What if we agreed to re-locate Israel?

[M.Dancer]

Speak for yourself...

The "note the absence of" was in reference to this question "The purpose actually needs to be explained to you?"

Learn how to read.

I have read many of your posts? Some of them are written properly? Some are not? You seem to feel that placing a question mark at the end of the sentence makes it a question? In fact, it makes it an error in punctuation? I am leaning towards blaming the trend towards up speak? Where a rising inflection makes every sentence sound like a question? Either way, posing a question that is neither in the interrogative or the imperative is bad English?

So for your ediffication, a basic primer of posing a question, which should go a long way in helping you not sound like a teenaged nerd?

A question may be either a linguistic expression used to make a request for information, or else the request itself made by such an expression. This information is provided with an answer.

Questions are normally put or asked using interrogative sentences. But they can also be put by imperative sentences, which normally express commands: "Tell me what 2 + 2 is"; conversely, some expressions, such as "Would you pass the butter?", have the grammatical form of questions but actually function as requests for action, not for answers. (A phrase such as this could, theoretically, also be viewed not merely as a request but as an observation of the other person's desire to comply with the request given.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question

Edited October 21, 2008 by M.Dancer

[Charles Anthony]

Everybody,

Stop the banter and discuss the topic.

[Mr.Canada]

This isn't even practical at all. Probably explains why this topic is so cold.

[Rue]

You're point being...? Jews lived in the region and got along relatively well with the Muslims until the Zionist movement came along in the late 19th century and tried to displace the Muslims?

I don't know what his point was but mine is your comment that everything was peechy hunky dory for Jews in the Muslim world as usual is an example of how you talk of things you do not understand.

Here's a hint. Dhimmitude. Now run along and try read up on what you try sould like an authority on. Boo!

[myata]

Would Israel agree? Also a question.

[JB Globe]

I don't like to dwell too much on hypotheticals, and even less on impossibilities, so I won't comment on the idea of moving the current state of Israel.

What I will suggest is that had Israel in fact been created in some of the alternative locations (had Zionist leaders not been able to create it in Palestine) there would be a huge difference in terms of how the world, specifically the Western world views Israel and Jews.

There's no doubt in my mind that if Israel were created in Europe, and Israelis were politically oppressing several million Christians for several decades, that instead of Goi's viewing us as model-minorities, we'd instead be subject to a high level of anti-semitism - socially and politically.

After all, anti-semitism in Western Europe & NA really only started to decline after WWII, and half of us had to be wiped off the face of the earth for it to start decreasing.

[jbg]

After all, anti-semitism in Western Europe & NA really only started to decline after WWII, and half of us had to be wiped off the face of the earth for it to start decreasing.

That is a horrific post.

[JB Globe]

That is a horrific post.

Fantastic rebuttal - why don't you explain why it's so horrific? Oh wait, that's right - you don't do responses, just one-liners.

To re-iterate: The Holocaust is the Ha-Shoah is the Holocaust. It was horrible - however we as Jews cannot ignore the fact that the Holocaust is directly related to both the creation of Israel & to the decline in antisemitism in Western Europe and North America. The reason for the later is of course because of the Allies' animosity towards the Nazis, and since Jews were the victims of the Nazis, we in turn became the allies of the Allies. Also - there was a general sense in society that in the face of the Holocaust that overt antisemitism was now quite tasteless (because of course, it WAS culturally acceptable throughout the '30's) considering the type of horror that the Jewish people had just been through.

I don't think any of my other earlier points need any clarification - go ahead and respond . . . Or not, which would be your usual game.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Fantastic rebuttal - why don't you explain why it's so horrific? Oh wait, that's right - you don't do responses, just one-liners.

To re-iterate: The Holocaust is the Ha-Shoah is the Holocaust. It was horrible - however we as Jews cannot ignore the fact that the Holocaust is directly related to both the creation of Israel & to the decline in antisemitism in Western Europe and North America. The reason for the later is of course because of the Allies' animosity towards the Nazis, and since Jews were the victims of the Nazis, we in turn became the allies of the Allies. Also - there was a general sense in society that in the face of the Holocaust that overt antisemitism was now quite tasteless (because of course, it WAS culturally acceptable throughout the '30's) considering the type of horror that the Jewish people had just been through.

I don't think any of my other earlier points need any clarification - go ahead and respond . . . Or not, which would be your usual game.

