're far too supportive of business. After all I believe your own party has made the effort to state that Alberta is single handedly destroying the planet earth.

More crap from liars.

Because the Federal Liberals were rallying against any healthcare reform in Alberta. After all even dear Jean Chretien who I can only assume is infallible to you stated that he prefers to work with people from the east instead of western polticians.

Citation for the crap?

Now please I think you have to go to a Liberal Party meeting where you can discuss how to solve the scourge of firearms use amongst Ducks Unlimited members and talk about how competition in healthcare is always a bad thing.

Next time you attend a Conservative party meeting, I expect you to have better crap to distribute.

[Canadian Blue]

Utter tripe. It wasn't just the left complaining in Alberta.

Most of it was the left. For some reason I don't see people who find merit in competition over bureaucracy being against individuals having the chance to get faster healthcare delivery.

More false claims.

Belinda Stronach.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...070914/20070914

Then what are you complaining about?

I'm simply complaining when the federal government demonizes one province yet then is oddly silent for another simply because it can't elect a member in Alberta.

More crap from liars.

I'm referencing the ads which attacked "big polluters" [aka. a certain resource rich province] while touting the benefits of welfare.

Citation for the crap?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2000/11/23/elexn001123.html

Next time you attend a Conservative party meeting, I expect you to have better crap to distribute.

No need to. My party isn't foolish enough to suggest that gun violence in Toronto can be solved by targeting Ducks Unlimited.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Canadian Blue

[blueblood]

No need to. My party isn't foolish enough to suggest that gun violence in Toronto can be solved by targeting Ducks Unlimited

LoL

[jdobbin]

Most of it was the left. For some reason I don't see people who find merit in competition over bureaucracy being against individuals having the chance to get faster healthcare delivery.

Please show me a citation that most of the protest was from the left. If it had been, Klein would have ground them to dust since the left accounts for what: A tiny minority in the province?

Belinda Stronach.

What BS. Opted for? It was a referral to a place where the surgery was done no place else as well.

Opted for is what people do to jump ahead of people. I see no evidence of that.

I'm simply complaining when the federal government demonizes one province yet then is oddly silent for another simply because it can't elect a member in Alberta.

Klein was demonizing Ottawa to try and get his bill passed with full support.

I'm referencing the ads which attacked "big polluters" [aka. a certain resource rich province] while touting the benefits of welfare.

Harper talked about going after big polluters at an even greater rate while spending like crazy across the country. Upset about that?

Chretien was joking around. He was an ass a lot of the time.

No need to. My party isn't foolish enough to suggest that gun violence in Toronto can be solved by targeting Ducks Unlimited.

No, your party wants to end the gun registry even when it has support from the police who access it thousands of time a day.

Edited December 17, 2008 by jdobbin