Omar Khadr's Sister on Hunger Strike

[Topaz]

Omar, there's no creditable evidence that he did kill anyone but the US HAS to sacrifice someone to show not all is lost with this prison. Harper either doesn't have the gonads to go up against the US OR HE 100% agrees with the US. I think MOST Canadian feel he should be brought home. Once the prison is closed all prisoners are being shipped over to Afghanistan and what will happen over there the world will be shut out once again.

[White Doors]

Omar, there's no creditable evidence that he did kill anyone but the US HAS to sacrifice someone to show not all is lost with this prison. Harper either doesn't have the gonads to go up against the US OR HE 100% agrees with the US. I think MOST Canadian feel he should be brought home. Once the prison is closed all prisoners are being shipped over to Afghanistan and what will happen over there the world will be shut out once again.

I'm Canadian and I don't think he should be brought 'home'. Anyone else?

Edited October 14, 2008 by White Doors

[Army Guy]

Yes there is ... by international law. If you don't know that, I suspect you are just a wannabe, not a real soldier

Maybe you can provide a source, i mean you seemed to be making a big claim, step up to the plate....Show us an inter-national law or convention where it states a Child gets a free pass on a battlefield....

Again, I will say I am glad Omar came across US soldiers not ours, if you are an example. We know executions happen. They executed the man with him, shot Omar twice in the back and were about to finish him off when someone realized how young he was.

WOW...Another claim, was it an execution, or was he within his rights as a soldier on the battlefield...remember this is not paintball it's real life....And did someone realize how old he was or was it that he spoke english that saved his life....

eta - Rereading your posts, it is clear that you know nothing about the facts of this case at all. There is NO evidence that Omar killed anyone. Read some reports before you spout off in ignorance, please. It is quite likely that Omar is not guilty of anything.

Your right nobody has it on tape , caught red handed, AK in Hand, grenade pin in his mouth ....Not that easy,it is a battlefield after all, it did see serveral air strikes, a prolonged gun battle , but hey if grissim from CSI was there he would have this already sown upso what do do know is he was there....that not far from where he was found a wpn was found, that the man dead beside him was killed earlier in the gunfight....so who was left, maybe the man on the grassy knoll....what else do we know he's a known terrorist , we can prove that thanks to his home made tape yes left behind at the scene of the crime....on the tape it proves he and other planted mines and IED's , later recovered by US EOD teams....

But hey we are Canadian we don't charge little boys with crimes as big as terrorism....i mean we are having problems wrapping our minds around murder....I don't hate muslims as you suggested, but don't see this whole Kahdr thing going any where good, not for our country, not when handled by the US government or if handled by ours....

[WarBicycle]

I'm Canadian and I don't think he should be brought 'home'. Anyone else?

I'm with you. He can no longer work because of his injuries, he would cost the province a fortune in medical bills and welfare payments. Let him rot in SuperMax.

[WarBicycle]

1977 Additional Protocols to the four Geneva Conventions and the Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989): Both use a 15-year minimum age for recruitment and participation in hostilities. Article 38 of the Convention is derived from Article 77(2) of Additional Protocol I of 1977 to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949. It states:

1. States Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for rules of international humanitarian law applicable to them in armed conflicts which are relevant to the child.

2. States Parties shall take all feasible measures to ensure that persons who have not attained the age of 15 years do not take a direct part in hostilities.

3. States Parties shall refrain from recruiting any person who has not attained the age of 15 years into their armed forces. In recruiting among those persons who have attained the age of 15 years but who have not attained the age of 18 years, States Parties shall endeavour to give priority to those who are oldest.

Additional Protocol II (applicable in non-international armed conflicts) is similar. Article 4(3)© states:

"children who have not attained the age of 15 years shall neither be recruited in the armed forces or groups nor allowed to take part in hostilities."

The Convention's Article 38 is an anomaly in using a 15-year age minimum; in all other respects, the Convention's general definition of a child is any person under the age of 18 (unless under the law applicable to the child, majority it attained earlier). (Article 1)

The Convention applies to all children in all circumstances, with the exceptions only of the United States and Somalia - the two countries not yet parties to it.

Had Omar Khadr been less than 15-years-old he would be have been considered a child soldier.

[JB Globe]

No. It means you're second guessing a soldier on the ground in Afghanistan about the nature of the war.

1 - You horned in on the conversation by choice.

2 - He's a big boy and I'm sure he can handle himself.

3 - You still haven't actually responded to any points I've raised.