I heard a theory that the so-called Holocaust was engineered by the rich Jews (whom the Fascists didn't touch) to unsettle the poorer Jews from their warm nests in Europe and get them to move into the hellhole that is now Israel.

[M.Dancer]

I heard a theory that the so-called Holocaust was engineered by the rich Jews (whom the Fascists didn't touch) to unsettle the poorer Jews from their warm nests in Europe and get them to move into the hellhole that is now Israel.

There are a lot of idiots out there, by repeating them you run the risk of being mistaken for one.

[JB Globe]

I heard a theory that the so-called Holocaust was engineered by the rich Jews (whom the Fascists didn't touch) to unsettle the poorer Jews from their warm nests in Europe and get them to move into the hellhole that is now Israel.

Not true.

However there are always crackpots, and some of those crackpots happen to include Jews who think that the Holocaust was part of God's plan to establish the state of Israel - these folks tend to be either ultra-orthodox and/or extreme form of Zionist.

Of course, there are ultra-orthodox who think the state of Israel is an abomination as well - that it can only be created by God and that since Zionists (humans) created it that it is blasphemy.

[jbg]

That is a horrific post.

Fantastic rebuttal - why don't you explain why it's so horrific? Oh wait, that's right - you don't do responses, just one-liners.

I don't think any of my other earlier points need any clarification - go ahead and respond . . . Or not, which would be your usual game.

Neither you nor anyone will dictate what posts I respond to, when and how.

There's no doubt in my mind that if Israel were created in Europe, and Israelis were politically oppressing several million Christians for several decades, that instead of Goi's viewing us as model-minorities, we'd instead be subject to a high level of anti-semitism - socially and politically.

You are posing hypotheticals that are at direct variance from the reality. The reality is that the Jews are the subject of envy, given that their values and practices gave them greater economic success and internal cohesion. This was resented as being somehow improper. What was "horrific" about your post was the enabling, or excusing, of this envy/hatred. There is so much sympathy for more or less failed groups or cultures, ranging from now alchohol-soaked "indigenous" people in Australia and North America, to Muslims in Europe, to the so-called "Palestinians". Rare, "man-bites-dog" mis-steps by Israel are blown to being the moral equivalent of horrific attacks on buses, etc. Similarly, your post excuses the Holocaust on the basis of hypothetical Jewish "oppression" of Christians.

After all, anti-semitism in Western Europe & NA really only started to decline after WWII, and half of us had to be wiped off the face of the earth for it to start decreasing.

Your post is further horrific for the reason that you imply (even though you say that you are Jewish) that dead Jews are better for the image of Jewry than living Jews. Edited October 30, 2008 by jbg

[kengs333]

After all, anti-semitism in Western Europe & NA really only started to decline after WWII, and half of us had to be wiped off the face of the earth for it to start decreasing.

Or it could be the fact that tens of millions of Europeans were killed, and nobody wants to go through that again even if it means ridding Europe of Jews, which I think many in Europe--especially in the East--would still like to see happen.

Also, I think the Holocaust has caused Jews to be much more discrete when they aren't the dominant culture in a given area. Talk to anyone from Eastern Europe prior to WWII and you'll learn that Jews who were in positions of power used to be much visible, if you will, especially under the Communists, and this tended to breed much hatred and resentment.

[GostHacked]

Jews would have been screwed either way. Take a part of Germany to create the jewish state. Western societies would show an increase in anti-semitism towards jews. Now that they are in the middle east, you have a whole new load of people becoming anti-semites.

But the question is why people are anti-semetic towards the jewish population as a whole. Personaly, and I will say this again, I do not support or recognize Isreal. I don't beleive it is needed. The jews do not need their own spot on the map. And it was not the locals in the middle east who had a vote or any kind of say when Isreal was created. The stance I take on Isreal is that if you are going to create your home in the hostile wilderness that is the middle east, don't expect the locals to like you, expect them to hurt you. So playing the victim falls on my deaf ears because of how the state was created in the first place. Many look over this and say it is a stupid point. But it is completely valid and can help unserstand why Isreal is always on guard or on the attack. So essentially whoever created Isreal brought this new suffereing onto the jews. it is not the locals fault, they already hate jews, someone just gave them a closer target.

I know jews are drawn to Isreal, and many move there to become part of Isreal. But you gotta ask yourself. Why move to a place where you know you are going to always be a target? Why do that to yourself? For example. if a jewish family from the UK, the US or Canada moves to Isreal to become part of it, they should expect the consequences. Chances are that stuff won't happen to them in places like Canada, the US or the UK, or even Germany now for that matter.

So how about this thought. What the jews are doing to the Palestinians, the Germans had previously done to the jews (if you can accept this comparison for this purpose). Take their land, means of living, ect ect and systematicly dispose/displace them. The state of Isreal is larger than what was allocated to them by the mandate. And the borders of Isreal are not yet 100% defined. Why is that? I do not see this as fair. It does not give a reason for the jews to be exansionist in this aspect. We can talk all we want about the adjacent countries attacking Isreal, but I equate it to throwing a piece of meat to the wolves. it's gonna get eaten.

I am not anti-semetic. I have jewish friends. I actually think the religion is interesting (based on my utter lack of knowledge on any religion) but I do not support Isreal. What happend to the jews during the holocaust is unacceptable no matter how it is looked at. But does that give them the right to do what they are doing now?

I am being as honsest as I can here.

[M.Dancer]

But the question is why people are anti-semetic towards the jewish population as a whole.

Without knowing the answer to that question you can't have an educated opinion why or why not the Jews need a homeland.

[Oleg Bach]

Without knowing the answer to that question you can't have an educated opinion why or why not the Jews need a homeland.

Firstly Israel is for the most part a secularist state. I have spoken to a few young Israelis and have heard the statement - "I do not believe in God but believe in the state of Israel" - if this mentality is prevailant - then the protective doctrine of the choosen people is null and void - If God and justice and goodness in not paramount in the mind of the majority of Jews then the prtective title of Judean should be stripped away.

We forget as the American enforcers do that the basis of the "homeland" was to shelter and secure good and Godly people -not to create a money laundering centre or a destablizer to control the middle east ensure enough confusion to guarenteen oil. With globalism being unstoppable - either give all a home land or none - If you give aid to Israel that amounts to a billion - and you give their Palistinian brothers one million - you create a slave state called Palisitne - the problem is economic not religious - correct me if I am wrong - was it not the Jews who are so fond of mentioning their ancient escape from bondage - yet they make bond their old brothers in Palistine?

Make it simple either aid all or none! Same as the problem with the prolonged bogged down war in Iraq - IF the Americans had dropped 100 thousand dollars on each and every Iraqi family - they would be shopping at Walmart and all would be happy in a western sort of way - Plus it would be cheaper than waging this damned war - that destroyed the oldest culture on earth - talk about culture envy.

[JB Globe]

Also, I think the Holocaust has caused Jews to be much more discrete when they aren't the dominant culture in a given area.

I disagree that the Holocaust caused Jews to be more discrete, case in point, NYC: we're not exactly on the DL there. Also, if you look at the synagogues built in Toronto before WWII vs. after, there's a huge difference in terms of how visible they are as synagogues.

ie - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3244/260101...e65e53b.jpg?v=0

vs. The Beth David Synagogue in North York that has walls covered from the roof to the ground with stylized Hebrew letters.

[White Doors]

Maybe we should relocate the palestinians instead

[JB Globe]

Neither you nor anyone will dictate what posts I respond to, when and how.

Exactly - if you want to continue to make inflammatory posts then duck out of the thread, and/or offer one-liners about how sucky certain posts are - that's totally your prerogative. It's also my prerogative to note when you do that.

You are posing hypotheticals that are at direct variance from the reality.

Isn't this entire thread about a hypothetical? I didn't see you complaining earlier, maybe I missed it.

The reality is that the Jews are the subject of envy, given that their values and practices gave them greater economic success and internal cohesion.

True - this is where the historical kind of antisemitism comes from, the kind that has followed Jews around wherever we've been since Roman times. Of course, this is entirely different from what's happening today

What was "horrific" about your post was the enabling, or excusing, of this envy/hatred.

Go ahead and quote me on where I did this - I think you're making an empty claim to try and smear me. No where did I enable/excuse antisemitism.

There is so much sympathy for more or less failed groups or cultures,

If there's less "sympathy" (or rather, concern for the human rights of) Jews, it's because by and large we're doing very well compared to other minority groups. If we're talking about why Israel receives more than its share of criticism than compared with other states, than there's a few reasons:

1 - Us Jews ourselves cultivated the image of Israel as a special nation, of the bastion of democracy in the Middle East, as an exciting new nation that will inspire the world . . . Then the intifada happened.