Edited October 15, 2008 by JB Globe

[JB Globe]

And your making my point here for me, why is your child different from the millions around the globe, because your special, or the rest of the children did not have parents, or communities that taught them anything, like what was right and wrong....…....

If we're in agreement that child soldiers are often abused and/or manipulated into becoming child soldiers, than how can you sit there and tell me that the actions they take (at the command of those people who have manipulated them / abused them) are actions they've made completely of their own free will?

How can you make the argument that a 15 year old should be considered an adult when they take a life but not when they want to drink a beer? Or drive a car?

I'm reminded of a rebel group, I believe it was the RUF in Sierra Leone / Liberia, who used to get their child soldiers addicted to drugs and then withhold their next hit until they completed a task (say, killing or raping someone). By your book, a kid who was brought up in this mess and who was 15 would be held totally responsible for what they did, and in an adult court at that? It seems ridiculous and cruel.

I'm the nasty, pessimistic, cold hearted SOB, who has just started his third tour in Afgan, I'm the guy who has seen a 10 year old bury a axe into the back of a capts head, I'm the guy that has seen a 12 year put 5 rounds into a comrades back,( now in wheel chair) because he steped over a young boy during a house clearing operation we all thought was to young to be a combatant....I'm the guy who has seen children strapped full of explosives walk into a crowded market and detonate himself, im the guy that seen a close friend tears steaming down his face, with our Sgt major screaming in his ears shot that prick before he gets any closer" You see that prick was less than 10 years old, he was approached our position, with an explosive chest rig on with enough explosives to send our entire position to Allah, and no he did not get a pass, nor did we that day…

And so your solution to all of this is, what? To disregard international law? To treat a 10 year old as if he was an adult? How will jailing a 10 year old, or 15 year old for life, some of whom you claim are willing to blow themselves up to kill you, deter them?

I say it won't do a thing, because the people that abuse & manipulate these kids will just find more fodder for their agenda. And of course, these folks WANT you to act more like them, the more barbaric our tactics become, the more they're proven right when they claim we're barbarians. The more people join their ranks, and the more people back home grow disillusioned with the whole scheme.

If you are in fact in the military, I feel for you - it must be incredibly frustrating to be in a conflict that has no military solution but where your superiors don't seem to have any other real ideas.

over here you become cold hearted or you get carried home. Why is that so hard for the very few of you to come to the same conclusion, that things are not the same around the globe….things are not always peachy and rosy.

The Canadian public was sold on the Afghanistan mission because we were supposedly doing something noble over there - what you're telling me is that when shit hits the fan our commitment to international law and human rights get tossed aside.

If that's the case, I don't really see any reason to be over there. I was confident we could fight a war and maintain our dignity, and keep a clear line between us and the terrorists. Now what you're telling me is in order to beat them we have to slowly become more and more like them. It starts with treating teenagers like adults in court, then we ship prisoners we suspect of being Taliban to the Afghanis to rough up and interrogate, be they innocent civilians in the wrong place or not, then we start seeing civilians in general as the enemy . . .

Then we don't have anyone left to save in Afghanistan, because we've turned the entire country into our enemy.

And in a perfect world that would work would it not..... we are talking about a kid who grew up in a combat zone, not your hometown....where killing was the norm, from a very very young age he has been exposed, to life and death everyday...where at the age of 15 he is a man, not the little boy you see him at, he's attended terrorist training camps, been on live combat patrols, planted IED's and mines to KILL, and been in combat where people lived and died....and he is very much aware of his actions, and the consequences….

You might be a soldier, but you're not a child psychologist, and I've yet to see a SINGLE STUDY that proves that children that are exposed to traumatic events and/or have an abusive upbringing mature quicker than kids who don't experience these things. The only thing that these events do to a child is make them more f'd-up.

You don't become an adult when you imitate the actions of the adults around you - that goes for a child shooting a gun, or a teenager having sex. If a five year old murders his father because he imitated what Yosemite Sam does on TV with his gun, is he an adult? No, because he didn

Reread the laws and conventions, there is no age limit mentioned once you fall into the combatant category your free game, your a target like everyone else. it is not until after the battle is over that children are afforded any special privileges....

That's what I'm talking about - after the battle is over, and after the battle is over, a 15 year old isn't an adult and shouldn't be tried in adult court.

Afgan young boys as young as 10 years old are receiving military training, they are going on live combat patrols, they are brainwashed into thinking killing infidels like Canadian soldiers is alright by mom and dad,

Which is EXACTLY why it's ridiculous to try and say that they are as responsible for their actions as an adult is. Even you agree they've been brainwashed.