2 - Europe & NA expect more out of Israel than they do out of other nations, partly because as the chosen folks we're in their books supposed to have a higher commitment to the values God prescribed for mankind. That means more criticism when Israel does something wrong, but it also is directly related to why the US is so willing to give Israel boatloads of cash.

3 - There's the unfortunate truth that the situation on the ground is that a group of people who have been persecuted for most of our recent history are now oppressing the political freedom of another group of people. And as we know, hypocritical actions make for great books and newspaper articles.

ranging from now alchohol-soaked "indigenous" people in Australia and North America, to Muslims in Europe, to the so-called "Palestinians".

There's a difference between "failure" and oppression & discrimination.

Similarly, your post excuses the Holocaust on the basis of hypothetical Jewish "oppression" of Christians.

Sorry, but you can't just blatantly lie. Go ahead and quote me, or admit that you're just trying to smear me.

My point was: That had Israel been created in a Christian-majority region, and had Israel treated the Christian inhabitants in the manner it treated the Muslim inhabitants of the current state of Israel, you would see an increase in the amount of antisemitism from Christians in the region - and also in Christian-majority countries in general.

This isn't a radical concept - oppression or discrimination of one people by another people spawns dislike for the oppressor by those who identify with the oppressed.

Your post is further horrific for the reason that you imply (even though you say that you are Jewish) that dead Jews are better for the image of Jewry than living Jews.

What on earth are you talking about? Again - QUOTE ME.

All I said was that there is an undeniable link between the Holocaust and the creation of the state of Israel. And yes, sorry to bring up a historical fact - that the Holocaust prompted the world community to take a more serious look at Zionism, and yes - even caused people to be more sympathetic to the Zionist cause. Acknowledging this impact doesn't mean that the Holocaust was a good thing, that it was worth it, or that any rational person would have wanted it to occur.

It just means that Zionist leaders played the hand they were dealt and translated it into something that helped them achieve their goals.

[GostHacked]

Maybe we should relocate the palestinians instead

Why not, how about a chunk of Ontario, or maybe a US state, or Europe .... But if you are going to relocate them, what do you expect the end result to be?

[BC_chick]

Jews would have been screwed either way. Take a part of Germany to create the jewish state. Western societies would show an increase in anti-semitism towards jews. Now that they are in the middle east, you have a whole new load of people becoming anti-semites.

[...]

I am not anti-semetic. I have jewish friends. I actually think the religion is interesting (based on my utter lack of knowledge on any religion) but I do not support Isreal. What happend to the jews during the holocaust is unacceptable no matter how it is looked at. But does that give them the right to do what they are doing now?

I am being as honsest as I can here.

Interesting synopsis Gost. I've never thought of it like that.

Blaming the victim of a crime is a slippery slope which should be approached with care, but there is something to be said about personal responsibility.

For example, if a woman wears a skirt that's too short, or if she goes up to a man's room late at night, does that mean she deserves to be raped? Of course she doesn't, she expected the man to be a decent human being and she had no idea he'd turn into an animal.

How about if she went to his room knowing that he had previous convictions and a history of sexual assault? Does that exuse the man's behaviour if he rapes her? Noway, of course not! But can we then question her judgement in her decision to put herself in such a bad situation?

More so than before.... even though the man's actions are still wrong.

[eyeball]

(GostHacked @ Oct 31 2008, 11:00 AM)

But the question is why people are anti-semetic towards the jewish population as a whole.

Without knowing the answer to that question you can't have an educated opinion why or why not the Jews need a homeland.

Is it safe to assume you do know the answer to this question?

This is a sincere post Morris, I'm not trying to bait you. If you know of an educated opinion as to why Jews do not need a homeland perhaps you could share it with us. Even if you disagree with it you should still be able to present it or provide a link to it. I've heard and read more than a few but so far as I know you've rejected every single one. Are there any that you've entertained, even grudgingly?

[jbg]

Jews would have been screwed either way. Take a part of Germany to create the jewish state. Western societies would show an increase in anti-semitism towards jews. Now that they are in the middle east, you have a whole new load of people becoming anti-semites.

It may ever be the Jews' fate to suffer anti-Semitism in any but the more open English-speaking and Scandinavian societies. The simple fact is that Judaism is a religion based upon law, and "the book". This perhaps gave the Jews an immediate advantage in the increasingly organized world that others perceived and still perceive as unfair. I will continue addressing this issue in response to your next sub-segment.

But the question is why people are anti-semetic towards the jewish population as a whole. Personaly, and I will say this again, I do not support or recognize Isreal. I don't beleive it is needed. The jews do not need their own spot on the map.

Many Jews felt that way during the Jews' "European era". In fact, I have a very touching memoir written by the family of a tennis partner which escaped from Germany to Australia, leaving Germany January 1, 1939, right after the Kristallnacht pogroms. The memoir is divided into three parts:

1. From roughly 1888-1925, or before the Nazis;
   
2. 1938 - The Kristallnacht Pogrom (which they couldn't finish because of the emotional impact of writing it; and
   
3. 1939-52 - The flight to Australia and learning to speak Australian, learning the customs, etc.
   

The first segment ends with the recitation of the Passover finale, stating "therefore he never said on Seder night: “Le shono haboh be-Jerusholajim,” but said: “Le shono haboh in Guetersloh”. Given the horrors that transpired only a few years later, it was too much to ask the Jews to return to the towns and villages whose people so willingly sent them to die, or to ask those people to accept the Jews back. Further, their homes and businesses had been expropriated. Thus, Israel is necessary.

And it was not the locals in the middle east who had a vote or any kind of say when Isreal was created. The stance I take on Isreal is that if you are going to create your home in the hostile wilderness that is the middle east, don't expect the locals to like you, expect them to hurt you. So playing the victim falls on my deaf ears because of how the state was created in the first place. Many look over this and say it is a stupid point. But it is completely valid and can help unserstand why Isreal is always on guard or on the attack. So essentially whoever created Isreal brought this new suffereing onto the jews. it is not the locals fault, they already hate jews, someone just gave them a closer target.

Except for the Americas, Australia and certain Scandinavian countries the Jews were not welcome, and received a similar reception. Should we just go somewhere and die?

I know jews are drawn to Isreal, and many move there to become part of Isreal. But you gotta ask yourself. Why move to a place where you know you are going to always be a target? Why do that to yourself? For example. if a jewish family from the UK, the US or Canada moves to Isreal to become part of it, they should expect the consequences. Chances are that stuff won't happen to them in places like Canada, the US or the UK, or even Germany now for that matter.

Don't be so sure about the UK or Germany.

So how about this thought. What the jews are doing to the Palestinians, the Germans had previously done to the jews (if you can accept this comparison for this purpose). Take their land, means of living, ect ect and systematicly dispose/displace them. The state of Isreal is larger than what was allocated to them by the mandate. And the borders of Isreal are not yet 100% defined. Why is that? I do not see this as fair. It does not give a reason for the jews to be exansionist in this aspect. We can talk all we want about the adjacent countries attacking Isreal, but I equate it to throwing a piece of meat to the wolves. it's gonna get eaten.

I'm not sure how your analogy works.

I am not anti-semetic. I have jewish friends. I actually think the religion is interesting (based on my utter lack of knowledge on any religion) but I do not support Isreal. What happend to the jews during the holocaust is unacceptable no matter how it is looked at. But does that give them the right to do what they are doing now?

I am being as honsest as I can here.

Thanks for your honesty. I don't think you believe you are anti-Semitic.

[jbg]

Exactly - if you want to continue to make inflammatory posts then duck out of the thread, and/or offer one-liners about how sucky certain posts are - that's totally your prerogative. It's also my prerogative to note when you do that.

Without trying to figure out who started the flaming, can't it stop? Read my last post, right above this one, for my response to the merits of your post.

[JB Globe]

Without trying to figure out who started the flaming, can't it stop?

No, you don't get to get out of jail free.

Either retract the following statements:

"your post excuses the Holocaust on the basis of hypothetical Jewish "oppression" of Christians"

"Your post is further horrific for the reason that you imply (even though you say that you are Jewish) that dead Jews are better for the image of Jewry than living Jews."

Or, alternatively, back up these allegations by quoting my posts and showing directly where I did such things.

I'm quite tired of you accusing myself and others of antisemitism on the basis of us saying things you don't like or disagree with. Stop crying wolf.

Read my last post, right above this one, for my response to the merits of your post.

Sorry, why are you referring me to your response of another person's post? Especially when it has nothing to do with the points I raised earlier? Are you really going to just make wild accusations about me "morally justifying the holocaust" and then bugger off?

I really can't understand why you continually start things you can't finish, it's really tearing up your credibility.