Edited October 15, 2008 by JB Globe

[Army Guy]

If we're in agreement that child soldiers are often abused and/or manipulated into becoming child soldiers, than how can you sit there and tell me that the actions they take (at the command of those people who have manipulated them / abused them) are actions they've made completely of their own free will?

Because I seen it to many times, nobody directed that young boy to sink an axe into that capts head...nobody told that small boy to roll over and put 5 rounds from an ak into my friends back....nobody told a duo of bombers to plant IEDS night after night until 4 of my close friends got blown up....and nobody was making them talk when just after capture they bragged about sniping Canadian soldiers...no this they did on their own, and had been doing for quit some time now....like I said it's the culture here, like it or not but at 15 they are men, and they are making those major decisions daily...

And while I will freely admit I know nothing of the medical or mental profession to make qualified statements....I've got enough time in this country to tell you of their customs and habits....

How can you make the argument that a 15 year old should be considered an adult when they take a life but not when they want to drink a beer? Or drive a car?

A 15 year old takes a beer or a drives, spank him, slap him, ground him, nobody dies....but if he picks up a wpn , points it, pulls the trigger, he did so knowing that he was going to kill....he knew before he pulled that trigger...he then should be held accountable for his actions..

And so your solution to all of this is, what? To disregard international law?

I don't have a solution, I'm a soldier that everyday is spent just trying to make it to the next....I'd like to hunt down all those scumbags down, and feed them to the same child monsters they have created....but that's not going to happen...so for now I stay alive, and keep my platoon alive....

I have never advocated breaking any law, in fact we take allot of pride in the fact that we don't, or we go out of our way to ensure we don't break any laws....I still get the impression that you think we broke inter-national law by killing that child bomber,. your wrong, and while I deal with our actions every night in my dreams, one day I will find the SOB that packed that kid up and sent him our way....maybe that day I will break a few laws....

I'm reminded of a rebel group, I believe it was the RUFF in Sierra Leone / Liberia, who used to get their child soldiers addicted to drugs and then withhold their next hit until they completed a task (say, killing or raping someone). By your book, a kid who was brought up in this mess and who was 15 would be held totally responsible for what they did, and in an adult court at that? It seems ridiculous and cruel.

Only there is no drugs, hostages, or anyone ensuring a task gets completed, allot of these kids roam free, on the streets, or in small military outposts, free to come or go when they please...But since we are all here, what of those victims, you know the ones of rape, murder, and all the other sick shit they do....do we all gather and in one group hug it's over, all is forgiven....we sing go home, wait out, to the next war....for you at home maybe, for me that gets deployed to all these shitholes…I don't hug all that well, I'm guarded, sceptical, cautious....i'I'l stand in the back ground, and wait thanks..

How will jailing a 10 year old, or 15 year old for life, some of whom you claim are willing to blow themselves up to kill you, deter them?

It keeps them off the battle field, it's one less I have to worry about, it's one less I have to see in my dreams, and it's one less I might have to pull the trigger on....

And of course, these folks WANT you to act more like them, the more barbaric our tactics become, the more they're proven right when they claim we're barbarians. The more people join their ranks, and the more people back home grow disillusioned with the whole scheme

How are our tactics becoming more barbaric, I know your not talking about our legal rights in defending ourselves. so what tactics have changed that are more barbaric...you mean keeping a 15 year old locked up...or trying to punish him with adult laws....OK I some what agree,

As for the people back home , hey they became disillusioned once we stepped off the plane for the first time and entered combat....Canadians soldiers involved in combat holly sweat Jesus....lets bring them home....the mission is the same, it's principles are the same, nothing has changed...except the people back home....

If you are in fact in the military, I feel for you - it must be incredibly frustrating to be in a conflict that has no military solution but where your superiors don't seem to have any other real ideas.

Oh there is a military solution, just not one that is not ham strung by the Canadian public. besides this is not really a war, run by the military it's a few politicians playing general...had the Canadian public been on board the whole time we would have been that much closer to ending this....

The Canadian public was sold on the Afghanistan mission because we were supposedly doing something noble over there - what you're telling me is that when shit hits the fan our commitment to international law and human rights get tossed aside.

Give me one example....Canadian soldiers are involved in combat everyday we are here, and we have yet to let any Canadian down, broke any laws, or shamed our nation in any way....By the same token don't judge us unless you've walked in our boots... yes I've done allot of things that I'm not proud of here, happens every time I pull the trigger....but we have also done truck loads of good as well....

[DogOnPorch]

1 - You horned in on the conversation by choice.

2 - He's a big boy and I'm sure he can handle himself.

3 - You still haven't actually responded to any points I've raised.

1. Being this is a forum and I'm a member, no big surprise there.

2. Ad hominem attacks should be avoided...sort of like nukes. Doesn't mean they won't be used, it seems.

3. Your "points" are laughable. It looks to me that you want Afghanistan to be Canada from some sort of a legal POV. In Afghanistan, "International Law" is doled out from the barrel of a gun until chaos no longer rules. Calling Army Guy, who's there, an idiot for pointing this simple fact out, is pretty lame.

Amazing that some folks would like to see Canadian-like law & order in Afghanistan while not giving anyone anyway of arriving at that goal. Amazing again that some folks think that kids don't grow up quicker in situations that are a threat to life and limb. Sort of like the famous Python scene below...one learns to survive.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Voice Over: In this film we hope to show how not to be seen. This is Mr. E.R. Bradshaw of Napier Court, Black Lion Road London SE5. He can not be seen. Now I am going to ask him to stand up. Mr. Bradshaw will you stand up please?

[in the distance Mr Bradshaw stands up from behind some bushes. There is a loud gunshot as Mr Bradshaw is shot in the stomach. He crumples to the ground.]

Voice Over: This demonstrates the value of not being seen.

---Monty Python:

[WarBicycle]

Day 8 of her hunger strike and not a single message.

[Radsickle]

I doubt whether the lack of posts in the starving girl's blog means that no one cares, if that's what you were insinuating. I dont' think it would be right to post anything, might encourage her.

Luckily, we still have public health care. When she passes out from lack of food, a Canadian hospital will fix her.

It's a sticky topic. I'm going back to the topic about Omar's plight making me ashamed of my country...

Edited October 16, 2008 by Radsickle

[betsy]

Myata, Tango and JBGlobe:

Do you classify child-soldiers as abused children? I'm just curious.

Please explain why whether you answer yes or no. Thanks.

[myata]

I think that we already established that if one wants to be consistent, they have to either agree that child soldiers are still, children, or declare everybody 15 and up an adult. I.e. let them do all the things adults do, and judge them on par with adults.

Anything less than that, i.e people who insist that 15 can't have full knowledge of their sexual behaviour, but should bear full responsibility if they're armed and sent to fight in a combat, is a sheer ideological hypocricy.

Edited October 16, 2008 by myata

[Army Guy]

I think that we already established that if one wants to be consistent, they have to either agree that child soldiers are still, children, or declare everybody 15 and up an adult. I.e. let them do all the things adults do, and judge them on par with adults.

So because we are not consistant in every decision such as when they can drive, drink, get married, etc etc that they can not be judged as adults for adult crimes...or serious crimes such as murder, rape, etc...etc...becauase we have not been consistant, is that it.....

Anything less than that, i.e people who insist that 15 can't have full knowledge of their sexual behaviour, but should bear full responsibility if they're armed and sent to fight in a combat, is a sheer ideological hypocricy.

Thats a pretty weak piont in which to hang your whole debate on...Anyone with a teenager in the house will tell you, they have full knowledge of thier sexual being.....they'll also tell you that they are quit capable of telling you or making major decisions such as "shall i take a life"....

[myata]

Thats a pretty weak piont in which to hang your whole debate on...Anyone with a teenager in the house will tell you, they have full knowledge of thier sexual being.....they'll also tell you that they are quit capable of telling you or making major decisions such as "shall i take a life"....

No, I mean there's a plethora of things in which we consider teenagers less than fully capable, here, in Canada. Including the age of concent that's just been bumped up to 16 by this concervative government. Same one that does not want to recognize Khadr as a child soldier, when he was 15.

Do you want to apply a different rule to the teenager in combat in Afghanistan? Why? Because what we're doing here, in Canada, is wrong, and we should treat them all as adults? Or because we should hold one law for us, here, and another one - for "them", there?

[betsy]

I think that we already established that if one wants to be consistent, they have to either agree that child soldiers are still, children, or declare everybody 15 and up an adult. I.e. let them do all the things adults do, and judge them on par with adults.

Anything less than that, i.e people who insist that 15 can't have full knowledge of their sexual behaviour, but should bear full responsibility if they're armed and sent to fight in a combat, is a sheer ideological hypocricy.

Adults don't normally kill people. Full intention to kill or maim cannot be compared to sex or smoking or watching porno films.

It is sad that some children are programmed to hate and kill. Sad it may be, in some cases, we can't let emotions rule.

His crime happened during combat. He is lucky that he sits awaiting trial.

Tell me how will you handle this scenario: You are a soldier. A 10 year old strapped with bombs is rushing at you with determination. You warn him to stop. He refuses to stop and just keeps on coming.

What will you do?

Edited October 16, 2008 by betsy

[betsy]

No, I mean there's a plethora of things in which we consider teenagers less than fully capable, here, in Canada. Including the age of concent that's just been bumped up to 16 by this concervative government. Same one that does not want to recognize Khadr as a child soldier, when he was 15.

Do you want to apply a different rule to the teenager in combat in Afghanistan? Why? Because what we're doing here, in Canada, is wrong, and we should treat them all as adults? Or because we should hold one law for us, here, and another one - for "them", there?

Comparing it to the age of sexual consent is not right. Children are not killers!

Some children can be tried as adults in our society depending on the crime....so nothing really new there.

It is Khadr's father who got his own son brainwashed to become a killer. What was his mother doing during that time? What about his older sister? Did they do anything to stop the father from doing this to his son...or did they abet and were actually his accomplice?

Edited October 16, 2008 by betsy

[Peter F]

Adults don't normally kill people. Full intention to kill or maim cannot be compared to sex or smoking or watching porno films.

It is sad that some children are programmed to hate and kill. Sad it may be, in some cases, we can't let emotions rule.

His crime happened during combat. He is lucky that he sits awaiting trial.

Tell me how will you handle this scenario: You are a soldier. A 10 year old strapped with bombs is rushing at you with determination. You warn him to stop. He refuses to stop and just keeps on coming.

What will you do?

I would let him blow me to smithereens. But thats just me.

[Mr.Canada]

I don't understand all these tears over this family.

They are Terrorism supporters and Al-Quida sympathizers and supporters and former(so they say) members. These people should never have been allowed into Canada in the first place. If the proper checks were done they wouldn't have been.

I have no sympathy for her whatsoever.

[kimmy]

Omar, there's no creditable evidence that he did kill anyone but the US HAS to sacrifice someone to show not all is lost with this prison. Harper either doesn't have the gonads to go up against the US OR HE 100% agrees with the US. I think MOST Canadian feel he should be brought home. Once the prison is closed all prisoners are being shipped over to Afghanistan and what will happen over there the world will be shut out once again.

Most? I've never met a Canadian who thought Omar should be brought back to Canada.

-k

[White Doors]

I would let him blow me to smithereens. But thats just me.

you would, would you?

lol

[myata]

Just stopped at a convenience store on the way to work. There's a big notice, can't buy sigarettes for anybody under 19. And of course, can't buy a drink while under 21.

But can get a gun, fight in a combat, and be tried as an adult for that, while still under 16.

These conservative folks can be such a ridiculous people. And the scariest thing is that they don't even notice.

And of course, we haven't yet explored this whole notion of "taking arms against foreign liberators as a war crime". That concept deserves a long hard look at as well. E.g. applying it to other cases one'd have to brand the resistance in WWII as a war crime organization. But I already said earlier, there's probably not a single truth, principle or moral that hasn't been stretch to the extent that doesn't have any meaning anymore.

[Army Guy]

Just stopped at a convenience store on the way to work. There's a big notice, can't buy sigarettes for anybody under 19. And of course, can't buy a drink while under 21.

But can get a gun, fight in a combat, and be tried as an adult for that, while still under 16.

These conservative folks can be such a ridiculous people. And the scariest thing is that they don't even notice

Look this is really not that hard to figure out Myata, A gang of 15 year olds break into your house, they repeatly rape the women, then kill everyone except you, because they need someone to tell thier story........when you can look me in the eyes, and without emotion say those boys are just kids, they did not know what they where doing and should not be tried in an adult court for adult crimes then i might be a convert....

when you the victim say i forgive them, they are kids, they get a pass....

Cildren have been tried in adult courts for adult crimes before, and here is where your experts come in, if they can prove they did know right from wrong, and could make those major decisions then i say yes they should be tried and punished in adult courts....nobody gets away with capital crimes....and serving a few years in juvee is not punishment...

[Army Guy]

I would let him blow me to smithereens. But thats just me.

your act would solve nothing, except provide the Taliban with more postive media coverage and life would carry on in Afgan like any other day....

[WarBicycle]

She's beginning to get some leftard support, it's time to bring her back down earth and remind her what the average Canadian thinks of her family.